AVS Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 13 of 13 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hey folks. I'm planning on upgrading my 5.1 receiver/speaker setup to a 7.1 receiver and adding 2 more speakers. Just a little Christmas present to myself. :)


My current setup is:


- Pinnacle Classic Gold Reference Mains (Tower)

- Pinnacle CG Wide Center

- Pinnacle CG Surround (small angular spkr with two 4" and 1 tweeter)

- NHT SWPi sub

- NEC LT150 DLP projector on 100" Dalite cosmo electrol screen

- Denon AV2800 (will be upgraded to either Denon 3803 or HK 525)

- Coming soon: Samsung SIR-TS160 HDTV sat rec'r.

- Lots more stuff.....


Currently the surrounds are setup at about 40" high, about 5' behind the sofa, angled towards the center of the sofa. This works great for 5.1. Of course, I have the itch to get 7.1 now.


So, I'm thinking of relocating my existing surrounds and getting a new pair of side surrounds. To do this I will have to mount the sides and rears up high, around 7' high. My ceilings are around 9.5 feet.


- What do you think of the room layout overall? Any minor tweeks I could make? I just added some sound absorbing (mexican wall hangings) on the wall to the right of the screen to help with 1st order reflections.


- Do you think mounting the surround speakers up high will work ok?


- Should I go with bipole/dipole speakers for the side surrounds, or just get another set of the angled directional surrounds and point them down at a 45o angle?


Also, I occasionally have movie nights so I have a futon on risers that I bring out for extra seating. Under the current setup they don't get great sound.


Pictures:


Current setup:


http://pages.prodigy.net/delliott00/...an-current.jpg



Proposed Setup:

http://pages.prodigy.net/delliott00/...lan-7spkrs.jpg


Thanks for any help!


-Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
447 Posts
Just my own, novice thoughts here but I would move your surrounds to a location just forward of your primary viewing position. I have found that side information is better perceived as just that -- from the side and not from the rear when slightly forward. It will also be easier to distinguish rear and side information once you add rears if the sides are slightly forward. The speakers should be directed at the primary viewing position. If you put them high, I would experiment with different placements to avoid slap echo from the ceiling. The rears should also be directed at the primary viewing position and I would experiment with different height/wall placements with these as well.


I generally don't worry about viewing positions other than the primary one. If I can make adjustments to improve sound in other positions without affecting the primary one then great but I am not willing to compromise the primary position. If I really want to impress a guest then I put them in that spot, otherwise you will find me occupying it.


Hope this helps
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
272 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
I'm doing a 7.1 set-up now also. I went to two dealers and they both told me to use dipoles on the side and rear. Then I called the rocket dealer and they told me they perfer dipoles on the side and directs as rears. I'm confused as to what I should do.

sincerely,

jimbo
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30,213 Posts
Dave,
Quote:
- What do you think of the room layout overall? Any minor tweeks I could make? I just added some sound absorbing (mexican wall hangings) on the wall to the right of the screen to help with 1st order reflections.
I think your proposed room layout for the 7.1 system is excellent; the rear speakers are nicely spread out and well behind the listeners. As for minor tweaks, I'd move the side speakers just a few inches foward, so they're directly to either side of the couch. But that's very minor. I'd also ditch the Future Center Rear; a single rear speaker along the centerline can be psychoacoustically problematic. Besides, there's no need for a speaker there because your two rears will do a fine job of placing sounds behind the listeners. BTW, good idea on the wall hangings; should help soundstaging up front.
Quote:
- Do you think mounting the surround speakers up high will work ok?
Sure. At the 7 foot high placement you proposed, you're still a couple of feet below the 9.5 foot ceiling. You may also want to raise the rears to the same height as the sides, or slightly below. This will help make rear/side pans sound a little more consistent.
Quote:
- Should I go with bipole/dipole speakers for the side surrounds, or just get another set of the angled directional surrounds and point them down at a 45o angle?
This really comes down to personal tastes so there's no right or wrong answer. Personally, I'd get another pair of the surrounds you currently have, to help get a tonal match from side to rear. I've found that diffusive speakers, like dipoles and bipoles, are more useful when you only have 2 surround speakers (as in a 5.1 system) and are trying to avoid localizing the surround information. But that's already happening in your proposed set-up, actually in a couple of ways: using 4 surround speakers and raising the surrounds above ear level will both help strike a good balance between diffusion and localizablility, without having to resort to bipole or dipole speakers.
Quote:
Also, I occasionally have movie nights so I have a futon on risers that I bring out for extra seating. Under the current setup they don't get great sound.
Things will improve slightly for those seats as they'll now have surrounds behind them. I think Glade's advice is right on the mark: improving the sound at other locations is not worth compromising the sound at the primary listening position.


