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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi guys,


I've been a lurker on these forums for a few months and have learned a great deal from you all. Thanks!


I'm just about ready to unleash the fury of my (rather empty) wallet on an HS10. However, I've also been offered an older model 600:1 contrast ratio TW100 (it's brand new with warranty) at EXACTLY the same price.


Which should I go for? Although I've seen both PJs at length, I've not seen them side by side. I would be happy with either of them, in terms of the quality of the pictures they throw.


I'm swaying slightly to the HS10 because of the HDCP compatibility. When you spend that kind of money on something, you want it to have some degree of future proofing.


I'd be grateful for your views!


Thanks!
 

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Yeah, that would be a tough decision, huh?


I would say, the old TW100 and HS10 is roughly comparable with respect to blacks/shadows. The TW100 has a definitive edge in brightness (over the filter-installed HS10), the flexibility of user-mode color adjustments, in not needing a CC filter to get accurate colors, and quieter fan noise. The HS10 is better in several other features, including the HDCP compatibility, the "side-shot", and the motorized zoom. Also, keep in mind that HS10's lens is significantly longer throw.
 

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For the same price, go with the HS10. For these reasons:


- HS10 is a current model. If you had to sell a year from now you'd likely recoup much more from the higher demand and more current HS10


- The HS10 has somewhat better PQ than the original TW100 model at least that was the opinion with a number of shootouts that have had both projectors.


- The Hi-Def image of the Hs10 is simply jaw dropping and I would doubt the TW100 was optimized for hidef the way the Hs10 obviously was.


- DVI/HDCP, 1:1 pixel mapping, great scaling, motorized functions all keep the HS10 more current featurewise longer than the TW100. The HDCP feature alone could keep the HS10 sought after long after the TW100 is obsolete.


- HS10 throws a bigger picture. If you really want to 133" the HS10 can do it without breaking a sweat, the TW100 would be overreaching.


My advice, obviously, go with the HS10 unless you really need the short throw of the TW100.
 

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I'm assuming HTCrazy has not seen the Epson in person. Here are some counterpoints to the post by HTCrazy:

Quote:
For the same price, go with the HS10. For these reasons:


- HS10 is a current model. If you had to sell a year from now you'd likely recoup much more from the higher demand and more current HS10
I don't know about others, but I don't buy things with an eye on resale value. I would buy the higher quality item.


Quote:
- The HS10 has somewhat better PQ than the original TW100 model at least that was the opinion with a number of shootouts that have had both projectors.
Opinion is the key word in the above statement.


Quote:
- The Hi-Def image of the Hs10 is simply jaw dropping and I would doubt the TW100 was optimized for hidef the way the Hs10 obviously was.
Unless you've seen HDTV on the Epson, how can you really say the HS10 is much better? The Epson has Faroudja processing and is a widescreen 1280x720 panel. Seems to me it is optimized for HDTV.


Quote:
- DVI/HDCP, 1:1 pixel mapping, great scaling, motorized functions all keep the HS10 more current featurewise longer than the TW100. The HDCP feature alone could keep the HS10 sought after long after the TW100 is obsolete.
Obviously, the HDCP thing is a big plus in favor of the HS10. But the TW100 does have a DVI input and is capable of 1:1 pixel mapping. And as I mentioned before, it has Faroudja processing on board.


Quote:
- HS10 throws a bigger picture. If you really want to 133" the HS10 can do it without breaking a sweat, the TW100 would be overreaching.
Again, without having actually seen the TW100, how can you say a 133" projected image would be overreaching on the TW100. All of my research indicates the TW100 is brighter than the HS10, even without its filter in place.


Quote:
My advice, obviously, go with the HS10 unless you really need the short throw of the TW100.


The only reason, as I see it, to take the HS10 over the Epson is the DVI/HDCP input. Here are some reasons to consider the Epson over the HS10:


1. Brighter image, despite the lower lumen rating.


2. No need for a filter


3. Quieter fan


4. Faroudja processing. Should be better than Sony's propriatory technology


5. Epson is renowned for their ability to tame the uneven spectral output of short-arc metal-halide lamps. The net result is their lamp will remain brighter than the Sony over a longer period of time.


6. 2 year overnite replacement warranty. Sony is only a one year warranty.


7. Epson (at least in Canada) has a ZERO DEAD PIXEL policy. Sony doesn't.


IF, and that's a big if, HDCP is not important to you, you really should see the Epson for yourself before ruling it out.


Another point to consider is the number of posts about problem HS10's compared to the number of problem TW100's. I don't recall seeing too many negative posts about the TW100.


Here are a couple of links to reviews of the old TW100:

http://www.guidetohometheater.com/printarchives.cgi?92

http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/volum...0-12-2002.html
 

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Why go through all the back and forth... it's simple. If you're going to be using your pj longer than a year, going DVI/HDCP should be a no brainer. IF not, you're really buying obsolete technology. Especially with the new crop of DVI DVD players as well as STB's, etc.... All digital is the way to go. Not saying buy an HS10.. just get a pj with DVI/HDCP.
 

