[dudae]

A lot of the manufacturers are hanging their hats on their up conversion technology because there is no 4k content available.
I’m a software engineer and what they are trying to do is fill in data that doesn’t exist. In the case of 4k, they trying to go from your cable company’s 720p signal to a 2160p picture. So in essence they are trying to color in two thirds of the pixels with colors.

So how do you determine what pixels get what colors? Remember a TV is in continuously processing a huge amount of frames per second. As you can imagine the software to do this would have to be extremely complex and would have to run at tremendous speeds to process each frame. The hardware on your TV would also have to be extremely fast to run just this program for every frame, let alone all the other processing it needs to do with today’s TV’s.

So somehow up converting is “accurately” calculating or guessing what colors go into each of these vacant pixels. Sorry, but I think this would be technological wonder because if it doesn't work properly it would make the picture worse. I have a feeling these up conversion systems don’t really do anything , or if they do it is extremely marginal.
I think this is just another sales gimmick because there is no 4k content so they are selling up conversion. Before you buy a 4K tv, ask the sales person to put in a standard cable feed into the set and look at the picture. You will be disappointed. I have yet to see a TV up convert anything worth a crap.

 

[howardstern]

A lot of the manufacturers are hanging their hats on their up conversion technology because there is no 4k content available.
I’m a software engineer and what they are trying to do is fill in data that doesn’t exist. In the case of 4k, they trying to go from your cable company’s 720p signal to a 2160p picture. So in essence they are trying to color in two thirds of the pixels with colors.

So how do you determine what pixels get what colors? Remember a TV is in continuously processing a huge amount of frames per second. As you can imagine the software to do this would have to be extremely complex and would have to run at tremendous speeds to process each frame. The hardware on your TV would also have to be extremely fast to run just this program for every frame, let alone all the other processing it needs to do with today’s TV’s.

So somehow up converting is “accurately” calculating or guessing what colors go into each of these vacant pixels. Sorry, but I think this would be technological wonder because if it doesn't work properly it would make the picture worse. I have a feeling these up conversion systems don’t really do anything , or if they do it is extremely marginal.
I think this is just another sales gimmick because there is no 4k content so they are selling up conversion. Before you buy a 4K tv, ask the sales person to put in a standard cable feed into the set and look at the picture. You will be disappointed. I have yet to see a TV up convert anything worth a crap.

Up-conversion technology or not, you will be disappointed with any and every LCD playing cable/sat. The picture is always soft, dull and lifeless. Plasma is the only way to go for watching regular TV. Directv on my plasma appears near Blu-Ray while even the HU9000 produced images exactly as I described earlier. It is an inherent problem with the technology itself and no algorithm is ever going to change it. The higher the resolution, the worse it gets.

 

[dudae]

I don't know why upconverting would be any better on a plasma for the same reason I explained above. Your still trying to build a picture without all data.

The problem with plasma is the consumer has spoken and it is a dead technology.

 

[howardstern]

I don't know why upconverting would be any better on a plasma for the same reason I explained above. Your still trying to build a picture without all data.

The problem with plasma is the consumer has spoken and it is a dead technology.

600 Hz? ...Contrast? Color? Blacks? Have you ever seen a plasma display Dish or DirecTV? The picture is crisp and vivid. There is actually "pop"..... They do a much better job of handling low quality signals and smoothing out /sharpening the image. Look at the endless features in place on LCD's to supposedly help "stop" flaws such as dithering, flicker, motion artifacting, noise, grain, etc. etc. .....It's got to be down to processing. My plasma has none of those options and none of those problems. All of these ultra-high end features and break-through advancements with LCD's that bring in super-high premiums are just the manufacturers trying to bring them closer to an image plasma produced standard. An el cheapo F4500 I own embarrassed my X850B, HU8550 and HU9000 which all looked terrible side by side with 720/1080 sources, especially with cable/satellite.

Plasma is alive and well in the world of enthusiasts. There are people holding on to 10 year old Kuros until OLED becomes practical. There are many here buying and trading used plasmas rather than spending a dime on LCD. It is dead technology in the retail market place but they are still out there and still highly sought after. My local HH Gregg had about 12-- F5300's they put out on the floor near the door and they were sold out in a week when I went to buy one. VT-ZT's and F8500's have tripled and quadrupled in price. This is because these LCDS' are only valuable when playing 4k content and since 99% of viewing is non-4k, people want the best image possible when viewing cable/satellite and Blu-Ray.