Best,

Sanjay
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for all the replies.


I'm leaning towards either going with directional side speakers, or perhaps getting a set like the CSW Newton S300s, which have a switch to change between bipole and directional or both.


My side speakers can be mounted directly to the sides of the primary sofa, so that should work. My drawing makes them look slightly behind the sofa, but in reality it'll be directly to the sides.


Jimbo -- I don't care for di/bipole rear speakers. In my opinion, if you have multipole speakers they should be no further back than parallel to the primary listening position. To me, it seems the purpose of multipole speakers is to give the effect of both side/back speakers while only using 1 pair instead of two. I was concerned that if I went with a bipole on the sides and directional in the back, would I be muddying the rear sound field too much? I may just have to try both and see. However, if you're doing a 5.1 setup, I would definitely go with multipole speakers to the sides.



When we built our house I had the choice of either a small (10x13') dedicated media room or picking a floor plan with a great room that was suitable for home theater. I'm glad this worked our so well. Even in the current setup, it sounds really great. Now if I could only close off the rear openings with some sort of drop down acoustic panels ;-)


Thanks again.


-Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Quote:
I'd also ditch the Future Center Rear; a single rear speaker along the centerline can be psychoacoustically problematic. Besides, there's no need for a speaker there because your two rears will do a fine job of placing sounds behind the listeners.
Sanjay,


I would be interested in your reasons for ditching the center rear, other than your explanation (which I know is correct) that a single rear speaker can be problematic (e.g., rear sounds appear to be coming from the front).

In particular, if Dave E suggested placing two rear speakers to carry the EX/ES/ES Discrete channel, would you still recommend against it?


I have a speaker arrangement very similar to Dave E's proposed configuration, with each surround signal (R and L) split to separate amp channels and separate monopolar speakers placed at the side-forward (relative to listening position) and side-rear positions. I am currently struggling with where to position two additional back speakers for the sixth channel (EX/ES/ES Discrete). One idea I had was to simply leave them out, since the regular L and R surround signals aleady include the sixth channel information. Alternatively, I could position two speakers along the back wall, either close together (as currently recommended for THX Ultra 2) or more separated (which I would probably favor). What do you think? Ditch the two back speakers altogether, or add them to the speaker array I have already implemented?


Thanks for your thoughts,


Cliff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
52 Posts
I went 4it. I ordered 2-750's, 1-300, 2-200, and the tuffie was the rears, I went with Sean from Rockets recommendation the 150's (monopole).

Total cost with shipping is $2647.00 to Rochester NY.


I'm hoping u guys/gals from this forum have steered me in the right direction. I auditioned the Paradigm system with the 100's for a tad over $3600, so that a $1,000 difference.


I'm going with dipoles on the sides and monopole for the rears on a 7.1 system. I'v got my door open now waiting for my HK 8000 to arrive.


My speakers are on backorder so I'v got some wiggle room on the rears. I'm still not sure if I should go with the monopole vs dipole. THX says dipoles all the way around. Both local dealers said to use Dipoles. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated.


My room dimensions are 11.5' x 25.5. My couch is zackly 6' from the back wall.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
730 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by jimbo14626
I went 4it. I ordered 2-750's, 1-300, 2-200, and the tuffie was the rears, I went with Sean from Rockets recommendation the 150's (monopole).

Total cost with shipping is $2647.00 to Rochester NY.


My speakers are on backorder so I'v got some wiggle room on the rears. I'm still not sure if I should go with the monopole vs dipole. THX says dipoles all the way around. Both local dealers said to use Dipoles. Any help in this area would be greatly appreciated.
I think you mean 2-300's and 1-200 ;)


Also, the THX standard for 7.1 says bi/dipoles on the sides and monopoles in the rear. So I also agree to go with the 150's unless you want to pay more for 250's or 550's.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
30,213 Posts
Hi Cliff,
Quote:
I would be interested in your reasons for ditching the center rear, other than your explanation (which I know is correct) that a single rear speaker can be problematic (e.g., rear sounds appear to be coming from the front). In particular, if Dave E suggested placing two rear speakers to carry the EX/ES/ES Discrete channel, would you still recommend against it?
No, in that case I wouldn't recommend against it. As you correctly pointed out, my main concern is about having a single surround speaker along the centre line. But looking the diagram of Dave's proposed set-up, I didn't get the impression that he was going to use a single speaker for EX/ES. The 2 speakers to the sides of the couch seem to be for the L&R surround channels, while the 2 speakers further behind looked like they were for the surround-back channel. (Dave, correct me if I'm mistaken.)


