[TimA]

"All about PlayReady 3.0, Microsoft's secret plan to lock down 4K movies to your PC"

http://www.pcworld.com/article/2908...t-plan-to-lock-down-4k-movies-to-your-pc.html

Microsoft is looking at a hardware DRM for Windows 10 PCs. The article discusses how Microsoft will attempt to lock down 4K content through PlayReady 3.0 which will not work without new PC hardware (no implementation specifics). It even mentions that you may not be able to rip content:

"Older generations of PCs used software-based DRM technology. The new hardware-based technology will know who you are, what rights your PC has, and won’t ever allow your PC to unlock the content so it can be ripped."

Of course this is early information and who knows what will really happen. I just know that it becomes more difficult to play content on a PC as the resolution and technology advances. I still remember obtaining DeCSS and tweaking my PC to get good DVD playback.

 

[stanger89]

http://www.myce.com/news/sony-hack-reveals-aacs-2-0-ultra-hd-blu-ray-copy-protection-details-75833/

 

[qz3fwd]

So does that diagram imply physical discs are bound to specific hardware playback devices?
That would be a big mistake. Many folks have several BD/DVD players-living room, master bedroom, kids bedrooms, basement, and tying a disc to a specific piece of "authorized" playback device would be a major limitation and mistake on the content owners part I think. Now if they allow say up to 12 playback devices then it might be accepted, but then what about resale value of discs?

 

[SilverBlade]

THIS is why Divx failed as a consumer product.

Does the MPAA *never* learn from it's mistakes?

It's like they want to kill physical media.

 

[staknhalo]

It's like they want to kill physical media.

Ummmm....... they do.

 

[Aleron Ives]

You can't force people to pay over and over for the same content on streaming services if they're still buying discs. If they make discs so annoying to use that people don't want them anymore, then they'll finally fulfill their dream of killing physical media.

 

[stanger89]

Creating a new disk format is a very poor way to kill discs. A much easier, cheaper way would be to just not do it.

 

[ajhieb]

Killing physical media before you transition everyone over to streaming is a very poor way to maintain your profit margins. Just because they're still making new disc formats doesn't mean they want to. They're greedy, not stupid.

 

[almostinsane]

What company is going to develop 4K Blu-ray software for the PC? Do any companies even make BD playback software for the PC anymore? This is a business that has really high dev costs with little in return. Wouldn't be surprised if 4K BD's just don't work on PC's at all.

 

[stanger89]

Killing physical media before you transition everyone over to streaming is a very poor way to maintain your profit margins. Just because they're still making new disc formats doesn't mean they want to. They're greedy, not stupid.

The point is, if you're , and your goal is to kill off physical media, the way you go about doing it isn't creating a new, better quality format on physical media, and then advertise the heck out of it and how it's better than streaming (look at the talk from the BDA about it). If your goal was to kill off physical media, you'd just make your content only available streaming/downloading. You'd probably keep selling it on BD and DVD, but you'd make your best quality version (4K/UHD) only available via download.

No doubt there are people/groups who want to kill off physical media, but I don't think they're in the majority yet, or BDA wouldn't be creating a whole new physical format.

What company is going to develop 4K Blu-ray software for the PC? Do any companies even make BD playback software for the PC anymore? This is a business that has really high dev costs with little in return. Wouldn't be surprised if 4K BD's just don't work on PC's at all.

Cyberlink (PowerDVD) and Corel (WinDVD) still make software, who knows if they'll make UHD Blu-ray software, and if they do, how are you going to take advantage of 10 bit color, P3 or 2020 gamut, or PQ/SMPTE 2084/HDR on a PC?

 

[qz3fwd]

What company is going to develop 4K Blu-ray software for the PC? Do any companies even make BD playback software for the PC anymore? This is a business that has really high dev costs with little in return. Wouldn't be surprised if 4K BD's just don't work on PC's at all.