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pocoloco, Yeah but you still want to balance many criteria when buying a projector. The problem is, if you narrow it down to the HDCP-savvy machines in the very first step, you will only have the HS10, HT1000, and the Mits 1208. Nothing else under $5K that I know of. My assessment is, at this time HDCP is not (yet) THAT important to throw away all other criteria in selecting a projector.


I would happily sell my current projector and buy the latest-and-greatest HDCP-compliant machine, WHEN the protocol becomes pervasive and you are practically unable to see any HD sources without it. Currently, I do not even subscribe to an HDTV, simply because there are not much interesting, true HD contents on air. I do not know how long it is going to take, but I feel that taking an action at that stage is not too late at all. For now, I would enjoy the projector I chose as best for me, based on other criteria than not-yet-necessary-at-all HDCP.


As for the DVD connection, you can get only so much resolution and PQ from the DVD as the 480p source resolution dictates; I am completely happy with the lowly component connection, since the real bottleneck is in the media format itself (when you are talking about 720p-class projectors).
 

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Read projector centrals review of the updated TW100.


Then, consider the differences between the new and old TW100, and take that into account.
 

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True you have to balance out criteria. True that HDCP is not fully pervasive yet. But it will be and as long as you're not planning to get a new pj within a year or two, HDCP is something that you should account for.... it'll used in everything like DVD players, STB's, Sat boxes, etc.... Why not save yourself the headache and future complaining.


My logic is there is not a substantial difference between HDCP and nonHDCP machines to make anyone forego HDCP. Pj's like the hs10 vs. the lpx 500, which I've compared in person, is not that much different in performance. If you compare them side by side, yes the differences may be detectable, but in real world stand alone viewing, you won't notice the differences. I doubt by looking at a picture, you can say, it's an hs10 or it's an tw100. On top of that, if you are critical enough to let the differences bother you, then you're probably a tweaker so you can tweak any hdcp pj to get it looking great anyways. Plus having an all digital video path is a visible improvement in itself. Honestly, the hs10 and HT1000 are great pj's, I don't know how much better performance you're expecting to get with a non hdcp machine.


Ultimately, as we always hear, go see the pj's for yourself, and ask yourself is it worth not having HDCP and what that may potentially mean. If yes, then so be it.
 

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The Bravo player does not require HDCP for DVI output. So both the Epson and the Sony will do just fine. Both will do 1:1 mapping at 720P, which to be honest is only important for computer usage as you wouldn't want to do 1:1 mapping with a DVD, it would be major resolution loss. The plus on the DVI DVD players is no D:A:D conversion. When HD DVDs come out then 1:1 pixel mapping will be important. But will HD DVDs be 720p or 1080i??


You'll be happy with either projector. The HS10s biggest weaknesses relative to the Epson are fan noise(it is loud) and warrantee.


I still think the HDCP issue is blown way out of proportion, but that is just my opinion obivously. This is the only weakness of the Epson to the Sony. There is basically no forced HDCP content right now, Dish's boxes don't even have DVI, Direct TVs next boxes will also have Firewire and it will be some time before there are any substantial offerings of HD DVDs, especially if the players aren't backwards compatable. So it will be 2-3 years at least before you would even possibly be in trouble, if then.


The motorized focus an zoom are more gimicks, though nice to have, than features that change the quality of use.


6:1 1/2 Dozen to the Other. I'd be torn too.


Hugh
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by pocoloco
True you have to balance out criteria. True that HDCP is not fully pervasive yet. But it will be and as long as you're not planning to get a new pj within a year or two, HDCP is something that you should account for.... it'll used in everything like DVD players, STB's, Sat boxes, etc.... Why not save yourself the headache and future complaining.
I fully admit to not being an expert at HDCP not entertainment encryption at all... but I am an engineer who deals with standards daily.


I simply can't imagine HDCP will be an issue for at least 4-5 years. From the little I've read, HDCP hasn't even been accepted yet as the defacto standard.


Completely aside from the length of time it takes standards to make it out and become consumer accepted, I have a hard time beliving HDCP will be the end all for the encryption standard. It is incredibly easy to hack (and has been done in 2001) and also doesn't take care of audio (right?).


It boils down to this: It hasn't been accepted as the end all encryption standard and I can't imagine all the industries involved will jump on the bandwagon within 4-5 years.


Mike
 

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Quote:
The motorized focus an zoom are more gimicks, though nice to have
I think this really depends on the AR of your screen. If you go with a 1.85 AR screen, motorized zoom seems like it would be VERY nice when switching between 1.85, 1.78, and 1.33 source material. Of course, if you just go with a 1.78 AR screen, it would not be necessary at all :D.


