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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Just got done with a fairly brief in-house demo of the 7200. Let me get all the limitations and environmental settings out up front:


- Brand new 7200 - less than 10 hours on it.

- No calibration except notching the brightness down from 50 to 44.

- Tested at night with both all lights out and with a 40W GE Natural Light lamp on the floor behind the viewing couch.

- Generic Sony DVD with Tributaries Delta component video cables.

- Portable 4:3 80" diag white 1.0 screen

- Mounted on small table 1' in front of couch

- Coming from a Toshiba 56" HD-RPTV (56H80 - just sold it!)


Visual observations: No WOW factor here - just a very nice picture, but nothing was outstanding. I liked the color balance - very natural looking colors, but nothing close to vibrant, almost wet looking saturated colors. Skin tones looked pretty close out of the box.


Black Level: with the above demo parameters, blacks were only OK. Certain scenes which were generally dark, or clothes that were dark/black lost shadow detail. Definitely left me wanting more.


Detail/Resolution: Again I give it Good, but a little below my expectations. Details of the rocks in the Superbit version of Vertical Limit and people's faces just weren't there. I think this may be the category to say that overall the picture was clear, clean, but lacked depth or 3D dimensionality. However, panning and motion scenes were very well done (smooth) with little judder or artifacting.


Noise: Without the sound system hooked up and the 7200 sitting about 3 ft. in front of me on a table, it was definitely audible, but not bad (not a screamer like a Delta 6K fan on a PC HSF :) ). I suspect it will be significantly reduced when mounted on the ceiling about 6' away and the sound system turned on.


Rainbows: I definitely can say I now see them. Wasn't sure in the past with the few times I've seen 1G DLP's. But, I had to work at it to see them. It took brighter objects (best, easily repeatable scenario is the scene on Chocolate where the Count is working at his desk and the silver plate tea pot is on his desk. Looking at the silver pot and then quickly turning my head to speak to the dealer off to the side and I could see bright RGB flashes) and quick eye/head movements to get them to happen. I didn't really see any if I just concentrated on watching the movie so it may not be a deal breaker for me.....


OK, I know this was far from ideal viewing settings. However, I would like to hear from those with DLP experience, especially to those few lucky initial users who now have the Infocus 7200 how much difference/improvement I should expect given changes to the above demo settings. Eg., AVIA calibration, Stewart Firehawk screen, ceiling mounted, etc. Thanks in advance - I'll need to give a go/no go by end of next week.


Cheers,

dagger
 

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dagger,

Quote:
"I'll need to give a go/no go by end of next week.
It sounds like you still have the 7200, then? If I'm not being too forward, and you still have it, I would love to take a look at it for a second opinion.


I have to say that I am a little surprised by your report, as there are other reports here that state the opposite view.


E-mail me if interested: markh at milori dot com . I have some fun toys I could bring down.
 

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daggerNC - thanks for the report. Sounds like you were calibrating by eye? Perhaps you can take a cali DVD with you and tune it to the reference points. Taking the brightness down to that level seems low to me, especially considering there was no contrast adjustment to go along with it. The 7200 seems very sensitive to small number changes - so its possible that your adjustment reduced the image quality. If you can't calibrate it with a DVD perhaps you can try again using the default settings. Also try enabling high power mode to see if that helps add some depth.


Also, and most importantly, what are you using in your head as a frame of reference as far as color saturation and overall PQ go?


I've seen the HT300+ and 7200 and I can say that the 7200 definately had Wow factor that I didn't experience with the HT300+. Conditions were not ideal for the 7200 but I will be reviewing the pj shortly under ideal conditions and Avia calibrated with a full report to follow.
 

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Mark - if you do manage to get your hands on a 7200 please post your measurements and findings. Would love to hear more about what is measured and actual specs - lumens, CR, etc. I've heard measured field numbers on the S2 but not the 7200 yet. Thanks.
 

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Sorry to hear of your dissapointment. I must say that I am on the other side of the coin. I get great detail, wet colors, black blacks. I have the mt8 but I doubt that there is anything different from the 7200. I feel I am very particular with regards to my audio and video. I am glad I have mine!