Well cyberlink just released PowerDVD 15, and corel still has WinDVD 11. Arcsoft is out, but then you have the XBMC forked variants from DVDFab & Laweo BD players.......
There are likely others I am missing but I mean players which support BD interactivity either fully or partially.
Presumably it would just be incremental development costs to add BD 4K capabbility to PDVD. Update the DRM module, update the codecs to support HEVC, and not sure about the interactivity side of the spec though.
I am willing to be the cost of a software player license that Cyberlink will support BD 4K and be the first out with PDVD 15.5 or maybe they will just call it PDVD 16.

Oh yeah-I forgot about Nero-they also have a BD software player......

 

[ajhieb]

The point is, if you're , and your goal is to kill off physical media, the way you go about doing it isn't creating a new, better quality format on physical media, and then advertise the heck out of it and how it's better than streaming (look at the talk from the BDA about it). If your goal was to kill off physical media, you'd just make your content only available streaming/downloading. You'd probably keep selling it on BD and DVD, but you'd make your best quality version (4K/UHD) only available via download.

No doubt there are people/groups who want to kill off physical media, but I don't think they're in the majority yet, or BDA wouldn't be creating a whole new physical format.

You seem to be under the impression that we're talking about 1 group, yet you've introduced a 2nd group into the discussion. Studios want to kill physical media. Electronics Manufacturers want to continue building players. Know who makes up the majority of the BDA? Electronics Manufacturers. Yes a few studios signed on... a decade ago when streaming wasn't a viable alternative. And as stated above, the studios have to throw at least a token amount of support behind physical media until the market accepts streaming. If they kill of physical media before it's an acceptable alternative for most people, they're just hurting their own bottom line which is the whole reason they want to move to streaming in the first place.

Their goal isn't to kill off the media, though. That is a means to an end. Their goal is to make more money. Period. And when people haven't embraced streaming yet, a new, better quality format on physical media is undoubtedly the better alternative, but they undoubtedly will do it when the market is right for it.

 

[SilverBlade]

You seem to be under the impression that we're talking about 1 group, yet you've introduced a 2nd group into the discussion. Studios want to kill physical media. Electronics Manufacturers want to continue building players. Know who makes up the majority of the BDA? Electronics Manufacturers. Yes a few studios signed on... a decade ago when streaming wasn't a viable alternative. And as stated above, the studios have to throw at least a token amount of support behind physical media until the market accepts streaming. If they kill of physical media before it's an acceptable alternative for most people, they're just hurting their own bottom line which is the whole reason they want to move to streaming in the first place.

Their goal isn't to kill off the media, though. That is a means to an end. Their goal is to make more money. Period. And when people haven't embraced streaming yet, a new, better quality format on physical media is undoubtedly the better alternative, but they undoubtedly will do it when the market is right for it.

What's holding back streaming is the ****ty infrastructure in the U.S.

It's only within the past year that the major ISP's have 'magically' decided to give people real broadband speeds due to competition from Google, and that the major ISP's can no longer stop municipals from building out their own gigabit networks.

Until the U.S gets -at minimu- 20mpbs out to the rural areas, physical media will still have it's place.

 

[stanger89]

You seem to be under the impression that we're talking about 1 group, yet you've introduced a 2nd group into the discussion. Studios want to kill physical media. Electronics Manufacturers want to continue building players. Know who makes up the majority of the BDA? Electronics Manufacturers. Yes a few studios signed on... a decade ago when streaming wasn't a viable alternative.

It's not just "a few", and they didn't just "sign on". All the major studios are on the BDA Board of Directors:
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/en/AboutBlu-ray/SupportingCompanies.aspx

• Sony Corporation
• Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment
• The Walt Disney Studios
• Universal Studios Home Entertainment
• Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc.

Those five companies control the bulk of content created every year.

And as stated above, the studios have to throw at least a token amount of support behind physical media until the market accepts streaming. If they kill of physical media before it's an acceptable alternative for most people, they're just hurting their own bottom line which is the whole reason they want to move to streaming in the first place.

