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Quote:
Originally Posted by volsey
the biological human body is a bigger variable than most people would regularly consider.
This is absolutely true, and a good reason why multiple long term listening sessions in the comfort of your own home, with your own gear, is the most revealing way to test new stuff in your system.


Put it in and listen for a while. If you don't like it, take it out. Measurements and blind testing are helpful, but not the final arbiter. Listening satisfaction is.
 

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Quote:
This is absolutely true, and a good reason why multiple long term listening sessions in the comfort of your own home, with your own gear, is the most revealing way to test new stuff in your system.

Now you're getting colder.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by volsey /forum/post/19635885


Thanks for the amazing insight? I usually throw out a CD after I listen to it because who ever listens to the same song more than once right?...

Really didn't think I'd need to mention the same source content has sounded different on the same set-up on different days. I was really just trying (and apparently failed) to tie in with what Gizmologist was saying, the biological human body is a bigger variable than most people would regularly consider.

Sure if you believe in The Hulk or a number of other Super Heros that can transform their bodies.


OASN, I bet their hearing is probably pretty good as well.
 

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Quote:
Sound like he is pretty much on the money.

You two should write a novel together. You have similar tastes in fiction.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnarus /forum/post/19637993


You two should write a novel together. You have similar tastes in fiction.

Hey mcnarus, couldn't agree more with you. Frankly, I'll never understand where some of these crazy ideas come from. I learned a long time ago to ask a simple question. Would I rather be right or would I rather be sane? No amount of common sense will ever get through to those who can't recognize it. At times I just sit back I sit back and laugh.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gizmologist /forum/post/19636343


"Save some money, if you are handy with tools...

Go to a commercial electrical wholesale company and buy some really good quality rubber-covered power cord, and some high-quality plugs and receptacles.

I'm partial to the Hubbell "Valise" series (yellow, clam-shell design). Do a good job of stripping the wires and screwing-down the brass screws in the plugs and connectors, without nicking the wire strands or splaying the strands all over the place. Tinning (solder) just the very tip of the wire strands, leaving the rest of the connection to "crush down" under the screw terminals, will help prevent loose strands.


If you are capable of it (depending on skill and local electrical codes), replace the wall outlet, and even the circuit breaker, with a high-quality equivalent...from the same wholesaler...and make the connections clean and tight."


Up to this point^. you were right on the money.


Then you lost track of reality with this:


"Getting away from the cheaper wiring devices between the breaker panel and the equipment is a good start for better sound."


THERE IS NO EFFECT on the ability of any device to reproduce the audio spectrum from recorded media by a power cable, speaker cable or interconnect if the cables meet the design criteria of the system, i.e. current flow and resistance in the realm of power and speaker cables.


If the interconnects are well shielded and are designed to minimize channel cross talk and EMI, all is well.

I was talking about such things as low-quality connections in cheap receptacles (which cause electrical noise as they fail), and breakers that may go bad and pop at inopportune times, or create noise on the line. Clean, tight connections, with brass screws instead of "pot metal"...that sort of thing. After that, being conscientious about routing of cables (power and otherwise), keeping the cable lengths reasonable, and careful grounding are good tips. At home, I use one good outlet for everything, fanning out from it with a six-way and a couple of Furman Distribution Panels (PL-8 Plus and PL-8), so everything comes from the same ground potential. Plugging in to the same circuit, but on an outlet on the adjacent wall, increases my noise and hum slightly. I only draw about 5-10 amps total, so I'm OK with the fan-out, and nothing else is on that breaker. If I owned the place, I'd install two wide-boxes, for a total of about four duplex receptacles (and, spend about five bucks on each...twelve if they were iso-grounds and "hospital grade".) I can't see how a $200 receptacle or cord makes any difference, though, so I agree with you there.

(Have you ever seen what happens when a cheap outlet loses it's tension? We nearly had a fire at work, when the plug came slightly loose on an edit bay. Big mess!
)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnridgerunner /forum/post/19639523


Hey mcnarus, couldn't agree more with you. Frankly, I'll never understand where some of these crazy ideas come from. I learned a long time ago to ask a simple question. Would I rather be right or would I rather be sane? No amount of common sense will ever get through to those who can't recognize it. At times I just sit back I sit back and laugh.

So you enjoy the drama and feel the need to perpetuate it with this post? Everybody needs a hobby.


Mine is audio, and I enjoy discussing it with fellow enthusiasts. Why does it have to be more difficult than that. Need this be taken to a personal level, guys?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tesseract67 /forum/post/19641217


So you enjoy the drama and feel the need to perpetuate it with this post? Everybody needs a hobby.


Mine is audio, and I enjoy discussing it with fellow enthusiasts. Why does it have to be more difficult than that. Need this be taken to a personal level, guys?