Are you sure it was the consumers who spoke or the manufacturers? There are informed consumers who know plasma is vastly superior. Panasonic did a terrible job of marketing, they had the best product available in any technology hands down and the general public would never know it. Them dropping out killed the technology off. Of course Samsung with 70% market share with LCD and LG pursuing OLED would drop out as well not having to compete with Panasonic anymore. My buddy bought a VT60 that blows away $7,000 LCD's for $1,900. Now Panasonic is releasing inferior LCD's for double and triple the price they charged for their plasma.

If Samsung could produce a 60" LCD with a picture similar to the $799 F5300 it would have to be FALD, at least a native 240hz panel, native 10,000 : 1 contrast, their best processors, an enhanced color engine..etc. The price would be astronomical for all the "cutting-edge-features" that are standard with plasma. This TV would sell for $8,000 rather than $799. The manufacturers made the decision for us, they went with the money rather than delivering the best product, not the consumers knowingly deciding to pay triple for an inferior product. Just imagine the image quality of an HDR, 4k Panasonic plasma. I don't think even OLED could surpass that picture quality. You're telling me consumers made the decision to not have the best product? Maybe it was the fact show-rooms stacked the floors with LCD's and only had 1 or 2 plasma's on display and salesmen tell the buyers plasmas are heavy, burn-in and use so much more energy. I have purposely posed as a novice and asked salesman which technology I should go with. You wouldn't believe the things I have heard to dissuade me from buying the plasma.

 

[GregLee]

Plasma is alive and well in the world of enthusiasts.

No doubt, alongside vinyl records and tube amps. Ho hum.

I watch mostly DirecTV currently on a plasma and a 4K lcd-led. They're nice in different ways. The plasma set has some IR and is a little blurry. The 4K has a viewing angle problem and some other issues, but it's not bad. I'm about to replace the plasma with an HDR 4K, because my plasma set can't do HDR. Sorry if you disapprove of the future, but it will come nonetheless.

 

[jcr159]

600 Hz? ...Contrast? Color? Blacks? Have you ever seen a plasma display Dish or DirecTV? The picture is crisp and vivid. There is actually "pop"..... They do a much better job of handling low quality signals and smoothing out /sharpening the image. Look at the endless features in place on LCD's to supposedly help "stop" flaws such as dithering, flicker, motion artifacting, noise, grain, etc. etc. .....It's got to be down to processing. My plasma has none of those options and none of those problems. All of these ultra-high end features and break-through advancements with LCD's that bring in super-high premiums are just the manufacturers trying to bring them closer to an image plasma produced standard. An el cheapo F4500 I own embarrassed my X850B, HU8550 and HU9000 which all looked terrible side by side with 720/1080 sources, especially with cable/satellite.

Plasma is alive and well in the world of enthusiasts. There are people holding on to 10 year old Kuros until OLED becomes practical. There are many here buying and trading used plasmas rather than spending a dime on LCD. It is dead technology in the retail market place but they are still out there and still highly sought after. My local HH Gregg had about 12-- F5300's they put out on the floor near the door and they were sold out in a week when I went to buy one. VT-ZT's and F8500's have tripled and quadrupled in price. This is because these LCDS' are only valuable when playing 4k content and since 99% of viewing is non-4k, people want the best image possible when viewing cable/satellite and Blu-Ray.

Are you sure it was the consumers who spoke or the manufacturers? There are informed consumers who know plasma is vastly superior. Panasonic did a terrible job of marketing, they had the best product available in any technology hands down and the general public would never know it. Them dropping out killed the technology off. Of course Samsung with 70% market share with LCD and LG pursuing OLED would drop out as well not having to compete with Panasonic anymore. My buddy bought a VT60 that blows away $7,000 LCD's for $1,900. Now Panasonic is releasing inferior LCD's for double and triple the price they charged for their plasma.

If Samsung could produce a 60" LCD with a picture similar to the $799 F5300 it would have to be FALD, at least a native 240hz panel, native 10,000 : 1 contrast, their best processors, an enhanced color engine..etc. The price would be astronomical for all the "cutting-edge-features" that are standard with plasma. This TV would sell for $8,000 rather than $799. The manufacturers made the decision for us, they went with the money rather than delivering the best product, not the consumers knowingly deciding to pay triple for an inferior product. Just imagine the image quality of an HDR, 4k Panasonic plasma. I don't think even OLED could surpass that picture quality. You're telling me consumers made the decision to not have the best product? Maybe it was the fact show-rooms stacked the floors with LCD's and only had 1 or 2 plasma's on display and salesmen tell the buyers plasmas are heavy, burn-in and use so much more energy. I have purposely posed as a novice and asked salesman which technology I should go with. You wouldn't believe the things I have heard to dissuade me from buying the plasma.

