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Discussion Starter #41
Panasonic exited the DVD-RAM business about two years ago.

Verbatim was the last hold out, I assumed because the Military, Dentists and Medical businesses still stored X-Rays, MRI and other older tech output on DVD-RAM.. basically bureaucratic inertia.

When Verbatim announced they were giving up on optical media entirely, and saw no future in it. That was the first thing in my mind.. something happened to the DVD-RAM contracts.

But then they went all in and said they were giving up on Blu-Ray too.. and I thought ut oh.. that leaves only a couple Indian companies making Blu-Ray

I don't know anything for sure. I'm nobody, but when a technology like 3.5 inch floppy disks completely went away, including their drives.. it kind of looked like this.. rapidly.

I would bank a couple good Blu-Ray or DVD drives for the PC in case.. for when.. the drives disappear and you need to "rip" the media back to hard drives. Or do that anyway and get a head start.
 

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So one drop of dish soap with distilled water 1:100 should it then. I use the same to clean my TV screen and then just water to remove the soap.
Well in my case it was more like a squirt of soap onto a wet dishcloth.
 

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But then they went all in and said they were giving up on Blu-Ray too.. and I thought ut oh.. that leaves only a couple Indian companies making Blu-Ray.
Grrr-reat. So basically, everyone from the military to doctors offices to engineers to accountants to artists to everyday tech users suddenly decided en masse that they have zero nada no interest whatsoever in any form of alternative non-magnetic backup media. Not even BD-R, which is cheap per GB, of reasonable capacity per disc, and has none of the variability/durability issues of DVD-R.

Because most people can't even think even one step ahead anymore, we're all now stuck endlessly migrating all our files from one HDD to another while praying they don't get corrupted in the process, and a random crash doesn't wipe out terabytes of data within seconds, requiring a massively tedious re-copy task to make another secondary backup. I don't know about the rest of you, but I haven't exactly been thrilled with the reliability of HDD storage connected via USB2 and USB3: a few too many needless time-consuming "connect-disconnect corruptions" have led me to cherish optical storage as a fallback option. I'm really really really disheartened that there is no longer even a military-corporate market demand big enough to at least support BD-R. Evidently the world doesn't seem to think it will survive another 50 years, so no longer cares about redundant different-tech data storage. Perhaps when their Amazon cloud account burps and loses everything, their plan is to just sip some kool aid and self-exit along with their lost data.
 

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Discussion Starter #44 (Edited)
Its pretty much all up to SONY now.. I don't think they offer any BD-R for sale anymore. But I think I saw MIT had demonstrated using a new type of BD-R disc that held hundreds of GB instead of 50 GB tops.

What little I've read seemed to suggest all drives could fire their laser to etch deeper layers and raise the capacity, it was the dye and the media that was holding back capacity. Originally they planned to scale BD-R capacity regularly like their data center AIT tape drives.. but plans change.

Since SONY as a company is doing so poorly in many markets.. and Panasonic is backing out of Blu-Ray recording.. somewhat quickly.. the blanks would naturally get more scarce.

Next shoe to drop.. like floppies.. will probably be a decline in quality.. except for the pricer M-disc.. which archivists and old school librarians use. The Market economics will not support "cheap" media anymore (or in the next few years).

A 4TB NAS Toshiba hard drive is probably the best you can get in 2019, average life 3-6 years, they are warrantying them for 5 years.. that's 800 DVDs in a box the size of one tape, or 1600 hours of DVD quality video. At the far end today is 16TB drives or 4 times that. Duplicating the drives can be an entirely passive thing to do, and version them, or move them to different locations offsite to maintain redundant backups. I dare say duplicating 800 DVDs would be a bit more manual labor. Finding storage space a bigger challenge.. offsite backups not practical.

You can dupe a drive in less than one day, practically without touching or monitoring it. Make two or periodic dupes if your paranoid.. as drives go on sale. a 4 TB is around $100.. so maybe once a year? And keep the previous years drive as an ancestor backup.

Hard drives are not immune to going the way of the floppy though.. new tech like SSDs and crystal deposition write once data backup could wipe hard drives off the face of the Earth. Crystal deposition today is rather like a non-moving BD-R.. its just not mainstream yet. Its a bit more like custom inkjet printing via laser.

But hard drives are what we've got today.. and the possibility that consumer DVD/Blu-ray drives may disappear in the next 5-10 years. Having a magnetic backup would seem a reasonable precaution.

I wonder about HDD lifetime sitting on a shelf versus "in use" or passively being exercised by being spun up and down by something like a raspberry pi "drive exerciser". One could easily be built by attaching a $5 Pi to its USB port to IDE or SATA adapter and simply programming it to cycle or periodically "test" the drive by reading and writing to it.. or performing various sector samplings and checksums. A Pi-Berry drive storage system could be built for this express purpose.

I mean that's crazy hack-ish way to do it.. but many home NAS systems like a used Drobo can basically do the same and text your iPhone when a drive goes toes up.
 

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Next shoe to drop.. like floppies.. will probably be a decline in quality.. except for the pricer M-disc.. which archivists and old school librarians use. The Market economics will not support "cheap" media anymore (or in the next few years).
It was my understanding (gleaned from Kelson, I think, could be false memory) that standard BD-R essenttially was M-disc technology (i.e., completely bypassed all the cruddy CMC "dye" nonsense we have in DVD-R and CD-R in favor of a stable archival substrate). In a notorious French accelerated aging test, the Panasonic branded BD-R blanks were highest rated, but this didn't mean as much as it did with DVD-R/CD-R: the innate archival design of BD-R was so superior nobody was really making any questionable blanks. Aside from the secondary "budget/economy/loss leader" dye-based BD-R offshoot, a terrible idea that should never have seen the light of day (a repeat of the DVD-R fiasco? why bother with such a false economy?).
 