I do apologize if you took this personally. Did not mean to make it sound personal. You must realize however that Everyone has an opinion. Mine is that this is silliness, yours is that it is not. If you read my post that was you would recognize that fact. I have been trying to make light of this point since this debate has raged on for years with no quarter given. It is a stupid, inane argument at this point. Trying to find Drama he, he, only someone with no sense of humor could find drama in this argument. There are no winners or losers in this so called debate. People will continue to choose one side or the other over this silliness because that is what it is. It most certainly is not drama. By the way, I too love this hobby and enjoy my music and equipment as well. We share an interest in a great hobby. That'll be the day I take something "personal" concerning a difference of opinion. Are you open minded enough to agree to disagree?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnridgerunner /forum/post/19641305


I do apologize if you took this personally. Did not mean to make it sound personal. You must realize however that Everyone has an opinion. Mine is that this is silliness, yours is that it is not. If you read my post that was you would recognize that fact. I have been trying to make light of this point since this debate has raged on for years with no quarter given. It is a stupid, inane argument at this point. Trying to find Drama he, he, only someone with no sense of humor could find drama in this argument. There are no winners or losers in this so called debate. People will continue to choose one side or the other over this silliness because that is what it is. It most certainly is not drama. By the way, I too love this hobby and enjoy my music and equipment as well. We share an interest in a great hobby. That'll be the day I take something "personal" concerning a difference of opinion. Are you open minded enough to agree to disagree?

I have no problem agreeing to disagree, nor do I take this personally, I did say "guys".
People do tend to get a little heated and the fur flies. I know there are people in the AVS forum that would like to share their experiences in the 2 Channel Audio sub forum, but do not, because it is such a hassle. That is unfortunate.


Actually, "upscale" power cords is not something I have an opinion on as I have not yet tried any. If and when I do, it will probably be at the end of any upgrade path, like I will ever be done upgrading.
I would like to try them though, and hear for myself.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Secret Squirrel /forum/post/19621054


That statement is really not true. We are into experimenting. Many experiments are a waste of time and $$$. The OP did not ask for a better sounding power cord. He asked for a good value power cord. It was just a guess that anyone looking to spend more than $20 for a power cord is seeking to gain something in sound quality by replacing the perfectly good factory power cord that came with the amp. Or replacing a misplaced stock cord with an expensive replacement. Read this article. Make sure you read the entire article.
http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2004.html


If these expensive power cords do make a difference. What about all the other inadequate wiring in the rest of your house? Never mind the other 50 miles of power cabling between your home and the power company that you have not touched? It's going to get really expensive ripping your entire house apart to replace every wire with magic wire. Never mind installing that 50 miles of magic wire between you and the power company. Oh, don't forget to do something about all those transformers and sub stations in the chain. You need to get rid of those to. Im glad it's winter and I have my boots on. The s--t's getting deep.

great link! thanks for the info. i was always curios about those super expensive power cords, but not anymore
that blind test was well set up, and the result is unbiased. I now believe this powercord thing is just another HDMI-scam-thingy.
 

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An interesting link for sure for both sides of the fence.

Length of switch times in conjunction with the listeners inability to hear the A/B sound clip at repeat intervals may have hindered the listeners ability to accurately discern any differences. Also the fact there was a small # of participants in the group and a very small # sitting in the sweet spot really was not ideal. As many of you have accurately said in the past, that even position/head angle change in the sweet spot can cause differences in perceived sound. So what would not even sitting in the sweet spot do? The BAAS member in the second group scored 7 out of 10, which seems statistically relevant to me... wonder where he was sitting?
 

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So one person gets 7 out of 10. That is no more statistically relevant that if they'd all been flipping coins and he got 7 heads out of 10 trials. You have to look at the group results.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chu Gai /forum/post/19645584


So one person gets 7 out of 10. That is no more statistically relevant that if they'd all been flipping coins and he got 7 heads out of 10 trials. You have to look at the group results.

I think it depends what you are trying to prove. If you want to know if the general population can tell the difference, you need to look at the group. But if you are only trying to tell if any person can tell the difference, it only takes one. Either way, 7 out of 10 is not significant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #76 ·
Folks-


Thank you all for your responses to my original post.

Yes, I was looking for an improvement in SQ over the power cord that came with my Cambridge Audio 650A amp.


This link/article was superbly helpful: http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...s-12-2004.html


My summary is that a bunch of guys who cared enough about audio to sit and listen to a blind AC power cord test did not detect a statistical difference in SQ between power cords . (I could not tell if the out-of-box cord was in fact used?)


OK - its possible that Power cord technology has made significant advances in the last 5 years - but my thinking is that it not likely.


My conclusion it that I might try something with a 30 day money back guarentee, but wont commit $50-70 to a science experiment that my ears are unlikely to appreciate.


Again, thank you all for your input and suggestions.
 

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Discussion Starter · #77 ·
Folks-


I was alarmed at how quickly the conversation went negative and wanted to comment on the tone of the discussion in this and other posts.


I do appreciate how at the end of the discussion several folks tried to mend fences - my compliments those folks for taking the trouble to restore civility!


I assume that everyone who takes the trouble to post a response means well.