Good luck!

mw
 

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The InFocus is a 1000 lumens projector which is really a lot of firepower for a 80" diagonal screen (5 foot wide). It is a bit much to expect this projector to have deep blacks on such a small white screen. We are probably looking at around 50-60 footlamberts. I think the results would be much better if you put the projector in economy mode and slapped a ND filter on it that cuts 50% of the brightness. Did you use a test DVD to make sure that brightness and contrast are set properly as seen with gray scale ramps?
 

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I agree with Scott. Try a larger screen and I'm sure a gray screen will further improve the blacks. :)


Tom
 

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Not only the size of the screen, but the construction of the screen. I was informed (in a good way) that the portable screen I was considering transmitted(not reflected) too much light. Therefore, it would not be possible to get as good a picture as the projector was capable of.
 

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Mmmmmm.....how about another projector meet in NC? ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks all for the inputs and suggestions. Unfortunately we did not do an AVIA calibration - just a few tweaks by eye. I came to find out that for the dealer, this was only his second time with the unit. Again, he was suppose to come at 5:30, but was delayed by his previous job and didn't arrive until about 6:45. We therefore only had about an hour and 15 minutes to setup and demo :( .


Mark - unfortunately he couldn't let me keep it longer - understandably there is a high demand to demo this to others at this time. lovingdvd - my frame of reference is (was) my Toshiba 56" RPTV and a 20 minute viewing of a Marantz 12S2 (calibrated and in the tricked out tiered seating HT demo room). The Marantz was definitely better at blacks, but I expected it to be given the quality of the demo room.


I know there were a number of suboptimal factors during last night's demo. What I'm concerned with is:

1- If fixing/optimizing everything like calibrating the unit, using a Firehawk screen, etc yields a 5% improvement, then it's not worth it. However, if it is exptected that the optimizations will yield a 10-15% or greater improvement, then it's worth it.

2- Rainbows. May be just my paranoia now that I can see them and know how to make them happen. I even showed my wife (who thought I was nuts at first trying describe what "might" be some side effects of DLP's) the Chocolat/silver tea pot scene and technique - and bam!! she can now see them. (As an aside, with the proper "training", all 3 of us can see rainbows with DLP PJ. The "theory" floating around that only 1% of the population are likely to be affected and thus rainbows are effectively a "myth" is something I don't subscribe to anymore. The probability of 3 separate individuals able to see rainbows with DLP will statistically show that the rainbow visibility is much greater than 1%. Without running the numbers I venture to say that with proper "training", over 50% of people would be able to generate visible RGB streaking with DLP!!! That said, I do think it should now be constrained/defined as what % of people are adversely affected by them? ). So my concern is that will my and my wife's sensitivty to rainbows grow worse over time? I saw one other member post he did become more aware over time and thus became an increasing dissatisfyer of his DLP PJ over time. (ie., don't make me wait and have to go with LCoS!)


Perplexed,

dagger
 

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Did you and your wife see rainbows when you didn't try "to make them happen" with this projector....ie normal viewing?
 

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I've never seen a rainbow on any DLP, so I assume I am not sensitive to it. I also go out of my way NOT to learn how to see them. If it don't see them naturally I don't want to teach myself how to have a poorer viewing experience :).


Before making a final decision I'll have my wife view the pj to make sure she is not rainbow sensitive. Frankly as long as my wife and I don't see rainbows without going looking for them, that's good enough for me. If friends come over and see rainbows, well that's their problem. :) In other words, I'm not going to let something that affects others discourange me from buying DLP technology when I feel it offers many advantages in other areas.


All this being said, it is interesting that a fair number of people seem to be saying they are seeing rainbows with the 7200. May have to do with its brighter output. I wonder if these same people would see rainbows on the Marantz S2.


daggerNC - do you recall seeing any raindows on the S2?
 

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The trick is not learning how to see rainbows. Rather it is how to find the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow so you can afford all this stuff. If you need advice on how to find the pot of gold, e-mail Alan, not me. :)
 

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lovingdvd,


As a former owner of a Marantz S1, I can tell you that neither I nor my wife have ever experienced the dreaded rainbow effect. I am, however, worried about the recent comments made by a few forum members regarding the increased existence of the rainbow effect as experienced by them with the InFocus 7200. I have seen it explained as an inherent problem with the HD2-chipped projectors because of higher lumens, higher contrast ratios, etc. Whatever the culprit may be, it still seems to be a very real issue.


