AVS Forum banner

Do you see false contouring/ghosting artifact in 96 Hz mode?

  • Yes, I see it and it is somewhat bothersome

    Votes: 1 100.0%
  • Yes, I see it and it does not bother me at all

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • No, I do not see it

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    1
1 - 20 of 103 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Note: This is not the banding or contouring which you might see in grayscale ramp or color gradations in static images typical in many plasmas. This is only in 96 Hz and only in vt25. This is a motion artifact due to 96 Hz processing.


Please, this is not a whining thread, but just to raise some awareness so that maybe Panasonic might fix this with a firmware thread. First of all great TV. I guess I am not going to repeat the positive attributes of this series. There has been enough written about it. I am creating this thread so that maybe I and others could catalog some experience with direct reference to movies where this artifact is seen.


This artifact happens only in 96 Hz mode when there is a 1080p/24 signal into the TV. It does not happen when it is in 48 Hz or 60 Hz (2:3 pulldown). Currently you can output such a signal from only a 24p enabled BD or HDDVD player. With the TV in 96 Hz, in certain scenes false contours can be seen on moving objects on the screen (usually lateral movement). Typically this shows up when the objects are out of focus and moving with respect to the camera (still camera and object moving or camera panning and object still). During such a scenario, false contours or lines are evident on the object. Sometimes the contours/lines have a bit color to them giving the moving out of focus object a dirty look. This artifact disappears when changing the mode to 48 Hz or 60 Hz. No other setting helps with this issue.


I have seen in 70% of my movies here and there. It is not an artifact that you see constantly. In some movies it is more prevalent than others, and in some movies I have not noticed (I do not know why so), but the artifact is in the 96 Hz mode, not in the source. I do not have a defective set as I have seen the same issue on a store display and also on last year's v10. CNET mentions of this artifact in their review......

"On the other hand, we were surprised to find that the VT20/25 evinced false contouring artifacts in 96Hz mode. They were relatively rare, but certainly obvious when we saw them, which was only in transitions between bright and dark areas that moved across the screen. We first noticed it in Chapter 12 (47:25), where the glow of the pods illuminating the Omaticaya council showed banding contours as opposed to the smooth gradation from light to dark seen on the other displays. Similar bands were visible in the torch Neytiri extinguishes in Chapter 11 (36:30). No adjustment we tried seemed to affect the issue, aside from switching back to 60Hz, which made the contouring much less noticeable (and no worse than on the other sets). In our view the correct cadence is worth the tradeoff for occasional contouring artifacts, so we kept the set at 96Hz for movies, but we wish we didn't have to make that decision. We also looked at the V10 from last year and saw similar contouring in 96Hz, which we missed in our initial review."


For discerning eyes, it is very noticeable and I am baffled why there were no reports from 2009 and for the 2010 vt25, I have seen only 4 or 5 folks complaining about it. I am wondering how the issue could be relayed to Panasonic so that they take some action. Can someone with connections to Panny help with that? This is a great TV, but would be greater if 96 Hz was without such error. 48 Hz is not usable due to flicker, and 60 Hz has the usual telecine judder to deal with.


Examples:


1. Book of Eli - Scene at the beginning of the movie, when Denzel Washington walks into this abandoned house, sits down and roasts some meat on a fire, as his head moves back and forth, you can see the false contours on his slightly blurred face.


2. Sunshine Cleaning - Towards the middle of the movie, Amy Adams' sister burns down a client's house and when Amy approaches the scene and bangs on the truck window, she subsequently moves towards the burning house, you can see false contours along her hairline as her slightly blurred head moves across and out of the camera.


3. Dan in Real Life - Towards the beginning of the movie, when Steve Carrell is outside his house and her daughters are running to get into the school bus, there is a shot of his head moving across the frame, where false contours are seen on his slightly blurred face.


4. Crossing Over (2009): At 34:44 mark, when the Bangladeshi immigrant family is having dinner and the ICE agents barge in, the camera zooms on the female ICE agent and then pans around the room to the two Bangladeshi muslim girls and you can this artifact galore on the out-of-focus moving faces of the girls. The false contours on the girls faces have a greenish color to them kinda looks like phosphor trails, but it is not that. You can call the artifact ghosting also. The intensity of the artifact is as strong I have ever seen. When I switched to 48 Hz or 60 Hz, it is gone.....just normal blur and judder.