My point is creating, supporting an entirely new physical format isn't "token support", sure their long term goal is probably to eliminate physical media, but Ultra HD Blu-ray does not seem like it's a step on that plan. The studios are the ones pushing the envelope with UHD Blu-ray, not the electronics manufacturers. The manufacturers just wanted 3140x2160 discs so they can sell more TVs and players. It's the studios that have been pushing for Rec.2020 gamut, 10, 12+ bit color, SMPTE 2084/HDR/Dolby Vision. I don't call that token support.

What's holding back streaming is the ****ty infrastructure in the U.S.

It's only within the past year that the major ISP's have 'magically' decided to give people real broadband speeds due to competition from Google, and that the major ISP's can no longer stop municipals from building out their own gigabit networks.

Until the U.S gets -at minimu- 20mpbs out to the rural areas, physical media will still have it's place.

It's not all just sucky ISPs, the US is a massive country with lots of sparsely populated areas. We are far, far less population dense than the countries with the fastest internet.

We're 26th in the word by intenet speed:
http://www.netindex.com/download/allcountries/

But 179th by population density:
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_population_density

 

[ajhieb]

What's holding back streaming is the ****ty infrastructure in the U.S.

It's only within the past year that the major ISP's have 'magically' decided to give people real broadband speeds due to competition from Google, and that the major ISP's can no longer stop municipals from building out their own gigabit networks.

Until the U.S gets -at minimu- 20mpbs out to the rural areas, physical media will still have it's place.

Phyiscal media will serve a legitimate purpose to people in rural areas without high speed internet, but that doesn't mean the studios care significantly about that group. People in rural areas without access to high speed internet aren't that big of a group, and out of that group I doubt a large portion of that subset is interested in streaming 4k video anyway. It's a small percentage of a small percentage. You're looking at it from a "what makes sense for the end user" perspective, and the studios are looking at it from a "what makes us more money" perspective. If they can fleece 90% of the population for 2 or 3 times what they're paying now, then it doesn't matter if the other 10% get ignored completely

It's not just "a few", and they didn't just "sign on". All the major studios are on the BDA Board of Directors:
http://www.blu-raydisc.com/en/AboutBlu-ray/SupportingCompanies.aspx

• Sony Corporation
• Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment
• The Walt Disney Studios
• Universal Studios Home Entertainment
• Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc.

Those five companies control the bulk of content created every year.

Yes, it is just a few. They are a minority on the Board of Directors, and and a tiny fraction of the overall association membership. You try and paint it as if the studios are in charge of the BDA when that simply isn't the case.

My point is creating, supporting an entirely new physical format isn't "token support", sure their long term goal is probably to eliminate physical media, but Ultra HD Blu-ray does not seem like it's a step on that plan.

I disagree. The studios belong to an organisation (that they basically had to join a decade ago if they wanted to distribute their content at all) but membership in that organisation doesn't constitute anything other than that... membership. They certainly want a seat at the table so they can have a say in things like DRM to make sure their interests are considered, but that doesn't mean the studios are the ones pushing for Ultra HD Blu-ray standards. What actual support can you point to from the studios other than membership in an organisation they had to join a decade ago?

The studios are the ones pushing the envelope with UHD Blu-ray, not the electronics manufacturers. The manufacturers just wanted 3140x2160 discs so they can sell more TVs and players. It's the studios that have been pushing for Rec.2020 gamut, 10, 12+ bit color, SMPTE 2084/HDR/Dolby Vision. I don't call that token support.

Pushing for enhanced specs isn't the same thing as being behind the phyisical media. The studios want increased specs for the delivery mechanism regardless of it being physical or streaming.

Like I said, right now since their consumers haven't gotten behind streaming yet, they have no choice but to continue with physical media, and the hardware manufacturers are going to create the new standard with or without the studios so they don't really have much choice in the matter. In that regard they are along for the ride, not driving the bus.

