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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
They've now confused the heck out of me. On last night's Tech Forum they announced the 6000 software upgrade that added caller ID etc., you know, the one from a month ago. Then 5 minutes later they showed a video on aspect ratio which showed the 6000 as having aspect ratio control for 4:3 sets without built in vertical compression. My 6000 doesn't yet have this capability. They seemed to imply that the mighty 6000 had this capability. Did I miss them saying it was on the way, or is this just another case of Dish continuing to mislead us on product capability?



BWilson
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by BWILSON:
Did I miss them saying it was on the way, or is this just another case of Dish continuing to mislead us on product capability?


BWilson
I must say that I get put off by this kind of statement. Let's always assume the worst about a company and let's reward their achievements by blasting them. Good move. If you have so little confidence in Dish, why are you one of their customers?


Now that I've gotten that off my chest, they should have said that the aspect control demonstrated on the Tech Forum will be available with the next software upgrade. It's real and it works. I've seen it. With these aspect control features, you'll have more control over the picture than with any other STB. Dish didn't have to spend the time and money doing this, but they did. You should be thanking them instead of condemning them simply because there was a miscommunication in not stating that these new features aren't available quite yet. I'm quite sure that Dish's intention was not to cause confusion that will lead to unnecessary calls to tech support. That wouldn't be in their best interest, would it?


Be patient. The upgrade that will give you this aspect control is in beta and it won't be in beta forever.


Jerry



[This message has been edited by Jerry G (edited 04-10-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Jerry -


What you've detected is frustration. Overall I am a satisfied Dish customer and have been for three years. This past December I bought a 6000/8VSB and ran into the problem with neither the 6000 or my 4:3 set having aspect ratio control. The result was a great HD picture with tall-skinny people. Both my set manufacturer Toshiba and Dish just pointed their fingers at each other and I was left to solve the problem myself with the "squeeze" trick. Right now I'm happy I've got a great HD picture and honestly I don't think that Dish adding aspect ratio control now will do anything for me. But, when I bought the 6000 I believe I was mislead and IMHO last night's Tech Forum continued to mislead prospective customers, whether intentional or not, by showing product capability withour disclosing that it wasn't available today.


BWILSON
 

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Any word on when the new software will be available for download? I know a few recent buyers of new 6000s have gotten the aspect ratio control features (unsuspecting beta testers?), so they must be close.


Dave
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
The 6000 and the 8VSB module are sold as separate items. Costs are about $499 and $149 respectively. The 8VSB just slides in, all you need is a screwdriver. Try www.dishdepot.com.


BWilson
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by BWILSON:
Jerry -


What you've detected is frustration. Overall I am a satisfied Dish customer and have been for three years. This past December I bought a 6000/8VSB and ran into the problem with neither the 6000 or my 4:3 set having aspect ratio control. The result was a great HD picture with tall-skinny people. Both my set manufacturer Toshiba and Dish just pointed their fingers at each other and I was left to solve the problem myself with the "squeeze" trick. Right now I'm happy I've got a great HD picture and honestly I don't think that Dish adding aspect ratio control now will do anything for me. But, when I bought the 6000 I believe I was mislead and IMHO last night's Tech Forum continued to mislead prospective customers, whether intentional or not, by showing product capability withour disclosing that it wasn't available today.


BWILSON
You and I obviously see things very differently and I'm not really going to try to change your mind. But I will state a few things that are very obvious to me.


You purchased a 4:3 set without vertical squeeze capabilities. That was your choice and you should have realized the limitations and consequences of such a choice. As I recall from previous posts, it was the Toshiba STB that was to supposed to deal with this. Dish had absolutely NO obligation to correct the shortcomings of your set. Personally, I'd never purchase an HD set that requires me to go into the service menu to get an undistorted HD picture. Why you would even expect Dish to deal with this issue is beyond me. But they did and you should be thankful. But you're obviously not.


