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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hello! I'm looking to get a new 3D TV (upgrading from my 50" Samsung DLP) and had some questions about a couple of the plasmas currently available:


What is the potential for burn-in on the VT25 and c7000/c8000? This is my biggest concern with buying a plasma. The TV will be used for regular TV watching, blu-rays, and gaming on the 360 and PS3. I've heard the newer plasmas don't have as much problem with this, but how much of a concern is this, and is there any difference between these TVs?


I've heard that some of these sets make a "buzzing" noise when operated? Is this anything to be concerned about?


How good at handling motion are these plasmas? As I am a big sports and gaming fan, I want something that is good at fast motion. I've read that the plasmas do 600Hz, but I read somewhere else it was just 60 or 96, as compared to the LED 3D TVs at 240. I also read in another thread that somebody thought the Panasonic looked blurry when displaying fast motion.


If a firmware update is necessary, how do you get it and apply it? Does the TV need to be connected to the internet? Sorry, basic question, but I've never needed to do it before.


I like the idea of the 2D-3D upconverting on the Samsung--is it good enough to use or is it just a gimmick? If it's worth using, this might sway me to the Samsung over the Panasonic.


It seems that these are among the highest rated TVs for both 2D and 3D--is there much more crosstalk on the Samsung vs the Panasonic or are they similar? I thought I read that the Panasonic's advantages were in black levels rather than crosstalk, but wanted to make sure. I'm sure the TV will be in 2D more than 3D (at least for the forseeable future, unless the 2D-3D conversion on the Samsung is good), but I still want a good 3D picture.


It seems that plasma holds the edge over LED for 3D right now, but are there any major reasons I should consider an LED instead (besides a less reflective screen and less/no potential for burn-in)? I just want to make sure I do my research before I buy!


Sorry for the long post and multiple questions. Thanks in advance for any help, it's greatly appreciated!!!!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by supernova
Hello! I'm looking to get a new 3D TV (upgrading from my 50" Samsung DLP) and had some questions about a couple of the plasmas currently available:


What is the potential for burn-in on the VT25 and c7000/c8000? This is my biggest concern with buying a plasma. The TV will be used for regular TV watching, blu-rays, and gaming on the 360 and PS3. I've heard the newer plasmas don't have as much problem with this, but how much of a concern is this, and is there any difference between these TVs?

Burn-in is a one in a million type of thing. The image will retain more when you first buy the TV (kind of like a temporary burn-in called image retention), but as the phosphors age this will be less and less likely to happen. Image retention lasts typically for only a few seconds to a few minutes if left on a solid screen for long periods of time. Burn-in isn't impossible, but for what your doing, I wouldn't worry about it


I've heard that some of these sets make a "buzzing" noise when operated? Is this anything to be concerned about?

I owned a Samsung plasma, and it buzzed. Was it annoying, sure. It will vary though. Let's say 100 people buy the same Samsung plasma, but only a handful complain of hearing it. Samsungs are the morely like brand of plasma to do this, but it isn't impossible for any TV to emit a noise like it. Some have just had Samsung come out and fix it. Depending on what causes the buzzing, it may or may not be fixable by the manufacturer.


How good at handling motion are these plasmas? As I am a big sports and gaming fan, I want something that is good at fast motion. I've read that the plasmas do 600Hz, but I read somewhere else it was just 60 or 96, as compared to the LED 3D TVs at 240. I also read in another thread that somebody thought the Panasonic looked blurry when displaying fast motion.

All Plasmas refresh at 60Hz. Forget the 600Hz stuff. Some models (VT20/25 in particular) introduce a 72Hz or 96Hz mode. This is for Blu-ray movies which run at 24 frames a second i.e. 24Hz. So for a normal TV to convert this and show frames evenly, TV's have come out with modes that do a multiple of that, like 72Hz, 96Hz, 120Hz, or 240Hz meaning they will show each of the 24 frames evenly. In terms of motion resolution (basically will you be able to get a clear picture with motion) almost any plasma will have superior motion compared to LCDs or LEDs even with 120Hz or 240Hz.


If a firmware update is necessary, how do you get it and apply it? Does the TV need to be connected to the internet? Sorry, basic question, but I've never needed to do it before.

