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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
So I experimented and learned from using very high linear displacement but undermotored and cheap drivers, the IB3s. I bumped up to 1803s for the van but the IB3s are perfect for the HT. Someday I'll have a new big build log and so I set out to go the opposite direction... the biggest motored driver. Then there is the question of the optimal enclosure to load it in. Of course that depends on whether it's got to do 5Hz HT in a medium room or music to 40Hz outside or in a huge room or 25Hz in a vehicle. Tapped horn milk all that motor for what it is worth? Or 8th order bandpass? How wide does the bandwidth need to be and how flat? Efficiency? Non-issue. Size? say 4' wide 3' tall 4' deep.


So I made the post last nite on ROE because I didn't think the HT crowd would much care for that type of post, then after getting the top 5 largest motored drivers from those guys, starting a tapped horn thread here listing the parameters.... but only 1 of the several subs listed gave parameters. And no one here chimed in on it anyway.


So, what are the 5 largest motors?
 

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For standard magnet motors, diameter is king. The same for neo to a point but it doesn't have to be the same diameter to get the same force. For example, my standard TC Sounds 3HP motor is 7" in diameter. The neodymium motor uses a single 5" slug and has slightly more motor force when connected to the same top assembly.


But comparing diameters is not all the same. You also need to look at the steel used in construction. The gap size between the top plate and the pole piece. Finally, the voice coil used. All determine the amount of energy that can be transferred to the cone.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rlj5242 /forum/post/20810018


For standard magnet motors, diameter is king. The same for neo to a point but it doesn't have to be the same diameter to get the same force. For example, my standard TC Sounds 3HP motor is 7" in diameter. The neodymium motor uses a single 5" slug and has slightly more motor force when connected to the same top assembly.


But comparing diameters is not all the same. You also need to look at the steel used in construction. The gap size between the top plate and the pole piece. Finally, the voice coil used. All determine the amount of energy that can be transferred to the cone.

Great info rlj5242! As a side question, my 1803s were frequently compared to the 3HP and RE HC motors, but I assume simply looking at the motor size (number of slugs, slug thickness, slug diameter, top and bottom plate thickness and diameter) doesnt tell a whole lot, just part?



I have 3 7.5" slugs, top plate is 1.25" thick, bottom is 1/4" thick... looks beefy, but it was used for infinite baffle. I emailed Scott and he said it is nothing like 3HP or RE HC, and in addition has no cooling or anything to it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Oh my fault I forgot KW threads are worthless without pics!




Ladies ( none?) and gentle men (those here neither?) I present to you the strongest non-neo subwoofer motor in current production! bl^2/re of 404



























 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by noah katz /forum/post/20811079


What about thickness?

From what I have heard for a while now is diameter makes a much larger difference than thickness, but thickness adds as well. It goes way back to the Brahma, Dan Wiggins was saying the 2nd and 3rd slug was for cosmetics only. It added $ cuz of the material, and it added shipping weight, but the fact of the matter was...people wouldn't buy them as much looking as they did with only a single slug.


So when the Avalanche came out, at first I thought it looked silly and couldn't possibly keep up with Brahma's and Tumults. But according to Brian Owens who swapped out 4 Tumults for 4 Avalanches, he said they Avalanches outperformed under so many watts when watt for watt. I think the implication was with a lot of power on both, then the Tumult as still better.


The Fi BTL has 11.25" slugs, that was what was initially going to be used on the SMD subs... dual 11.25" slugs but 4" coils using Supergauss. However it only yielded 15% more Bl than using the smaller slugs it uses now (same as Qs I think?) so it was more effective for weight and material to use smaller slugs for SG.


More surface area contact with plates.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/20811090


solox?

Was hopin it wouldnt get out quite that fast





















3.5" coil, less Mms than 4"ers but more thermal than 3"
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
jacked these from profundus-sanus









 

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It's been since university that I've look at my EE text book, but magnetism gets exponentially stronger with distance, inversely. So keeping the coil close is important.


I suppose the comment about diameter must be referring to the size of magnet had more strength when it has a large diameter, rather than the motor in general.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
tight gap is correct, I suppose magnet diameter should be similar to plate diameter, so basically overall motor diameter, having nothing to do with coil diameter.


What is the bl^2/re of the B&C21? ULTRA 5400?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
just posted by prof:

Quote:
Originally Posted by profundus-sanus /forum/post/869900



for reference i just measured the width of the slugs and their 10.75''
 

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As RJ mentioned you need to be looking at the gap size and the amount of mass or layers in the coil as well. Its more than just which has the biggest diameter or more ferrite.