Well, sounds like I should be considering a plasma for the next set... I need a new set for the bedroom. Which of the current models is a good value buy? I don't need a reference quality set for the bedroom, but don't want a junk set either... A quick look at the bit manufacturers didn't show any with current models... I only want a new set with a manufacturer warranty, you know, in case it breaks...

Regardless of who spoke.... RIP Plasma :kiss:

 

[howardstern]

You guys have serious denial issues. I just purchased a $3,000 JU7500 and like with every other LCD my $380 F4500 puts it to shame with DirecTV. I am not a nostalgic hater who has a vendetta after they went out of production. I can just realize superiority when I see it. I think you guys have trouble admitting your quadruple/sextuple in price LCD's don't live up to even a budget plasma. Separate your eyes from your wallets.

There isn't an LCD on the market that will compare to a good plasma with cable/satellite. There isn't a $20,000 LCD displaying 4k that will outperform a great plasma playing 1080. Color, motion, contrast, black levels, shadow detail all in favor of the 1/10th the price plasma.

\thread

 

[jcr159]

You guys have serious denial issues. I just purchased a $3,000 JU7500 and like with every other LCD my $380 F4500 puts it to shame with DirecTV. I am not a nostalgic hater who has a vendetta after they went out of production. I can just realize superiority when I see it. I think you guys have trouble admitting your quadruple/sextuple in price LCD's don't live up to even a budget plasma. Separate your eyes from your wallets.

There isn't an LCD on the market that will compare to a good plasma with cable/satellite. There isn't a $20,000 LCD displaying 4k that will outperform a great plasma playing 1080. Color, motion, contrast, black levels, shadow detail all in favor of the 1/10th the price plasma.

\thread

lol, denile... it ain't just a river!

I think you are missing the point... No one is arguing that plasma isn't a great tech and picture...

We are all telling you that it doesn't matter cause you can't buy a new plasma set anymore... Case in point, the f4500 doesn't seem to be available new (refurb i think i found one...)


I'm actually serious to a degree though... are there new plasma sets available from any manufacturers? I thought everyone stopped as of this year with new plasma set production...

if you know of new plasma sets being produced, please post links, I'd genuinely be interested, as I (maybe mistakenly) thought production had ended...

On a related note, if your plasma died today, and couldn't be repaired, what would you replace it with (money no object)... criteria: best possible picture defined however you see fit to describe best possible picture... (best blacks, most accurate color, best color gamut, best contrast, best vivid mode lol, etc.)

 

[jcr159]

\thread

Oh, and could be taken by some as horribly arrogant to think you can "close" someone else's thread (about upconversion to 4k) with some partially on topic information telling everyone they just need to get plasmas...

None of which are 4k to my knowledge, and therefore none of which upconvert to 4k....

 

[howardstern]

Oh, and could be taken by some as horribly arrogant to think you can "close" someone else's thread (about upconversion to 4k) with some partially on topic information telling everyone they just need to get plasmas...

None of which are 4k to my knowledge, and therefore none of which upconvert to 4k....

Is a 1080 plasma displaying 720 or 480 upconverting? If you can answer this you will see how it's relevant. The thread is about up-converting technology, he focused on 4k but any response in regards to up-conversion is on topic.

I'm not going to do your research for you but yes, in my area you can still find plasma's. HH Gregg just sold 12 in a week if you read my post above.

He claimed plasma is no better than LCD for the same reasons, this is completely untrue as I have witnessed what a good/excellent plasma can do with a low-grade, compressed cable/satellite signal. So how is my alerting unknowing lurkers to the fact there is a way to see good upconverted content off-topic?

All this being said, after playing with settings and viewing more content the upscaling in the 7500 is the best I've seen to date from an LCD and neck and neck with my F4500 if not slightly better with some material. It still can not make certain programming or some channels like ESPN or BeIN Sports look like anything other than rubbish. These channels/programs on the plasma are very detailed. So even the best upscaling I have ever owned with an LCD still falls short of a budget plasma with a large pool of broadcast content.

 

[howardstern]

On a related note, if your plasma died today, and couldn't be repaired, what would you replace it with (money no object)... criteria: best possible picture defined however you see fit to describe best possible picture... (best blacks, most accurate color, best color gamut, best contrast, best vivid mode lol, etc.)