Firmware updates are not necessary, but internet connectable models add features or fix bugs. Those TVs will have an ethernet plug or you can buy their wireless adapter (Panasonic and Samsung makes there own for their TVs for about $80) and connect to TV wirelessly to download any optional updates.


I like the idea of the 2D-3D upconverting on the Samsung--is it good enough to use or is it just a gimmick? If it's worth using, this might sway me to the Samsung over the Panasonic.

2D to 3D is very hit or miss. Let's say you watch one regular 2D movie with it on and say it looks great, the next movie you watch looks terrible with it on. Panasonic came out with a GT25 series that also does 2D to 3D as well though but, most people rarely use the feature. To get a True 3D image and one that will impress your friends, stick with real 3D content to get a 3D picture.


It seems that these are among the highest rated TVs for both 2D and 3D--is there much more crosstalk on the Samsung vs the Panasonic or are they similar? I thought I read that the Panasonic's advantages were in black levels rather than crosstalk, but wanted to make sure. I'm sure the TV will be in 2D more than 3D (at least for the forseeable future, unless the 2D-3D conversion on the Samsung is good), but I still want a good 3D picture.

I found Samsungs 3D plasmas offered more crosstalk. Panasonic uses fast phosphors and other tech in the TV to limit crosstalk and reviews seem to point it out that the crosstalk to less or nonexistant on the Panasonic compared to other brands. Black levels are Panasonic's major draw vs. other plasma brands. Understand also, that content poorly encoded in 3D like Clash or the Titans 3D Blu-ray won't stack up to movies like Avatar 3D Blu-ray which was filmed with a 3D camera and seems to have almost no crosstalk. So it could be the movie poorly made by the studios that are causing it or the TV. Understand 3D in the home is still in its infancy so it may take a few years for studios to get it down perfect everytime. Some of the first blu-ray 2D movies that came out were also hit or miss for a better picture over the DVD versions of the same movie. Crosstalk should get minimized as more people learn how to eliminate it.


It seems that plasma holds the edge over LED for 3D right now, but are there any major reasons I should consider an LED instead (besides a less reflective screen and less/no potential for burn-in)? I just want to make sure I do my research before I buy!

LED based LCDs offer a brighter picture. They are more energy efficient as well. Beyond those two factors, Plasmas tend to have better everything else. Some big plasma benefits are faster motion, darker blacks (depending on the LED), better off angle viewing, cost, and color. LEDs tend to have a brighter picture. This will give you two major benefits. If you have a brighter room environment it will help. Also, because 3D glasses darken the image, you typically will have a brighter 3D image as well.


Sorry for the long post and multiple questions. Thanks in advance for any help, it's greatly appreciated!!!!
Please keep the questions coming. It's the only way we learn. Plus the next guy looking for a TV will want to know the same questions you ask.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by supernova
Hello! I'm looking to get a new 3D TV (upgrading from my 50" Samsung DLP) and had some questions about a couple of the plasmas currently available:


What is the potential for burn-in on the VT25 and c7000/c8000? This is my biggest concern with buying a plasma. The TV will be used for regular TV watching, blu-rays, and gaming on the 360 and PS3. I've heard the newer plasmas don't have as much problem with this, but how much of a concern is this, and is there any difference between these TVs?


I've heard that some of these sets make a "buzzing" noise when operated? Is this anything to be concerned about?


How good at handling motion are these plasmas? As I am a big sports and gaming fan, I want something that is good at fast motion. I've read that the plasmas do 600Hz, but I read somewhere else it was just 60 or 96, as compared to the LED 3D TVs at 240. I also read in another thread that somebody thought the Panasonic looked blurry when displaying fast motion.


If a firmware update is necessary, how do you get it and apply it? Does the TV need to be connected to the internet? Sorry, basic question, but I've never needed to do it before.


I like the idea of the 2D-3D upconverting on the Samsung--is it good enough to use or is it just a gimmick? If it's worth using, this might sway me to the Samsung over the Panasonic.


It seems that these are among the highest rated TVs for both 2D and 3D--is there much more crosstalk on the Samsung vs the Panasonic or are they similar? I thought I read that the Panasonic's advantages were in black levels rather than crosstalk, but wanted to make sure. I'm sure the TV will be in 2D more than 3D (at least for the forseeable future, unless the 2D-3D conversion on the Samsung is good), but I still want a good 3D picture.