Tc 5200 is >400.


Lms motor tech sacs motor force to implement the flat topped linear BL curve. So does split coil or basically any other linear motor. Really long throw requires a somewhat looser gap overall as well. That is why the linear motor system drivers with big xmax have large motors but the BL usually doesn't end up as high as you would think from looking at the parts.
 

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But why do we need a massively strong motor?


Side note: You posted on ROE? Maybe it's what I do, but the first thing that comes to mind is Rules Of Engagement.


Oh wait, it just came to me. Realm of Excursion...
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 /forum/post/20811416


"What is the bl^2/re of the B&C21? ULTRA 5400?"


311 and 184.


solox has pretty high inductance.

I used to think the ULTRA was a very very strong motor, in fact I expected it to be the strongest next to the DDZ and Warden.



Finny you mention inductance... I was thinking all day today "how hard would it be to get a ring in there? Would it matter much anyway?"


Quote:
Originally Posted by Ricci /forum/post/20811513


As RJ mentioned you need to be looking at the gap size and the amount of mass or layers in the coil as well. Its more than just which has the biggest diameter or more ferrite.


Tc 5200 is >400.


Lms motor tech sacs motor force to implement the flat topped linear BL curve. So does split coil or basically any other linear motor. Really long throw requires a somewhat looser gap overall as well. That is why the linear motor system drivers with big xmax have large motors but the BL usually doesn't end up as high as you would think from looking at the parts.

A buddy of mine had a 5200 rebuilt, thats the 4HP right?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott Simonian /forum/post/20811557


Ah. Thank you, Ricci. I was just about to post the TC5200 but I couldn't figure out the bl^2/re number... cuz im dumb.



I remember that video from way back of one of those with a super thin cone getting torn apart like it was foil. It probably was foil. Heh.

Perfect_prefect just blew his a little bit ago so he's taking pics of it later. He had it rebuilt by Scott, some dude thats well known for doing recones. It had the extra soft rubber/foam dimple surround that the DC and Pioneer subs have, a single soft spider...think it was a 9", and a heavy dustcap and cone for low Fs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber /forum/post/20811627


But why do we need a massively strong motor?


Side note: You posted on ROE? Maybe it's what I do, but the first thing that comes to mind is Rules Of Engagement.


Oh wait, it just came to me. Realm of Excursion...

lol. well 2 reasons, I got to play with the cheap light motored IB3s and milk them for all theyre worth in several alignments... I'd like to sell all my subs off someday and get a couple of the strongest subs and maybe do tapped horns with them. All this horn stuff here, it seems that the bigger/stronger the motor the better it should do. So how come the 5 strongest non-neo nor 5 strongest neo subs havent been used yet? (10 strongest)



I take back my comment about the soloX and having it rebuilt to a round 12".. I want to try it with the normal soloX 18 but fear the pressures would destroy the cone? I'd want maximum output from 25Hz-80Hz from it, so loading would be most extreme that way?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Looneybomber /forum/post/20811627


But why do we need a massively strong motor?


Side note: You posted on ROE? Maybe it's what I do, but the first thing that comes to mind is Rules Of Engagement.


Oh wait, it just came to me. Realm of Excursion...

Every time is see Realmofexcursion, the dyslexia of me just sees 'real MOFO excursion'.



Easily just as applicable.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kryptonitewhite /forum/post/20811651


lol. well 2 reasons, I got to play with the cheap light motored IB3s and milk them for all theyre worth in several alignments... I'd like to sell all my subs off someday and get a couple of the strongest subs and maybe do tapped horns with them. All this horn stuff here, it seems that the bigger/stronger the motor the better it should do. So how come the 5 strongest non-neo nor 5 strongest neo subs havent been used yet? (10 strongest)



I take back my comment about the soloX and having it rebuilt to a round 12".. I want to try it with the normal soloX 18 but fear the pressures would destroy the cone? I'd want maximum output from 25Hz-80Hz from it, so loading would be most extreme that way?

Well, that's why the IB type motors aren't fantastic for vented cabs. They don't have that massive power to really drive the ports effectively. I mean, as effectively as the uber motor drivers. The uber power motors are super peaky and aren't really intended for SQ at all. Just cramming the biggest woofer with the biggest motor into as small a box as possible and tune that sucker high (or where ever its optimal for SPL) and churn out them dB's. That's why you only see these kinds of drivers used in dB drags and not for systems you want to listen to daily.
 
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