From what I'm hearing a JS9500 displaying HDR is beyond anything the greatest plasmas ever could produce. But then you're going to watch non HDR/4k material........OLED 4k would be my first choice with current tech. But my ultimate fantasy choice would be a 4k, HDR plasma from Pana..Sams...Pio... I'm hearing of motion issues, banding, etc. etc. with OLED just like LCD. If there's a flaw with my $380, 4500 it hasn't been distracting enough for me to ever notice. No technology is anywhere close to boasting that.

 

[Star56]

From what I'm hearing a JS9500 displaying HDR is beyond anything the greatest plasmas ever could produce. But then you're going to watch non HDR/4k material........OLED 4k would be my first choice with current tech. But my ultimate fantasy choice would be a 4k, HDR plasma from Pana..Sams...Pio... I'm hearing of motion issues, banding, looks etc. etc. with OLED just like LCD. If there's a flaw with my $380, 4500 it hasn't been distracting enough for me to ever notice. No technology is anywhere close to boasting that.

I own three Panny plasmas, an 80" lcd and two dlp projectors.

Your ranting about plasma's superiority borders on lunacy.

 

[*UFO*]

Howardstern, trying to convince people of the obvious is futile. As you said, plasma is king to enthusiasts. To all others, brighter is better.

 

[losservatore]

No doubt, alongside vinyl records and tube amps. Ho hum.

as a professional guitarist you can ask any guitarist what they prefer to use.

A: tube guitar amp
B: transistor semiconductor guitar amp

they have been trying to copy the sound of tube amps but it just doesn't sound and feel the same.

a great tech is a great tech no matter how old is.

is like comparing film vs video. video is trying to copy film ,but no video cam can hold the extreme high amount of resolution and information of a celluloid film.

interstellar was shoot in 70mm film for Imax theaters.

and I can keep going with more unique and great inventions like valve (condenser) and ribbon microphones

a 1920 invention that singers and musicians love.

do not underestimate old technology's

 

[*UFO*]

as a professional guitarist you can ask any guitarist what they prefer to use.

A: tube guitar amp
B: transistor semiconductor guitar amp

they have been trying to copy the sound of tube amps but it just doesn't sound and feel the same.

a great tech is a great tech no matter how old is.

is like comparing film vs video. video is trying to copy film ,but no video cam can hold the extreme high amount of resolution and information of a celluloid film.

interstellar was shoot in 70mm film for Imax theaters.

and I can keep going with more unique and great inventions like ribbon microphones.

a 1920 invention that singers and musicians love.

do not underestimate old technology's

This is unfortunately a very hard concept for most consumers to understand. Il leave it at that...

 

[GregLee]

as a professional guitarist you can ask any guitarist what they prefer to use.

If I ever become a professional guitarist, I'll ask.

A: tube guitar amp
B: transistor semiconductor guitar amp

they have been trying to copy the sound of tube amps but it just doesn't sound and feel the same.

Here's the difference. The goal of music and video reproduction is fidelity, while electric guitars are made to distort.

 

[Viper32]

I will just make a few comments: (I have owned both technologies F8500 Plasma for one)

This plasma against LCD stuff gets really old, if you are a Plasma owner then why even bother posting in the LCD section.

Unless you are just trying to stir up trouble as it seems to do.

It is a wonderful thing to be passionate about your equipment and to defend it within reason, but at the end of the day guys Plasma is almost gone.

And reasons are available as of why. So instead of crashing the LCD section why not post in the Plasma section and no trouble will be made.

Then the topics here can stay on point without trouble being made.

 

[smitbret]

Since howardstern hijacked this thread and a whole bunch of you took the bait, why don't we change the thread title to "howardstern says Plasma isn't dead.... Agree or Disagree?"

 

[ray0414]

Since howardstern hijacked this thread and a whole bunch of you took the bait, why don't we change the thread title to "howardstern says Plasma isn't dead.... Agree or Disagree?"

To be fair, he did say his new ju7500 led has the best upconversion he's seen on an lcd, and he's got quite a list of tvs he's tried out over the past couple years..

 

[howardstern]

Thank you Ray, *UFO* and Losservatore...

My intention was never to start a plasma/lcd war as I own both and each have their strengths. My JU7500 is excellent with upscaling. I am highly impressed but I also need to say it is the first time that I have been impressed with an LCD regarding cable/satellite. It took a WHOLE lot of searching and years to reach this point whereas even a Vizio plasma I owned back in 2005 was pristine. I mean from budget to flagship, they all have that LCD look with broadcast content. Golf on a good plasma looks like you are sitting on the course for example, there is no comparison regardless of emotion.....

This Palestine/Israel relation between Plasma/LCD has been going on for years in this forum. It's absurd and the mere mention of someone's least favorite tech is cause for U.N. sanctions.