It seems that plasma holds the edge over LED for 3D right now, but are there any major reasons I should consider an LED instead (besides a less reflective screen and less/no potential for burn-in)? I just want to make sure I do my research before I buy!


Sorry for the long post and multiple questions. Thanks in advance for any help, it's greatly appreciated!!!!
Hey Supernova,


You will undoubtedly get several firm responses recommending one or the other of these sets, but the reality is that they are both amazing 2d and 3d televisions. As someone who plays with both of these daily (as well as several other 3d tv's) I'll try to address a few of your concerns as best I can.


Regarding burn in....while it's still technically possible in most cases you have to actually work at it to permanently damage these sets in this way. Common sense rules the day here....for the first 50-100 hours try not leave a static image sit on them for hours on end and you should be good. Some people try to enhance this process with the generous use of particular test patterns for the first hundred hours or so. After the phosphors settle in a bit you should be good to go. However, if you do start to notice some image retention there are methods in the menu settings of both sets to try to even out the image. I have yet to really play with the one in the Panasonic but can attest that the scrolling pattern in the Samsung does indeed do as it claims.


I have yet to hear a significant buzzing from the Panny but some of the Samsung units do emit an audible buzz. It seems to be hit or miss as to whether you get one that buzzes or not. In most cases the buzz is undetectable from a reasonable distance at relatively normal volume levels, but I have witnessed one unit that made a god awful sound. Needless to say it was universally considered unacceptable and was immediately replaced with a new unit.


Motion handling on plasma displays are pretty spot on for most people, but you really need to see it for yourself to know what you find acceptable. Don't believe the marketing hype when it comes to 600Hz vs 240Hz....they are two totally different things and it's like comparing apples to oranges. Furthermore....as you have heard most plasmas are indeed 60Hz and the 600Hz sub field drive shennanigans are the marketing answer from plasma manufacturers to ensure that the tech is not viewed as inferior to LED or LCD by average consumers (or ignorant salespeople!) who don't have the means to know any better. Personally I don't like the effect you get from frame interpolation on LED but my wife really enjoys it so it truly does boil down to personal preference.


Firmware updates are pretty painless. Connect either television to the internet via the LAN port or wi-fi dongle and download away. Alternatively, you can download updates from the manufacturer website, load it onto a USB stick and connect that to the television. Shouldn't take more than a couple of minutes.


The 2D - 3D conversion on the Sammy is interesting, but I wouldn't use it as the make or break criteria for which one to purchase. My experience is that it can occasionally make things look good and is fun to play with but most people expect the dramatic effect of stuff flying out of the screen and you just don't get that with the built in conversion. Instead, when using it think of the display as a window, in which depth is added to the picture. Regardless, results for this seem to be very hit or miss depending on the content you are viewing.


There are some here who are going to roast me for this next paragraph, but here we go anyway......crosstalk between the two seems to be about equal...which is to say minimal for both of them. Yes, it can occasionally be visible with certain types of scenes but unless you are SUPER picky you will probably not find it objectionable. It is certainly no worse than what you will get on LED/LCD and in many instances is much less noticeable. The most common comment that I hear is that the glasses suck....not because of crosstalk but because of how flimsy they are and they both let in a ridiculous amount of ambient light from the sides. I have to agree with this line of thought and it goes for both of these sets.


I can't answer the question of which tech to go for as it varies for each person depending on your priorities. If you are the type who likes the brightest picture possible go for LED. If you prefer better blacks go for plasma. If you have a lot of ambient light in your room you're pretty much equally screwed either way, regardless of what common wisdom says about the merits of matte LED screens over glossy plasma. C'est la vie.


Ultimately, regardless of what the rest of us AVS junkies say, you owe it to yourself to get to a store and see both of them for yourself. Since you are the one who is a: forking out the cash, and b: going to watch the thing day in and day out you need to get the one YOU like the best, not the one that is judged the 'best' by all of us self professed video snobs.



Hope this helps even a teeny bit. Good luck with your purchase, I hope it's all you expect it to be!


Regards,

Jason
 

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Wow German, I saw your post just after I put up my reply and we must have been practically typing the same things at the same time. Such like minded individuals as us should be commiserating together over beers!
 