You cannot miss this example. If you do not see this one, I am sorry you need to get your eyes checked.



5. Avatar: From CNET.......We first noticed it in Chapter 12 (47:25), where the glow of the pods illuminating the Omaticaya council showed banding contours as opposed to the smooth gradation from light to dark seen on the other displays. Similar bands were visible in the torch Neytiri extinguishes in Chapter 11 (36:30). No adjustment we tried seemed to affect the issue, aside from switching back to 60Hz, which made the contouring much less noticeable (and no worse than on the other sets).


I understand folks who do not see it and already have this set reluctant to check this out, but folks who are thinking of buying a vt25 might want to check out this artifact to make sure you can live with it. I am having trouble with it and reluctantly will have to resort to 60 Hz from now on and deal with 3:2 pulldown judder. It is less bothersome than this artifact in 96 Hz.


P.S. If you do not see this issue, please do not flame this thread. Good for you then. Maybe you will never notice it, or you will once you accumulate some viewing hours on the set. I noticed it from the first movie I saw, and I would have even if the CNET review did not come out with a similar observation.

Can anyone report the same findings in vt30 with the same scenes? Thanks!
 

·
AVS Forum Special Member
Joined
·
11,139 Posts
Owner's manual for my '09 Panasonic TH-65VX100U suggests 3:2 pulldown ON kicks in 96 Hz for 24p material only for 1080/60i signal inputs. Manual doesn't mention 96 Hz but only "a more natural interpretation" of 24p. A pro reviewer spoke with a Sony engineer about the 96 Hz aspect. Haven't noticed any artifacts at supposed 96 Hz viewings here, but I watch cable mostly from YPbPr, and rare Blu-rays from a Sony PS3 using HDMI. -- John
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #3

Quote:
Originally Posted by John Mason /forum/post/18931237


Owner's manual for my '09 Panasonic TH-65VX100U suggests 3:2 pulldown ON kicks in 96 Hz for 24p material only for 1080/60i signal inputs. Manual doesn't mention 96 Hz but only "a more natural interpretation" of 24p. A pro reviewer spoke with a Sony engineer about the 96 Hz aspect. Haven't noticed any artifacts at supposed 96 Hz viewings here, but I watch cable mostly from YPbPr, and rare Blu-rays from a Sony PS3 using HDMI. -- John

You are not going to see it in cable. It is only for 24p material and only in 96 Hz. Also since your monitor is a professional one, I can't say for certain if the problem is there or not. I know that the v10 has it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
I am wondering what is the difference between 48 Hz and 96 Hz besides that the refresh rate is doubled. In 48 Hz the TV is doing 1,1,2,2,3,3, with the 24p frames and in 96 Hz it is just double of that 1,1,1,1,2,2,2,2,3,3,3,3.....


In terms of processing I cannot fathom any difference between the two except that the same frame is now being displayed two more times compared to 48 Hz. Why would an artifact show up in 96 Hz and not in 48 Hz? Hmmmm....unless the TV has hardware limitation with a high refresh rate of 96 Hz. Then again, I checked the same scenes on a Samsung 58c8000 and while it throws a less stellar pic, it played the scenes in 96 Hz without the same artifacts. So I am hoping that maybe this could be addressed with a firmware fix (Sammy is known to have better processing that Panny or Sony for that matter).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
Not to make your lives miserable, but maybe some folks could check out the same scenes I indicated and post findings. The Book of Eli scene is very obvious.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
David Katzmeier at CNET who did the vt25 review e-mailed me to my query indicating that Panasonic is aware of this issue. Whether a fix would be made or if something like this could be fixed with a firmware update is not known.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,951 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dandaroy /forum/post/18943231


David Katzmeier at CNET who did the vt25 review e-mailed me to my query indicating that Panasonic is aware of this issue. Whether a fix would be made or if something like this could be fixed with a firmware update is not known.

So, Panasonic is aware of rising black levels, and they are aware of your issue. It sucks that we don't have access to the agendas of those who are doing the planning for the next 2 years.