 

[Aleron Ives]

What I want to know is if the new DRM will get backported to existing BD players and media or if regular BD will even continue to exist after UHD BD comes out. Considering BD itself never overtook DVD in popularity, UHD BD is going to have even less appeal, so I wouldn't expect either DVD or BD support to get dropped in the near future. If that's the case, then they can encumber UHD BD with as many stupid protections as they want, and it won't really matter when you can just get the same movies on BD. Unless you have an exceptionally fancy home theatre setup, Joe Sixpack won't be able to see a difference, anyway.

I suppose the most amusing point in their flagellations over DRM is that as long as Netflix and other streaming services offer UHD content, they can put all the restrictions onto UHD BDs as they want and pirates will still be able to just screen capture UHD movies from Netflix for their releases (until UHD BD protections get cracked).

 

[stanger89]

Yes, it is just a few. They are a minority on the Board of Directors, and and a tiny fraction of the overall association membership. You try and paint it as if the studios are in charge of the BDA when that simply isn't the case.

I never said they were a majority, or in charge, but they're not an insignificant part. If you've been following the goings-on with Ultra HD Blu-ray, you'd know that a significant portion of the "delay" thus far has been disagreement between the hardware manufacturers and the studios on just what the specs for UHD BD would be. As I said, the hardware manufacturers just wanted, and would have been satisfied with a rehash of Blu-ray with only a bump in resolution. It's the studios that have pushed, high bit depths, wide gamuts, HDR, HFR support into the spec. If they were just along for the ride, that wouldn't have happened. Remember it was Fox that got us BD+ on Blu-ray. And Warner Brothers basically decided the HD DVD/Blu-ray format war. I don't know exactly how the politics of the BDA board go, but it's clear for those following Ultra HD Blu-ray that the studios hold quite a bit of sway in what becomes of it.

And as for them being a small number of the studios, the five on the board of the BDA accounted for over 70% of the movie market:
Sony - 12.2%
Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment - 17.3%
The Walt Disney Studios - 15.6%
Universal Studios Home Entertainment - 10.3%
Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc. - 15.1%

Add in Paramount ("General" member) @ 10.2%, and Lionsgate ("Contributor") @ 7.1%, that's the studios accounting for almost 90% of the market having a say in the BDA.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/studio/?view=company&view2=yearly&yr=2014&p=.htm

I disagree. The studios belong to an organisation (that they basically had to join a decade ago if they wanted to distribute their content at all) but membership in that organisation doesn't constitute anything other than that... membership. They certainly want a seat at the table so they can have a say in things like DRM to make sure their interests are considered, but that doesn't mean the studios are the ones pushing for Ultra HD Blu-ray standards. What actual support can you point to from the studios other than membership in an organisation they had to join a decade ago?

Without their "enthusiasm" we wouldn't be seeing Rec.2020 gamut, HDR, HFR, or high bit depths on UHD Blu-ray.

Like I said, right now since their consumers haven't gotten behind streaming yet, they have no choice but to continue with physical media, and the hardware manufacturers are going to create the new standard with or without the studios so they don't really have much choice in the matter. In that regard they are along for the ride, not driving the bus.

It's a two way street, if the studios don't create content for Ultra HD Blu-ray the format goes nowhere. Without the studio's support, there would be no Ultra HD Blu-ray. Sure the hardware manufacturers could make something, but as they say, content is king, and you've got to have the content owners, content creators on board. Warner decided the last format war by switching their support behind Blu-ray. The whole point of Ultra HD Blu-ray is to watch movies. If you don't have the studios/movies, you're not going to sell much hardware to watch demo footage over and over again. The hardware manufacturers need the studios more than the reverse, Sony's already shown it can distribute movies on it's own.

 

[ajhieb]

I never said they were a majority, or in charge, but they're not an insignificant part. If you've been following the goings-on with Ultra HD Blu-ray, you'd know that a significant portion of the "delay" thus far has been disagreement between the hardware manufacturers and the studios on just what the specs for UHD BD would be. As I said, the hardware manufacturers just wanted, and would have been satisfied with a rehash of Blu-ray with only a bump in resolution. It's the studios that have pushed, high bit depths, wide gamuts, HDR, HFR support into the spec. If they were just along for the ride, that wouldn't have happened. Remember it was Fox that got us BD+ on Blu-ray. And Warner Brothers basically decided the HD DVD/Blu-ray format war. I don't know exactly how the politics of the BDA board go, but it's clear for those following Ultra HD Blu-ray that the studios hold quite a bit of sway in what becomes of it.