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Yep, was reading your responses. Pretty spot on with every answer. How's that for consistency on AVSforum



BTW, Come find me in October. Sam Adams Oktoberfest is one of the only beers that gets me out of the cave when its 20 degrees outside.


Also, you said you think the Samsung plasmas have about the same crosstalk issues as the Panasonic? I looked at store demos, but in my experience, the Panasonic was more consistent around no crosstalk, but could have been the content.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by germanplumber /forum/post/19633924


Yep, was reading your responses. Pretty spot on with every answer. How's that for consistency on AVSforum



BTW, Come find me in October. Sam Adams Oktoberfest is one of the only beers that gets me out of the cave when its 20 degrees outside.


Also, you said you think the Samsung plasmas have about the same crosstalk issues as the Panasonic? I looked at store demos, but in my experience, the Panasonic was more consistent around no crosstalk, but could have been the content.

Samsung came out with a recent firmware that improved 3D performance. I don't know if it's as good as the Panasonics, but 3D performance is definitely impressive on the Samsung TVs.


Samsung glasses seem to be hit or miss as well. Some seem to synch up better than others, but they do replace them if there are problems.
 

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Supernova,


Plasmas do not refresh as fast as LCDs, but they don't need to either. 240hz LCD came out out solve an issue with motion inherrent to LCDs. Plasmas are generally known to be better at handling motion.


Also, Panasonic does not have a real advantage in black levels. They rise (black levels will end up 3x higher than when you bought it), and they float depending on the scene.


Both the Panasonic and Samsung plasmas are great. I'd go with whatever is cheaper.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by germanplumber /forum/post/19633924


Also, you said you think the Samsung plasmas have about the same crosstalk issues as the Panasonic? I looked at store demos, but in my experience, the Panasonic was more consistent around no crosstalk, but could have been the content.

German and Nillaz have already posted excellent answers but if I may offer my two cents...


You really need to look at the same content on both sets to more accurately gauge whether one has more crosstalk than the other. Comparing different movies on different panels is very much apples and oranges. In my experience, how a movie was mastered plays a great part in how much crosstalk you see and in comparing my experiences with my 63" Samsung 8000 with professional reviews of the same movie on Panasonic equipment (Alice in Wonderland and Seven Wonders of the Solar System being the two most recent examples), whatever crosstalk is mentioned occurs at the same spot on both panels.


IR and burn-in on plasmas are not really issues anymore but you still have to exercise a little caution. I have about 300 hours on my panel and in my experience with my Samsung, I do notice some IR with certain games, mainly those that have bright and/or very sharp static HUDs. Super Stardust HD, Gran Tourismo 5 and Project Gotham Racing 3 for example all exhibit IR even after only a few minutes of gameplay. Games with no HUDs (like Tron Legacy) or soft/opaque HUDs (like Halo: Reach) are no problem at all. The IR has always faded away quickly (a few minutes at most) but if seeing even a trace of it freaks you out then you may need to think twice about plasma. I also find that once the panel has warmed up, after say 5 or 10 minutes, IR becomes even less of an issue. Hopefully as my panel continues to age IR will become less and less of an issue but it would be a lie to say it is 100% gone, even with this generation of plasma panel.


As for 2D>3D conversion, that was one of the reasons I went with the Samsung but in all honesty it should not factor at all into your buying decision. It is very much hit or miss and even when it works the effect is subtle at best and no matter what movie you play, you will go long stretches where you simply will not notice it. Given all the native 3D content now available, 2D>3D conversion is a curiosity at best; fun to experiment with if you have it but hardly a deal-breaker if you don't.


In terms of the quality of the 3D glasses, I have two of the non-rechargeable Samsung glasses and I find that they can briefly lose their sync when the on-screen image quickly goes from very dark to very bright (the tunnel of light when Sully first goes into his Avatar body is a good example of this and one where my Samsung glasses regularly lost sync); they re-sync automatically in a second or two but it can be distracting. I recently bought a pair of Xpand 103 universal 3D glasses and after a week of use they have never once lost their sync (including with the scene mentioned above); they also seem to be a little brighter than the Samsungs. Going forward, if I need to buy more glasses, I'll be going with the Xpands as they perform better and are cheaper as well.


