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Following our recent 1080 vs 720 shoot-out in Athens ( http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...&post9157454 ), we couldn't resist the temptation to make another mini 1080-720 shoot out, when some of our forum members ( www.avclub.gr ) gathered to have a first look on the new BenQ W10000 1080 dlp! Of course that was possible because our host Tasos was actually an owner of the BenQ 8720 720 dlp model, which is similar in many ways to the 1080 model (same lens, case, electronics,scaler/deintrlacer by faroudja etc.)






A few words on the set up: The test was performed in a bat cave Home Theater room equipped with a 2:35:1 custom made Screen-Line screen of 2,75 meters (9,02 ft) width and 1,2 gain. The seating distance for the front row is 3,80 meters (12,46 ft)

from the screen, while for the second row is 4,80 meters (15,74 ft).

Both projectors were D65 calibrated and matched in Brightness.

As sources, we used a Toshiba HD-DVD HD-E1 for HD and a Denon A11 (5900) connected through SDI to a DVDO VP50 scaler. Both sources were connected through HDMI to a Gefen 2:2 splitter/switcher which was feeding the same signal to both projectors SIMULTANEOUSLY!

The HD-DVD was outputting 1920X1080i HD signal and the DVDO scaler 576i SD signal. As HD material we used several reference titles like King Kong, Batman Begins etc

We followed a different approach from the previous test. This time, we tried to create one image out of the two projectors, by assigning each half of the picture to each projector after having carefully aligned their panels as best as we could!




The results were very interesting and pretty much confirmed the results of our previous shoot-out: The differences in terms of perceived resolution by the two projectors when fed by 576i SD and 1080i HD film material were from non-apparent to very small!

This is even more interesting if you consider that the comparison for the 720 model was rather unfair, as it had not only to deinterlace the signal as the 1080 model, but to also downscale it to its native resolution!

Note also, that both projectors are well known for their clarity and razor-sharp image due to a very good Cosina lens they both equipped with. Both produced after calibration a very detailed and three-dimensional image and the W 10000 produced improved black level and consequently better perceived on-off contrast probably due to the new 1080 panel.

Enough with the mumbling!

Bring on the screen-shots!


Yes, in every screenshot there are two projectors at the same time (one left-one right)

No, I am not gonna tell you yet, which one is which!

Have fun!


PS: Kudos to Manolis, Christos, Tasos and the rest of the gang for this team-efford!



 

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Discussion Starter #2
HD-DVD:





 

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Discussion Starter #3
SD-DVD







 

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Thats it for now. Tommorow, I will try to upload a few more images!
 

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Interesting comparison since the main difference between the 2 projectors is resolution. However, I think it would be easier to spot the differences if both images were side by side, vs split screen.


I also wonder how this would have looked if you used a true 1080p source.
 

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Having owned both I can attest that the differences between the two get more noticeable as you get closer to the screen and less noticeable the further you get from it. Personally, I like to sit as close as reasonably possible to be immersed and at the distances I like to sit from its a little bit more than " non-apparent to very small!"


Did any/all try to get closer than just the seating areas?
 

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Discussion Starter #7

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit07 /forum/post/0


Interesting comparison since the main difference between the 2 projectors is resolution. However, I think it would be easier to spot the differences if both images were side by side, vs split screen.


I also wonder how this would have looked if you used a true 1080p source.

You are right on both accounts. We didnt have the luxury of time to perform the test as the previous time (the same image projected in split screen) and no 1080p desktop source available for now.
 

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Discussion Starter #8

Quote:
Originally Posted by Catdaddy67 /forum/post/0


Having owned both I can attest that the differences between the two get more noticeable as you get closer to the screen and less noticeable the further you get from it. Personally, I like to sit as close as reasonably possible to be immersed and at the distances I like to sit from its a little bit more than " non-apparent to very small!"


Did any/all try to get closer than just the seating areas?

I did approach the screen at 2 meters (very close) but it was harder to spot the differences than I imagined. In the previous shoot-out where we used HD video material the differences were a bit more apparent at the same distance, so I assume that the filtering of the film may be contributing to a certain loss of detail in comparison to the razor-sharp material shot on video HD.
 

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Very interesting, whilst there were noticeable differences in colour with the Marantz projectors, these are virtually indistinguishable. From other comparisons on here, you would imagine there was something inately better about 1080p DMDs other than resolution.

These are small screenshots though, and after demoing a few 1080p projectors now, I am starting to notice pixel structure more than before. I guess you get accustomed to a good thing. After seeing the RS1, with its 'invisible' pixel structure, 720p DLP with a 70% fill rate is starting to look a bit dodgy. When I saw the RS1, I was stood a foot away and the only structure I saw was the micro-perforations on the screen. The screen was 110" BTW.

Depends where you like to sit in the cinema, I guess.