I hope that picture quality issues do not end up getting less attention at the same time 3D is actually starting to take-off.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #8

Quote:
Originally Posted by spyboy /forum/post/18943438


So, Panasonic is aware of rising black levels, and they are aware of your issue. It sucks that we don't have access to the agendas of those who are doing the planning for the next 2 years.


I hope that picture quality issues do not end up getting less attention at the same time 3D is actually starting to take-off.

This TV would have been perfect, if not for this 96 Hz artifact. Once you know how to identify the issue it is pretty apparent on 24p BD playback. I have to know figure which option I can live with better - 1. 96 Hz and accept the artifact or 2. playback at 60 Hz live with 2:3 pulldown judder. 48 Hz is not usable becuase of flicker. I wish I did not have to make this choice.


I honestly do not know why more folks are not seeing it. I am certain they would if the artifact was pointed out to them. The fact that more folks do not see it does not bode well for the fix since Panny probably will not care for a few if they did not care enough for the rising blacks.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,015 Posts
What about the blur reduction setting? From what I saw on the VT25 on screen menu it adds subfields to help smoothen movement and keep picture clear. Does it remove (some) artifacts when used with 96 Hz mode or does it just worsen the picture quality... Does it make a difference at all? And at 60 Hz, does it help reduce judder?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #11

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhan /forum/post/18946248


What about the blur reduction setting? From what I saw on the VT25 on screen menu it adds subfields to help smoothen movement and keep picture clear. Does it remove (some) artifacts when used with 96 Hz mode or does it just worsen the picture quality... Does it make a difference at all? And at 60 Hz, does it help reduce judder?

Blur reduction has no effect on this. In fact nothing but switching to 60 or 48 Hz removes the artifact. I would gladly use 48 Hz if not for the flickering. 60 Hz does smoothen some 24p judder with the 3:2 pulldown, but it also introduces from hitching in the pans. Although with the 96 Hz mode unresolved, it might be a better option overall for me. Too bad this is a blip on this great tv.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #12

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_blue /forum/post/18946605


I assume this is what you're referring to?

No I do not think that is the same issue. The UK forum seem to be complaining about blurring/ghosting for even TV programs. What I am talking about happens only in 96 Hz from a 24p playback. The effect is not a blur. In fact, I have no complaints about motion blur on this TV.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
I sent a very detailed e-mail to Panasonic and this is their ridiculous canned response. Proves that the first tier technical support is moronic. I already answered all the questions they asked in this response. It appears that they did not even read through my e-mail.

Thank you for your inquiry. Based on the information that you have provided, we will still need additional information on the false contours that you have explained. Just a bit more information would be helpful, for instance, is this happening while watching regular television or while in 3d mode? What is your signal? Are you connected to a cable box, satellite receiver, or antenna? Try changing out the cables, also try plugging the power cord directly into the wall as opposed to being in a surge protector. Also try resetting the television. If you have any additional questions or concerns, please feel free to contact our technical support hotline at 1-800-211-7262. Thank you for choosing Panasonic.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,015 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dandaroy /forum/post/18946719


Blur reduction has no effect on this. In fact nothing but switching to 60 or 48 Hz removes the artifact. I would gladly use 48 Hz if not for the flickering. 60 Hz does smoothen some 24p judder with the 3:2 pulldown, but it also introduces from hitching in the pans. Although with the 96 Hz mode unresolved, it might be a better option overall for me. Too bad this is a blip on this great tv.

Ok, so blur reduction has no effect on false contouring in 96Hz mode... but does blur reduction help reduce 60hz judder? When I read the TV user menu descriptions (in french) it says that bur reductiion creates sub "frames". So I thought motion could become a bit smoother when blur reduction is turned on?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #15

Quote:
Originally Posted by dhan /forum/post/18950478


Ok, so blur reduction has no effect on false contouring in 96Hz mode... but does blur reduction help reduce 60hz judder? When I read the TV user menu descriptions (in french) it says that bur reductiion creates sub "frames". So I thought motion could become a bit smoother when blur reduction is turned on?

blur and judder are two different things......blur reduction does not have any effect on any judder whatsoever.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #16
Well heard back from Panasonic Engineering regarding this issue after getting past the first tier technical support.