The Sammy is typically less expensive and has in my opinion a superior suite of internet and media playing apps as well as supporting more obscure 3D modes (handy if you're planning on doing 3D with a PC). But in all fairness, while I'm very happy with my Samsung, I don't think you can go wrong with either panel.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for all the replies, all of your input is appreciated! I'm going to due some futher research in person today and I'm hoping it'll help me narrow down my choices...


Though I still think I want to check out Samsung's UN55c8000 LED... There's too many choices!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by germanplumber /forum/post/19633924


Yep, was reading your responses. Pretty spot on with every answer. How's that for consistency on AVSforum



BTW, Come find me in October. Sam Adams Oktoberfest is one of the only beers that gets me out of the cave when its 20 degrees outside.


Also, you said you think the Samsung plasmas have about the same crosstalk issues as the Panasonic? I looked at store demos, but in my experience, the Panasonic was more consistent around no crosstalk, but could have been the content.

I hear what you're saying about the weather....actually I don't think even the prospect of a delicious beer would entice me out of the mancave when it's this cold.



The only time I've really seen an objectionable amount of crosstalk on the Sammy was watching Monster's Vs. Aliens....there's a scene on a bridge that I thought looked pretty bad....but my understanding is this scene looks pretty bad on a variety of displays. I have seen crosstalk on every 3D display I've gotten a hold of (usually I notice it most in very high contrast scenes), including the Samsung and the Panny. My personal opinion is that these 2 sets have the least amount of crosstalk, with the nod going slightly to the Panasonic. OTOH I personally don't think it's pervasive enough on either of these two tv's that I find it to be a concern.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by supernova /forum/post/19641080


Thanks for all the replies, all of your input is appreciated! I'm going to due some futher research in person today and I'm hoping it'll help me narrow down my choices...


Though I still think I want to check out Samsung's UN55c8000 LED... There's too many choices!

Best of luck with the search. Considering your parameters I'm sure you'll find something suitable.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
One more question: how does the 3D emitter work with the glasses? Will you get any interference from other equipment such as wireless surround sound speakers or a wireless router? Thanks again for the help!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by supernova
One more question: how does the 3D emitter work with the glasses? Will you get any interference from other equipment such as wireless surround sound speakers or a wireless router? Thanks again for the help!
I don't think you'll have a problem with interference. I have wireless rear speakers for my surround, wireless controllers for my 360 and PS3, wireless remotes for the TV, BluRay player and surround sound system, wireless internet from the BluRay player and of course my wireless 3D glasses all going at the same time and I've not had any interference issues.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by supernova /forum/post/19648121


One more question: how does the 3D emitter work with the glasses? Will you get any interference from other equipment such as wireless surround sound speakers or a wireless router? Thanks again for the help!

You won't run into interference from your wireless devices with either of these televisions. Instead of using RF the glasses rely on infra red. There is an IR emitter that is embedded in the bezel of the tv that sends out a signal. There is an IR receiver in the bridge of the glasses that receives the signal and the two sync up.


Where you will instead run into issues is with very bright scenes in 3D. The brightness of the image sometimes has a tendency to overwhelm the IR receiver in the glasses and they will momentarily lose sync with the TV. I read a while back about an experiment to put a small piece of electrical tape over a portion of the ir receiver in the Sammy glasses to limit the light input but have yet to try it myself.
 

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My 2 cents. I owned the c8000 for a week and brought it back. The styling was nice but in comparison the vt25 is just as nice in person. The panny also has much more quality in the build. The stand is beefier and everything. The biggest thing for me though was the IR. The Sammy got it on everything, even after being broken in. The slightest thing, menu, screen saver, etc would burn in temporarily. And the screen wipe would have to run for 10-20 min for it to go away. This tv had all the settings turned down in cinema mode and again was broken in, yet the IR was instant. I never used the 2d-3d conversion. I saw it once and the coolness wore off quickly. 2d content is 2d for a reason and should stay that way. If it's not made for 3d seeing it converted is cool for about 3 minutes but then got old.