To me it was clearly an unintentional oversight that the folks on the tech forum didn't mention that the software wasn't available at this time. You insist it was an intentional deception. I think that is absolutely absurd and I'd love to hear what motivation Dish would have for such a deception.


At this point, I think I'll leave this aspect of the discussion and leave it up to you to come to whatever conclusions you want to.


Jerry



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(The original Jerry G, not the new member named Jerry_G)
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by HIPSTIR:
Does the 6000 now come with the OTA Module out of the box? If not, where could I purchase the OTA Module? I am looking into going with the Dish Network (HDTV Newbie), but I can't seem to get a straight answer when I search for information about the 6000 model.
No, the 8VSB module doesn't come with it. It costs about ~$100 to ~$150 extra but is well worth it if you have terrestrial DTV in your area. If you want an E* model 6000, I recommend the model 6023 package that comes with the model 6000 receiver, a dish 500 (for 110 and 119), a dish 300 (for 61.5 sat), and all the switches & hardware needed for installation. Again, the 8VSB terrestrial add-in is extra. If you are a do-it-yourselfer buy it from one of these places:
www.satelliteone.com
www.dishdepot.com
www.dishusa.com


 

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If you are lucky a local Sears will match the best price found and you can arrange for free installation through Dish (for first dish system must add ~$69 for second dish). I seem to remember that Sears online store had 8 VSB for something like $89. Was this true?




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Gary


STOP DVI/HDCP!

DVI/HDCP! ~= HD-DIVX!!!

DO NOT SUPPORT JVC or anyone else who supports this!
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Jerry G:
To me it was clearly an unintentional oversight that the folks on the tech forum didn't mention that the software wasn't available at this time. You insist it was an intentional deception.
Jerry,


I would encourage you to go back and re-read B Wilson's post. In his last response he wasn't slamming Dish & it is too bad this feature wasn't available for him to avoid a workaround. Personally I yearn for the day when I can not only adjust the up and down centering of the HD picture but also reduce the amount of overscan. I also yearn for day when my box does crump going to guides from OTA channels (less frequent now, but still happens). Am I upset, absolutely not. I view each incremental improvement as progress and am a thankful early adopter.


Fortunately there are folks like you giving great updates on progress to keep us minins of HD up to speed and expectations managed. While I doubt that the Tech Forum "feature preview" was meant to mislead, it is a major responsibility Dish has in keeping expectations managed while taking significant credit for new features, setting Dish apart from the crowd.


I tend to think we're all in violent agreement,

Tim

 

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Originally posted by Jerry G:

Dish didn't have to spend the time and money doing this, but they did. You should be thanking them instead of condemning them.


Jerry G,


You must feel real proud of yourself for doing everything right all the time. Don't tell me you have a 16:9 set? Then you crap on everyone else for not doing the same. 95% of the programming is for 4:3 sets. You must enjoy watching your set undistorted 5% of time, or else you like burning bars into your screen. Dish should should be bending over backwards to make their system compatible with the majority of sets sold. At least 10 to 50 times as many 4:3 HDTV ready sets are sold compared to 16:9 HD only sets. If Dish does not do something fast, someone else will. After all, what does it cost to pay a couple programmers to write a little app to write to a EPROM chip? They can sell 50 times as many 6000 boxes if they get their act together.



Glenn


Fruit grows on trees, not money.
 

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Glenn,


Your response is absurd and off base and shows a complete lack of understanding of me and what I said and what this thread has been about. You know nothing of my nearly three year involvement with HDTV. Your post is hardly worthy of any response.


I will however comment on:


"If Dish does not do something fast, someone else will."


And who might that be? Will full aspect control be in the next RCA box? Is it in the other DirecTV enabled STBs that are well over a year late in reaching customer's hands? Just who is this mythical "someone else" that you're referring to? Dish is doing something as fast as they can within the constraints of a company and business that does not revolve around HDTV as you wish it would. You need to think about the reality where only a minute portion of the population has any interest in or knowledge of HDTV.