So this leaves the 8th speaker; the one marked "Future Center Rear". Aside from possible front/back reversal problems, I have other concerns. What sound is going to be fed to this speaker? Will it be something derived using one of those "add-on" boxes? If so, how will he independently apply bass management or time alignment or volume adjustment, as he does with each of his other speakers? What material, if any, would benefit from this particular 8.1 speaker arrangement. Etc.
Quote:
I have a speaker arrangement very similar to Dave E's proposed configuration, with each surround signal (R and L) split to separate amp channels and separate monopolar speakers placed at the side-forward (relative to listening position) and side-rear positions.
If I understand correctly, you're doing what's done in commercial set-ups (like movie theaters): using a speaker array on each side for the surrounds. As long as you're not having volume level or time alignment issues, I see no problem with your set-up.
Quote:
I am currently struggling with where to position two additional back speakers for the sixth channel (EX/ES/ES Discrete). One idea I had was to simply leave them out, since the regular L and R surround signals aleady include the sixth channel information.
Yeah, but then you don't get the intended benefit of EX/ES. I mean, your 2 front speakers will reproduce all the information in a Dolby Surround soundtrack, but wouldn't you rather use Pro Logic or PL II decoding and listen over a 5.1 speaker set-up? I think it's worth routing EX/ES information to separate speakers.
Quote:
Alternatively, I could position two speakers along the back wall, either close together (as currently recommended for THX Ultra 2) or more separated (which I would probably favor).
I'd go for the 2 speakers along the back wall, spread well apart. I think the close proximity of the surround-back speakers is the one weak point in the THX Ultra 2 spec. As for location: if you want something to sound like it's coming from behind you, there's no substitute for simply having speakers physically located behind you.
Quote:
What do you think? Ditch the two back speakers altogether, or add them to the speaker array I have already implemented?
Add them to the speaker arrays you already have. Personally though, I'd stick to 7 speakers total: 3 front, 2 sides, 2 rears. I've found arrays unnecessary on 7.1 set-ups and I'v never been too comfortable with them due to lack of individual speaker control. While 2 surround-back speakers could be considered an array (because they're reproducing a single channel), you'll notice that many receivers and processors allow you to adjust the speaker distance and/or volume level for each speaker.


Best,

Sanjay
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
Thanks, Sanjay.


Yes, you are right, I am using a speaker array on each side for the surrounds. The one thing I would like to clarify is that I do have total control over each individual speaker in my surround arrays. With line-level volume controls I balance each speaker in the array (side-forward and side-rear) to match each other, and then carefully balance the level of the two surround speakers together to match the individual L/C/R speakers in the setup. Before adopting this arrangement, I tested both dipoles and bipoles in my system, and decided that I preferred two monopolar speakers for the surrounds on each side better than a single dipolar speaker placed at the side, or a single bipolar speaker placed in a variety of positions. YMMV!


I do appreciate your reasoning about including the back channel speakers. So far I have tried them close together (3 ft) and did not sense that there was a significant enhancement. I have yet to try them further apart.


Regards,


Cliff
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
197 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Sanjay,


You're right. I don't plan on adding an 8th center rear speaker unless a format appears which gives it a discrete signal compared to the 6th/7th rear surrounds. I don't currently see any need for it. I only placed it in the plan because I do have a perfect spot for it if someone were to suggest that route is better, or if a future format could utilize it.


With 6.1 DD and DTS-ES, I'll reproduce the rear channel with the two rear surrounds. Both receivers I'm considering apparently do a very good job at this. Plus, I believe some of the processing modes allow the receiver to derive a unique L/R rear surround. I'm not sure I'd use it, but it'd be worth a listen.


Jimbo - definitely give us your impressions about the Rockets. While I love my Pinnacles, they aren't the most beautiful speakers on the planet, and someday I'd like to upgrade to something more aesthetic like a Rocket or B&W.


Thanks again everyone.


-Dave
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
272 Posts
What receivers are you considering for your 7.1 upgrade? I'm also thinking of making the change as I move my setup into a new room. Denon 3803 seems to be a hot choice right now. And just to confirm: the DVD player doesn't need to have special 7.1 capability, right? Thanks.
 
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top