(No, I'm not an HS10 owner - I'm still researching like so many others out here)
 

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I have no idea to what degree HDCP will REALLY play out in the market so no point in debating about that. I have my guesses but it's as good as anyone else. My main point is why not choose HDCP capable pj's if you have a choice to get an HDCP pj. The differences in PQ between HDCP pj's and non-HDCP pj's is not significant enough to sacrifice the option of HDCP. That's my opinion at least. So my advice is stick with HDCP pj's and then go from there to make your choice.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by vincanity

....

4. Faroudja processing. Should be better than Sony's propriatory technology


5. Epson is renowned for their ability to tame the uneven spectral output of short-arc metal-halide lamps. The net result is their lamp will remain brighter than the Sony over a longer period of time.
Vincanity, you make some valid points but then fall guilty of the same crime you are critisizing:


4. The Sony scaler is not proriatory but made by Pixelworks, and is a superb unit. Faroudja might be the well known brand but it doesn't automatically make them the best.


5. I fail to see a connection between uneven spectal output and lamp life, and any comments are speculation anyway. Nobody here has said that they have a HS10 with 2000+ hours up so thats not a provable comment.



I don't dispute your reasoning or conclusion, I just think that we should all remove the emotions and try to be unbiased.

As for the original question, its a tough call and the difference appears to be very minor. I've seen both myself and would have been very happy with either as far as picture quality.
 

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Quote:
There is basically no forced HDCP content right now, Dish's boxes don't even have DVI, Direct TVs next boxes will also have Firewire and it will be some time before there are any substantial offerings of HD DVDs, especially if the players aren't backwards compatable. So it will be 2-3 years at least before you would even possibly be in trouble, if then.
Samsung will introduce the HD931 this June which will up-convert standard DVD's to 720p and 1080i via the DVI-HDCP. I for one will not want to miss out on this new technology.


Michael
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Thanks for your comments, guys.


Sushi: If the blacks/shadows are similar, then it does move the stakes slightly in favour of the HS10, mainly because I am partial to having HDCP to provide me with some form of assurance against obsolecence. The motorised zoom is a cute feature, and helpful, from a ceiling mounted point of view as well.


You make a point about the upper resolution limit that DVDs can provide us with. My concern with that is Samsung's upcoming 931. Of course we don't know how well it'll work or how good it would look, but, in your opinion, do you think it's worthwhile settling for the HS10 on the basis that it may give you the option of enjoying a better format by the end of this year?


Given the possibly equal PQ of both the Epson and the Sony, perhaps HDCP compatibility is a feature which is worth dismissing other comparitive features for.


I'm just thinking out loud here!


HTCrazy: Yup, another in favour of HDCP... Mind you, my interest in HDCP is based on Samsung's 931 (which MrLabGuy mentions), and not on HDTV, as HD broadcasting is not available where I live :)


vincanity: Thanks for the links. To me, the point you make about the higher light output without the need for a filter is a huge selling point for the TW100.


pocoloco: I think your thinking reflects the way I'm going...I'm wondering whether or not foregoing HDCP will mean that I'll miss out on what (at this point) it could potentially mean.


hpalmer & Plasticmike: I was ready to put HDCP considerations on the backburner until I read about the Samsung 931. What do you guys think, taking that into account?


Incidentally, after playing extensively with both projectors and handling them in ways that make a salesperson nervous, I was of the view that the Epson had the better build quality. Does anyone agree?
 

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Brightangel,

Take into consideration the HS10 has a lamp issue that manifests in a various of ways. You can find further in a thread called "VPL-HS10 lamp issues" info in this forum.

Personally, this is the main reason I ruled out this PJ.

I got a very good deal on this PJ - I have a good friend who works for the Sony import company :). I have seen this PJ and it looks good. The colors where slightly saturated for my taste and shadow detail comes out only with the magenta lens and cinema black option (LOTR).

I talked one of the Sony's technicians and he did confess they get many service calls on account of the lamp issue. Right now they've got a clear directive to replace the lamp, no question asked, and hope for the best.
 

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Hummm, I don't agree about the lamp problem. It concerns only a part the first batch of pj. And only in the US. On our french forum we are dozen with HS10 an no lamp problem. No problem whatsoever I should say: all the HS10 I have heard of are OK.
 

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One thing I don't think people are taking into accounts with their arguments are that we're talking about the older TW100, not the new one as reviewed on PJ. The same model name does cause confusion.


The HS10 vis a vis a new model TW100 would be an entirely different discussion at the same price point.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
JulianVL: I've been following the lamp problem very closely and I'll be lying if I said that it didn't cause me concern. However, based on Sony's position that they have a directive to replace the lamp, I think that I'd be able to sort out any such problem quite quickly. The Sony service centre won't be more than 40 mins drive away :)
 

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I have done the exact comparision, of the TW100 600:1 (older model) against the HS10,

Bought the TW100 in the end and paid $900Australian extra over HS10... well worth it.


The picture quality on the TW100 was better then HS10 ....IN MY OPINION. The fan noise was a lot quieter than HS10, and the Short throw lens on the Epson was a big plus for my setup.
 
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