The more I delve into Mid-Range/High End audio, the more I realize how subjective perceived Sound Quality (SQ) is. And there is clearly a point of diminishing marginal returns to scale for investments in audio gear.


Which is not to say that concepts like staging, brightness, etc don't exist, but they are very hard to quantify. Now, dB loss at difference frequencies is another matter entirely, but specs don't always give the complete picture o SQ.


I like wine, and wine reviews are often the same way - folks can describe attributes, but taste and value are subjective.. For my dollar, I'd rather have 4 very nice $25 bottles of wine than a $100 98 pointer, but that is just my subjective opinion, and it's ok for other folk to disagree when they are spending their own money.


Back to Audio. Let's give folks the courtesy of accepting that if they say something sounds better to them, then it does (to them). I think it is fine and polite to ask if there is supporting data to their assertion, to please provide the data. And it is fine to disagree with opinions politely and respectfully:


"Thanks for providing more info on your comment. But I don't dispute that your conclusion reasonable and valid to you based on your knowledge and experience. However, for myself, I disagree with your conclusion that this is a scientific fact because of X, Y, and Z."

or

"I dont agree with your comment, but acknowledge that taste is subjective when it comes to these things"

Telling someone they are an "idiot" just isn't helpful. (Even if it is true -lol!)


Back to the wine analogy. My wine store has a great guy who understands my palate and budget, and has a 90% hit rate with me on wine recommendations. I don't always buy a case after trying his recommendation, but I almost always think the wine he recommends is "good".


It seems to me that in the audio world, there is a good chance that as individuals we might find "docents" who seem to get our tastes and values, and have a good chance to suggest a "winner". There are a couple of people on this forum who I would put in that category, and I would be happy to respond to a PM with some suggestions.

I hope you will agree with me that we would all benefit from a more civilized tone to the discussions on this forum.


But if you don't agree with me, then, I hope you will disagree - politely of course.
 

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Please don't be alarmed by the vitriol expressed here. There is one camp that understands HOW the components and circuitry actually work and what can/cannot affect the audio or video output of an AC powered device.


The other camp does NOT technically know how the equipment does what it does and is susceptible to sales hype from really persuasive salesmen who themselves don't understand but are working on commission so they push what they are told. A good example is BB.


M*nster Cable and many others have been caught "with there pants down" each time their product claims are actually put under scientific testing.


The same net effect is seen when a drug ad uses the phrase "1000 milligrams" vs the same measurement of "1 gram" Which sounds more impressive to the untrained?


So many audiophiles (being polite here) fall victim to the snake oil salesmen because they do not have the tools or experience to understand HOW to actually test the claims. Anecdotal claims are useless in the SCIENCE portion of this hobby.


We have seen cable claims and arguments go back and forth hundreds of times- this is NOT the first.


We have also seen claims of "sonic nirvana" brought into existence by wooden knobs , POCO ceramic insulators re-purposed to hold welding cable sized speaker cables level, anti vibration blue goop slathered all over printed circuit boards, anti vibration mats under components with no internal movable components and the list goes on.


Those in the practical and common sense camp try repeatedly to show the "believers" that there are so many claims made with zero factual basis and that the other variables such as the intricacies of the human body and its surroundings ARE the most important details in a listening environment.


It is easy to track your aural and visual acuity through the day. In the most simple example, how many people are cranky and not "awake" or able to process information until they have the morning coffee? The majority of coffee drinkers. During that time, they have convinced themselves they cannot function at full potential. The same effect occurs towards the end of a long work day. The mind and body are tired and perceptions vary from the morning of the same day to the evening.


Ambient noise or light/visual impact a person is exposed to during the day will temporarily alter their perceptions. At what point would they best be able to make a listening test of a system or cable?


How about when a person has a head cold or a headache or is just overly tired? Daily and hourly variations in a person's body and senses are all natural and quite common. The circuitry in an electronic component is constant as long as the ambient temp and supply voltages are within it operational range. Where are the variables then? The human body. Even listening with an open mouth vs a closed mouth makes changes in the hearing acuity.


The skull acts as a reflective surface and a diffusive surface and that effect is dampened by the thickness of the skin and musculature. The "sweet spot" indicates by its very nature that only one person can occupy it at a time and

once so located, that person cannot move his/her hear at all or the parameters will change. Blood pressure variations, and all the other biological markers in the human body affect the senses more and measurably so, than a piece of wire.


Ambient temp, humidity and even altitude can and DO affect the human senses and as such MUST be included in the equation.


What we are trying to do is save those who do not have the knowledge or in some cases the desire to learn the technical facts from wasting hundreds to thousands of dollars on useless junk.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by G-Rex /forum/post/19645476


As many of you have accurately said in the past, that even position/head angle change in the sweet spot can cause differences in perceived sound.

Can you quote couple of them? What does that have to do with what's on the link?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesJ /forum/post/19623144


Or, perhaps that is just their claim, unsupported by evidence, no?




Simple fact? How so? Based on what evidence? Why is that evidence so elusive and nonexistent if it is a simple fact?

I hear dead people.
 
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