The vt25 was set up the same way (but thx mode) and also broken in. Not only does 3d look better (watched the same scene of monsters v aliens and the Sammy had lots of blur, crosstalk, and "fuzz" in the blacks. Same scene on the panny looked perfect). Also IR is much less than the c8000. I can play games for hours and the halo HUD will be just barely hazed in the screen. But the best part is that when I left a DVD menu up for 4 hrs bc I fell asleep (eek!), again slight haze which disappeared after 30 seconds of screen wipe.


Bottom line is that there are a lot of strong opinions. Most people stand by what they have without any real experience with the other tv which is fine. I love competition. But I do have that experience, and coming from someone who picked the Sammy first bc it looked nicer and had the 2d convert even though all of my friends and local "experts" told me to get the Panny just to end up swapping it and getting several big "I told u so's". Just get the panny.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mobilejunkie /forum/post/19655893


My 2 cents. I owned the c8000 for a week and brought it back. The styling was nice but in comparison the vt25 is just as nice in person. The panny also has much more quality in the build. The stand is beefier and everything. The biggest thing for me though was the IR. The Sammy got it on everything, even after being broken in. The slightest thing, menu, screen saver, etc would burn in temporarily. And the screen wipe would have to run for 10-20 min for it to go away. This tv had all the settings turned down in cinema mode and again was broken in, yet the IR was instant. I never used the 2d-3d conversion. I saw it once and the coolness wore off quickly. 2d content is 2d for a reason and should stay that way. If it's not made for 3d seeing it converted is cool for about 3 minutes but then got old.


The vt25 was set up the same way (but thx mode) and also broken in. Not only does 3d look better (watched the same scene of monsters v aliens and the Sammy had lots of blur, crosstalk, and "fuzz" in the blacks. Same scene on the panny looked perfect). Also IR is much less than the c8000. I can play games for hours and the halo HUD will be just barely hazed in the screen. But the best part is that when I left a DVD menu up for 4 hrs bc I fell asleep (eek!), again slight haze which disappeared after 30 seconds of screen wipe.


Bottom line is that there are a lot of strong opinions. Most people stand by what they have without any real experience with the other tv which is fine. I love competition. But I do have that experience, and coming from someone who picked the Sammy first bc it looked nicer and had the 2d convert even though all of my friends and local "experts" told me to get the Panny just to end up swapping it and getting several big "I told u so's". Just get the panny.

The IR on the C7000/C8000's do get better over time. I had mine running 24/7 the first week I had it with burn in DVD's and full screen content and my IR didn't seem to improve. It's now a month and I can now finally play games for hours and not worry about IR. It will be there but the scroll wipe feature removes it within 3 minutes now. When I first started gaming or had dvd player screens up for any long period of time I did have same problem as you it would take about 20-30 minutes to get it off the screen. I guess these samsungs need alot of use for IR to easily be removed. I never demo'd a VT25 so can't comment on the 3D quality differences.
 

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I would like to add a question: anyone know the true contrast ratios of the samsung 3d plasma series (c680, 7000 and 8000) as well as the vt25. From what I understand dynamic contrast ratio is a marketing gimmick and I want to determine how much of an actual quality difference exists in terms of perception from the lower end models (c680, 7000) and the upper end (8000, vt25). The c680 is currently priced atm in my price range but my purchase needs to satisfy me.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magowin /forum/post/19662244


The IR on the C7000/C8000's do get better over time. I had mine running 24/7 the first week I had it with burn in DVD's and full screen content and my IR didn't seem to improve. It's now a month and I can now finally play games for hours and not worry about IR. It will be there but the scroll wipe feature removes it within 3 minutes now. When I first started gaming or had dvd player screens up for any long period of time I did have same problem as you it would take about 20-30 minutes to get it off the screen. I guess these samsungs need alot of use for IR to easily be removed. I never demo'd a VT25 so can't comment on the 3D quality differences.

This has been my experience as well. I've owned a 63" Samsung 8000 plasma since July and IR has progressively become less and less of an issue as I put more hours on the panel. I still get IR with some games (the static HUDs in GT5 and Project Gotham Racing come to mind) but it always fades away and these days I don't even use the scroll wipe as just changing up the content seems to get the job done. One other thing I've observed is that it is also helpful to let the TV warm up for 5 or 10 minutes before diving into a game, especially if you haven't turned it on in a few days.
 
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