In a nutshell, there is no defect with the TV in 96 Hz (now why the f**k did I not think of that?) and therefore there will be no fix. If I do not like the 96 Hz, then I am told to use the 48 Hz (according to them the flicker makes for a more cinematic appearance) or the 60 Hz.


This coupled with the fact that not many folks see this as an issue, means that this will be the end of this issue for Panasonic. This 96 Hz artifact will be there in this years model, was there in last years model and probably will be in future years models as well.


Whatever!!!!!!!!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
954 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by dandaroy /forum/post/18962108


Well heard back from Panasonic Engineering regarding this issue after getting past the first tier technical support.


In a nutshell, there is no defect with the TV in 96 Hz (now why the f**k did I not think of that?) and therefore there will be no fix. If I do not like the 96 Hz, then I am told to use the 48 Hz (according to them the flicker makes for a more cinematic appearance) or the 60 Hz.


This coupled with the fact that not many folks see this an issue, means that this will be the end of this issue for Panasonic. This 96 Hz artifact will be there in this years model, was there in last years model and probably will be in future years models as well.


Whatever!!!!!!!!

No surprise!!! Look at their track record with the rising black issue and the floating black issue. Just shun them off, until it gets enough press, then call it a feature. I can see it now: Our TV's feature an automatic gradation control, that enhances gradation and contrast in our 96hz mode. Panasonic doesn't admit their faults, so they can never provide a fix. I think its a Japanese cultural thing
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #18

Quote:
Originally Posted by mustangs1 /forum/post/18962203


No surprise!!! Look at their track record with the rising black issue and the floating black issue. Just shun them off, until it gets enough press, then call it a feature. I can see it now: Our TV's feature an automatic gradation control, that enhances gradation and contrast in our 96hz mode. Panasonic doesn't admit their faults, so they can never provide a fix. I think its a Japanese cultural thing

I understand all TVs will have flaws, but blowing off customer technical complaints is not the way to make products better. The least they could do it play back the clips I told them to and seen the problem firsthand without resorting to canned responses like this:

Dear Sir:


Thank you for your inquiry!


There is no firmware update available for this because this is not a

defect in the television set.


The 48 Hz setting is available for those who want to experience a more

cinematic picture. The 48 Hz setting has excellent motion resolution, but

flicker does occur. The excellent motion resolution and some flicker looks

like the picture in cinema and film.


The 60 Hz setting is available for those who donżt like the flicker. If

you don't like the look that occurs in the 96 Hz setting, you should

choose the 60 or 48Hz setting.


Choosing between hertz setting is a personal preference.


We hope this information is beneficial to you.


Thank you for your interest in Panasonic products.


Thank You,

Panasonic Consumer Support
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,034 Posts
Discussion Starter #19
Another Example:

4. Crossing Over (2009): At 34:44 mark, when the Bangladeshi immigrant family is having dinner and the ICE agents barge in, the camera zooms on the female ICE agent and then pans around the room to the two Bangladeshi muslim girls and you can this artifact galore on the out-of-focus moving faces of the girls. The false contours on the girls faces have a greenish color to them kinda looks like phosphor trails, but it is not that. You can call the artifact ghosting also. The intensity of the artifact is as strong I have ever seen. When I switched to 48 Hz or 60 Hz, it is gone.....just normal blur and judder.


You cannot miss this example. If you do not see this one, I am sorry you need to get your eyes checked. I understand folks who do not see it and already have this set reluctant to check this out, but folks who are thinking of buying a vt25 might want to check out this artifact to make sure you can live with it. I am having trouble with it and reluctantly will have to resort to 60 Hz from now on and deal with 3:2 pulldown judder. It is less bothersome than this artifact in 96 Hz.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1 Posts
I was planning to buy this tv but since it exhibits the same artifacts as my european model of the G10 (dynamic false contouring @ 96hz and posterization in general like a tn panel lol), i'll never buy anymore panasonic plasma screen. Before my G10 purchase, I had a crt (a sony wega) and apart a relatively bad geometry, dynamic false contouring and posterization never shows on my screen... that's too bad that hdtv crt production was stopped.
 
1 - 20 of 103 Posts
Top