Here's my problem:


I am on the hunt for a Marantz S2 to replace the S1 I sold and am interested, as you are, in knowing whether the same comments are being made by current S2 owners. Unfortunately, nobody in my area has one that I can demo so that I can rule this problem out in person before ultimately making my purchase.


In closing, if ANYONE has ANY HD2-chipped projector and is experiencing the dreaded rainbow effect more than on an HD1-chipped projector, please post your experiences for everyone's benefit. There are a few people that would like to hear from you.


Thanks!
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by vdelauz
...As a former owner of a Marantz S1, I can tell you that neither I nor my wife have ever experienced the dreaded rainbow effect. I am, however, worried about the recent comments made by a few forum members regarding the increased existence of the rainbow effect as experienced by them with the InFocus 7200. I have seen it explained as an inherent problem with the HD2-chipped projectors because of higher lumens, higher contrast ratios, etc. Whatever the culprit may be, it still seems to be a very real issue.
What about the Nec HT1000...that uses the older chip but boasts a 1:3000 contrast. Has there been an increase in rainbow sightings with that one?
 

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The NEC uses a dlp which also has the 12 degree tilt. I believe it is effectively a lower resolution HD2 so I would not expect the dlp technology to be resonsible for differences in rainbows between ht1000 and hd2s.
 

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DHP, you are correct.


It isn't the chip specifically, but the chip, in combination with other improvements, that have increased light output and contrast of specific projectors.


It is, the 12 degree mirrors, which are partially responsible for the increase in contrast, that may be the source of the issue.


Specifically, there is definately a correlation between colour separation (rainbow) appearance, and contrast. This is why on high contrast scenes, such as black/white text, you may, if sensitive, will see rainbows the most.


Now, if you increase the contrast of the projector, you will magnify this.


HD2 projectors, using the 12 degree mirrors, may compound this as it IS the purpose of these projectors to have the highest possilbe contrast for home theatre use.
 

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dagger,


Potentially one simple thing would explain your problem - room lighting. If your walls are light colored, light from behind the couch could easily make its way to the screen and change your 1400:1 CR to 400:1, possibly much less depending on the particulars.
 

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Dagger could you PM me on who set up your in house demo? I was not aware of any A/V stores carrying In-focus, let alone coming to your house to demo it. The only projectors around here that I could find where Yamaha, Runco, and Marantz.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Utopia - I sent you a PM.


Noah - the room lighting did make a difference. That's why I indicated turning the 40W lamp on the floor behind the couch off and on. The ceiling is flat white, the walls were repainted a medium sage green - not black, but much better than the original plantation white color, and the carpeting is your neutral light tan. Blacks definitely looked better, but still not quite as much as I was expecting. I wonder, what is the default lamp power setting? He didn't change that parameter so I wonder if the econo mode (or whatever it's called) was not the default setting if that would have made a more significant difference. WRT the Marantz 12S2, room lighting made a huge difference - even the owner said so. We opened the back door just a couple of feet and the blacks turned to dark grays - close the door and they looked black again (he was using a white screen, not sure if Stewart or Da-Lite).


vdelauz - in the approximately 20 minutes I spent in front of the Marantz 12S2, I didn't see any rainbows. I tried a few times of moving my eyes over the screen, but I wasn't sure of the best technique/screen scenes to see if I was capable/susceptible. However, now armed (or I should say cursed) with the technique and screen scenes to cause it to happen, if I get a chance to go back in there I'll check.


And lovingdvd/others - I agree with you. I didn't think I was sensitive to rainbows until I read enough posts here to devise a technique to check if I could see them. Now that I know I can see them if I try hard enough, it's causing me to be paranoid about DLP's in general. Feeding this mental illness is the hypothesis floating around that with single chip DLP's, occurrences of RGB flashes is directly proportional to increases in contrast ratio. And further generations of DLP are expected to achieve higher CR's. Like you say, I've read too much on this now. Plus, I'm afraid that I will subconsciously restrict my head motion while watching a DLP just because I know that is part of the method to invoke them.


I think I'll take a Valium and just watch a whole movie relaxed. No rainbows means DLP's are good enough for me.


dagger
 
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