"After all, what does it cost to pay a couple programmers to write a little app to write to a EPROM chip?"


Once again, it's time for that reality check.


HDTV is going very slowly. The passion that we all have for HDTV doesn't translate into the reality of a world and business model in which HDTV is a very small component. What you think should be done isn't necessarily what is best for a given business. And when what we want doesn't happen as fast as we think it should, many become rather childish and unrealistic in expressing that frustration. Believe me, I've been there. I had my HDTV for nearly 6 months before there was single HD program even available for me to see from any source. So I full well know about HDTV frustration, perhaps more than most. And because of my past experiences, I know that as hard as it is to have, without some reasonable patience, unwarranted words will spoken and unreasonable expectations will be dashed.


The passion of the HDTV enthusiasts has caused a lot of good things to happen. But that passion can't make everything happen at the time we'd like it to happen. It wouldn't surprise me if the entire HDTV world collapsed. So one needs to be a little careful in how one condemns a company that is actually trying to do something positive for HDTV. You could just end up shooting yourself in the foot.
 

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Glenn_L,


Do you understand the difference betwen a 4x3 set that performs the vertical squeeze on 1080i, and one that doesn't?


Do you understand that your TV has a design flaw that prevents it from properly displaying 1080i, and that other 4x3 RPTVs (Philips, current year Toshibas, Hitachi, Sony) do not have this flaw?


Do you understand that Dish's software update makes their receiver compatible with 4x3 RPTVs that have design flaws in their handling of 1080i?


I don't think you do.


Tell me, what exactly was the thought process you went through when you bought a TV that was known to be incapable of displaying 1080i properly?


Dish is doing you a favor by adding aspect ratio control to their HD output, but your limited understanding of the technology prevents you from recognizing this.


-Jonathan
 

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jhue,


Yes, I do understand completely.


It is no design flaw. There is no HDTV standard carved in stone. When I bought my TV, the spec's stated 1080i HDTV compatible, the same claim as all others, how can I question that?. With the severe lack of HDTV programming, it was impossible to test every HDTV ready set I looked at. Good for you that yours worked for you. Did the store have a OTA HDTV feed running on all the sets? Doubt it. I have not seen any store doing this. Most just run a DVD demo.


I will state it again because YOU don't understand business. For the small cost of a few programming hours, Dish Network will be able to pick up a lot of business from the majority of HDTV compatible set owners. The software is only for the 6000. You need to look at the numbers of the most popular 4:3 sets sold. The average consumer is not looking for a HDTV only set.


Jerry,


<<"If Dish does not do something fast, someone else will."


"And who might that be? RCA? DirecTV?">>


Yes and Yes, as well as many other makers (like the ones that made the non-compatible sets) looking to make money. Why would anyone want to buy their system if it does not work with their sets?


We are not talking rocket science here. It no big deal to make a "software only" change...geez. I'll go build my own converter box and write the software my self.


Glenn
 

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Glenn_L said:
Quote:
We are not talking rocket science here. It no big deal to make a "software only" change...geez. I'll go build my own converter box and write the software my self.


Glenn


I say go for it. Please keep us posted on your progress.


BTW, I'd actually love to see every STB have full aspect control. That way, HBO could go back to showing movies in OAR on their HD channel. Those who don't want the black bars with a 2.35 movie could simply zoom the picture.


And something else bothers me. Toshiba advertised their 4:3 sets that can't do vertical compression as HDTV compatible. Yet, when displaying an HD picture, it's distorted. Is this HD compatibility? Shouldn't you folks be labelling Toshiba as deceitful instead of Dish? Where was the Toshiba box that would correct this problem? Oh, it was over a year late in coming to market. And Toshiba should have said, "HDTV compatible with the Toshiba STB". Be honest enough to put the blame where the blame belongs, with Toshiba, not the manufacturers of other STBs.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Glenn_L:
jhue,


Yes, I do understand completely.