Again, you're blurring the line between content and delivery. The studios want to improve the content. So yes they have a vested interest in making sure whatever format they use is capable of delivering the content they way they want it delivered. That isn't some inherent endorsement as you keep trying to spin it. I don't like paying $3.00 for gas but if I want my car to work I pay the $3.00/gal anyway. If you used your same logic, you'd say that my driving a car is an endorsement of Shell Oil selling gas for $3.00/gal when that couldn't be further from the truth. Participation doesn't necessarily imply endorsement.

The studios are looking out for their own interests. Period. Of course they're going to exert as much power as they can, wherever they can to protect their interests, but that doesn't always mean that they are the ones in charge. They have some control, but they are not pushing for a UHD physical media distribution model. They are accepting it because it is the best available solution.

And as for them being a small number of the studios, the five on the board of the BDA accounted for over 70% of the movie market:
Sony - 12.2%
Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment - 17.3%
The Walt Disney Studios - 15.6%
Universal Studios Home Entertainment - 10.3%
Warner Bros. Entertainment Inc. - 15.1%

Add in Paramount ("General" member) @ 10.2%, and Lionsgate ("Contributor") @ 7.1%, that's the studios accounting for almost 90% of the market having a say in the BDA.
http://www.boxofficemojo.com/studio/?view=company&view2=yearly&yr=2014&p=.htm

I'm not sure why you continue to belabor that point, as it misses my point entirely. It doesn't matter if 100% of the studios are on board. The number of studios is still relatively small within the BDA compared to the hardware makers. The point was they aren't running the show, no matter how much market share they have in media.

Without their "enthusiasm" we wouldn't be seeing Rec.2020 gamut, HDR, HFR, or high bit depths on UHD Blu-ray.

La dee frickin da. That has nothing to do with physical media. They'd be pushing for that if their content was delivered via disk, stream, carrier pigeon, smoke signals, or telepathy. It's nice the studios are trying to improve content, but it has absolutely no bearing on the discussion of delivery methods.

It's a two way street, if the studios don't create content for Ultra HD Blu-ray the format goes nowhere. Without the studio's support, there would be no Ultra HD Blu-ray. Sure the hardware manufacturers could make something, but as they say, content is king, and you've got to have the content owners, content creators on board. Warner decided the last format war by switching their support behind Blu-ray. The whole point of Ultra HD Blu-ray is to watch movies. If you don't have the studios/movies, you're not going to sell much hardware to watch demo footage over and over again. The hardware manufacturers need the studios more than the reverse, Sony's already shown it can distribute movies on it's own.

Yeah... a studio is pushing a streaming device for UHD content delivery. Thanks for helping prove my (and others') point.

 

[Aleron Ives]

Great, now I'm forever going to feel that my Blu-rays don't give me the ultimate viewing experience, because I've missed out on the potential of 10-bit UHD carrier pigeons.

 

[DavidinCT]

This was going to happen no matter what, Every disc format seems to be hacked with a certain time frame, It took a while for Blu-ray compared to DVD but, UHD or not, it will happen. When will the studios understand ?


Anyway, We all should of known some new DRM package was going to come to support 4K blu-ray. I just hope they released minimum specs soon, I hope not to have to trash a 6 month old HTPC to just play the new format on it via HDMI.


PlayReady 3.0 brings up a question, Windows Media Center runs off PlayReady for playing back premium channels and recorded content. I know WMC is gone from MS as in upgrades, I do hope PlayReady 3.0 works with Windows Media Center (and maybe a minor update to support the new format with PlayReady in WMC would be great)...


I hope this is not the nail in the coffin for WMC when PlayReady 3.0 hits...