I'll take a wild guess and say the one on the right is the 8720.


One more thing, I would love to see a shootout like this, with screenshots 4x the size, between the C3X and HT5000.
 

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What this shows is that, at worst, you are getting an incredible picture with your 720p projector. Yes, it can get noticably better, especially as the sources improve, but the fact is that we are really hindered by sources more than equipment in most cases.


Granted, this has been said so many times before...
 

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Not that one can really tell from the screen shots, but for what it's worth the left side consistently comes off as a teeny bit sharper to my eyes.


*now expects this to be the 720p model*
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness /forum/post/0


Not that one can really tell from the screen shots, but for what it's worth the left side consistently comes off as a teeny bit sharper to my eyes.


*now expects this to be the 720p model*

im thinking the same thing
.
 

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Great work, as usual, guys. Assuming both projectors were focused as sharply as possible, then 1080p was on the left. The right hand side is a little brighter. So this may have biased the audience to rate the 720p a little more highly than otherwise would have been the case.


1080p has 1.5X the resolution of 720p in each dimension. The effects of this resolution difference are easily simulated in photoshop. For example, I downloaded and cropped a part of the left hand side of one of the images. 720p is then simulated by the following steps:

- interpolating up by a factor of 2 (in each dimension)

- decimating down by a factor of 3

- interpolating up by a factor of 3

- decimating down by a factor of 2

The first 2 steps effectively change the native sample rate from 1080p to 720p. The last 2 steps scale the image back to 1080p so that it can be displayed on the same pixel grid. As takisot points out, this all this scaling and re-scaling is a bit unfair to the 720p case. Be that as it may, here is the comparison:




I think the differences are comparable with those shown in the actual side by side photos (but now demonstrated with exactly the same source material). Of course, it all depends on having a high resolution source to begin with. For another experiment, I started with a reasonably high res digital photo. I decimated by 2 to make the 1080p resolution simulated image (upper panel) and decimated by 3, interpolated by 3, then decimated by 2 to make the 720p image (lower panel), eg:




A more obvious difference now, no ? At the right viewing distance, one looks like a window, one doesn't. Again, the 720p simulation suffers from having to go through more scaling steps.


On a related subject, I have long suspected that the main practical advantage of 1080p may well be the reduction of pixelation and screen door, allowing one to sit good and close (at 1.5X) without being able to see these artifacts. SDE should have been pretty obvious from the front row (1.4X screen widths) on the 720p. Any comments on that ?


Brent
 

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Discussion Starter #14
Some more HD shots:





 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mit07 /forum/post/0


Interesting comparison since the main difference between the 2 projectors is resolution. However, I think it would be easier to spot the differences if both images were side by side, vs split screen.


I also wonder how this would have looked if you used a true 1080p source.


Hi Mit07.


Exept the fact that we didn't have a 1080 p source at that time, 8720 does not accept 1080p input on hdmi !
 

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As you already noticed, this time our ISF calibrator, Manolis, managed to get both projectors as close as possible colourwise.


The fact that in our previous shootout with the two Marantz's was not so close, people had a hard time to get rid of this difference, because it's to obvious.


This time i think we did it , so eye is focused on all the differences !!
 

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Reading your comment about split picture, i can not agree more. But....


...to us is more important having these tests in the best viewing condition s . Unfortunately for us, we have one or two completely dark rooms, and as you can understand there is only one screen installed in there.


So we prefer to split the screen and try to find appropriate scenes , instead of having these tests in a rather big room that we can install two screens, but we will not have the possibility of making them .....dark !



Christos!
 

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The trouble with pics is that they are all reduced in resolution to fit them onto the forum, so both 1080 and 720 end up down res'd and the differences become harder to distinguish.


Brilliant idea to do a split screen effect though. Any change of hosting full res images (greater than 1080) on another site?


Gary
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Lightfoot /forum/post/0


The trouble with pics is that they are all reduced in resolution to fit them onto the forum, so both 1080 and 720 end up down res'd and the differences become harder to distinguish.


Brilliant idea to do a split screen effect though. Any change of hosting full res images (greater than 1080) on another site?


Gary


Sure thing.


But unfortunately i do not have plenty of space to upload them all.


I chose two of them. One in sd and one in hd.


They are two that we are already uploaded here, so you can also see the differences.



Try those two links.


http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/564300


http://briefcase.pathfinder.gr/download/564301



I hope you get them





I give also the pictures info to see also the equipment i used.


The canon was on a stand of course with timer



 

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I would like to mention that this shoot out took place , in our first "contact" with the new W10000.


The Benq W10000, is the first projector that we had with the new 0.8" TI chip. ( now we expect the new Sharp20000/21000)



All & all, the new dmd structure , gave us very good impression and seems very promising from black & contrast side.



Have a look in the new structure, that you can easily see, if you get your eyes very close to the screen...


 
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