It is no design flaw. There is no HDTV standard carved in stone. When I bought my TV, the spec's stated 1080i HDTV compatible, the same claim as all others, how can I question that?. With the severe lack of HDTV programming, it was impossible to test every HDTV ready set I looked at. Good for you that yours worked for you. Did the store have a OTA HDTV feed running on all the sets? Doubt it. I have not seen any store doing this. Most just run a DVD demo.


I will state it again because YOU don't understand business. For the small cost of a few programming hours, Dish Network will be able to pick up a lot of business from the majority of HDTV compatible set owners. The software is only for the 6000. You need to look at the numbers of the most popular 4:3 sets sold. The average consumer is not looking for a HDTV only set.


Jerry,


<<"If Dish does not do something fast, someone else will."


"And who might that be? RCA? DirecTV?">>


Yes and Yes, as well as many other makers (like the ones that made the non-compatible sets) looking to make money. Why would anyone want to buy their system if it does not work with their sets?


We are not talking rocket science here. It no big deal to make a "software only" change...geez. I'll go build my own converter box and write the software my self.


Glenn
The HDTV standard is carved in stone and the only issue was the transport. Some wanted 8VBS others COMFD. Remember that HDTV is 16x9 displayed and you have a 4:3 display. The TV manufacturer dropped the ball when displaying HDTV not Dish. Dish and DirecTV are displaying the correct aspect ratio. RCA,Philips and other manufactures that sell 4:3 HDTV ready sets have no problem squeezing the HDTV signal but yours for whatever reason can't. This issue is with your TV not Dish. It's probably not your fault because I'm sure that whom ever sold you the TV really didn't understand HDTV, the requirments for viewing and the capabilities of that TV. Dish is decoding the signal and displaying it correctly your TV isn't.


Jim

 

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I got my toshiba 4:3 61 in hd tv in January 99 and over a year ago I went into service mode and squeezed the 1080i geometry to 16:9 and did the service level convergence. I am happy with myself and my hdtv picture. ... however, if the 6000 has crop and letterbox aspect control for 4:3, I think I`ll put the 1080 geometry back so I can watch everything full screen in hd mode (especially upconverts) and if I want to see 16:9 ... use the letterbox mode.

...but spring is here and summer is coming so and it takes at least 2 hours... maybe next winter.
 

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JERRY G


Do you think theres a chance that dish will add an anamorphic option to the HD downconversions on the SD outputs(S-video and composit) as part of aspect ratio control? This seems like a natural, since its available on every DVD player.





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Bob F.


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Quote:
Originally posted by REF:
Do you think theres a chance that dish will add an anamorphic option to the HD downconversions on the SD outputs(S-video and composit) as part of aspect ratio control? This seems like a natural, since its available on every DVD player.
I don't understand who would benefit from this feature. Owners of non-HD 16x9 TVs would benefit, and non-HD 4x3 TVs with vertical squeeze, but who else? I think that's a very small number of TVs. If you had an HD-ready TV, you'd want to send it an HD signal, not an SD signal.


-Jonathan

 

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Jonathan


Thats a good question.


I would!

I have a projector that does not sink well to HD.

I could get anamorphic DVD quality from a 6000 with stretch on SD and an anamorphic lens, scaler or HTPC.


Maybe Im getting greedy.





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Bob F.


"He thrusts his fists against the p-p-posts" Bill
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by REF:
JERRY G


Do you think theres a chance that dish will add an anamorphic option to the HD downconversions on the SD outputs(S-video and composit) as part of aspect ratio control? This seems like a natural, since its available on every DVD player.
I haven't heard of any such plans and would be very doubtful that this feature would be implemented. Although I understand your need for such a feature, the number of people who would benefit from it would be very small and not enough to warrant implementing it. That's just my guess.

 
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