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Discussion Starter #46 (Edited)
I am certainly no expert and have not researched this.. but as a consumer. I looked into M-Disc tech and it was using the same laser, but in a different way. I think it was "scoring" in the actual surface.

Wikipedia says this:

"While the exact properties of M-DISC are a trade secret, the patents protecting the M-DISC technology assert that the data layer is a "glassy carbon" and that the material is substantially inert to oxidation and has a melting point between 200 and 1000 °C.

M-DISC uses a single inorganic recording layer, which is substantially inert to oxygen, but requires a higher-powered laser.

M-DISC DVD does not require the reflective layer.

Thus, both the M-DISC and inorganic BD-R physically alter the recording layer, burning a permanent hole in the material.

Besides physical damage, failure of the reflective layer, followed by degradation of the data layer, are the primary failure modes of all optically recordable disks. "
Since M-DISC does not have a reflective layer to fail.. its only failure mode is degradation of the "glassy carbon" data layer.

Wikpedia on BD-R:

"Normal" BD-R discs" uses an inorganic layer, data layers are surrounded by a pair of dielectric layers. An adhesive spacer layer and sometimes a semi-reflective layer is used for multi-layer discs.

BD-R LTH is a write-once Blu-ray Disc format that features an organic dye recording layer.

In 2011, France's Ministry of Culture and Communication conducted a study on the suitability of data archival of LTH (low to high) discs compared to HTL (high to low) discs. The data they collected indicated that the overall quality of LTH discs is worse than HTL discs."
The implication is that only the single layer HTL BD-R are in the same general league as the M-DISC. BD-R that use multiple layers for higher capacity.. even the inorganic ones rely on transparency and polarization between the layers (reflectivity) and are subject to the same extra failure modes as DVD-R.

.. also I think I read DVD-R longevity is only in the hundreds of years (but theoretically dis-proven) while Millenniata M-DISC is in the thousands of years..

.. remember Nero? the CD/DVD burning software.. as in (Rome is Burning)?

.. that "organic" dyes fail generally due to their reflectivity layer getting compromised, (and) their dye layer "oxidizing".. makes them sound like they (are "always" dying) and in the process of "burning"..

.. how ironic is that?

Moving on to M-DISC.. which is more like acid free paper.. in that its not subject to oxidation.. seems a lot simpler.. but harder on the burner.

"I Believe" :grin:

That the debacle when first trying to make a cheaper HTL (inorganic dye) by inventing LTH (using the old DVD-R organic dye formula) led to a backlash that doomed further experiments with organic dyes in the BD-R arena.. everyone just went back to inorganic dyes and kept upping the layers to get to 50 GB and then "stopped".

.. that is until I heard about the higher capacity BD-R, Verbatim used to have a 4 layer 100 GB per BD-R through NewEgg, but you can still fit 40 of those monsters on a single 4TB hard drive.. and 4TB is getting so small these days its getting harder to buy.

The 100GB M-DISC are closer to sketching on carbon atoms a layer at a time.. but I don't know what they cost.
 

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That the debacle when first trying to make a cheaper HTL (inorganic dye) by inventing LTH (using the old DVD-R organic dye formula) led to a backlash that doomed further experiments with organic dyes in the BD-R arena.. everyone just went back to inorganic dyes and kept upping the layers to get to 50 GB and then "stopped".
Verbatim put out the LTH dye-based disks as a cheaper BD-R alternative because their standard BD-R HTL were so damn expensive. Taiyo-Yudens entry into BD-R blanks appeared to be exclusively LTH -- I never found a T-Y HTL BD-R. The T-Y LTH BD-R were as expensive as the Verbatim HTL disks. AFAIK, these were the only 2 guys putting out LTH disks. It didn't last long -- not because of technology but because of price.

Problem was that BD-R HTL with the inorganic data layer was so robust that the third-party makers didn't screw it up. From the beginning, since 2011, I've been using Optical Quantum BD-R. I've burned hundreds and can count on 1 hand the number of disks I've screwed up during a burn -- and disks burned in 2011 play just fine today. Optical Quantum BD-R started out at half the price of Verbatim BD-R HTL and were significantly cheaper than Verbatim LTH. While Verbatim prices held fast, OQ prices steadily declined to where I pay ~$0.40/disk these days. Eventually Verbatim HTL disks started to come down in price and at one point, HTL disks were selling for the same price as LTH. LTH pretty much crumbled, as it should have.

Like with DVD-R, double-layer BD-R are overly expensive and just not worth it given the huge capacity of BD-R to begin with. Some years ago I bought a 10-pack of OQ BD-R DL -- I've burned 2 or 3 and the rest have sat in the cabinet since then.
 

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I've been looking at some PC build articles & the cases that they use. The last few I saw do not have any external drive bays. The front panels have no openings & therefore no provisions for optical drives.

The last time I looked, HP & Dell desktop PCs still had optical drives. Maybe those will stay around for awhile so people can watch a DVD movie on their PC. And at the other end of the video spectrum Samsung stopped making Blu-ray players.

The world is changing. Everything is in the cloud or streaming.
 

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I have this
Metal Nitride Blu-ray discs

Verbatim sells a type of Metal Nitride-based Blu-ray discs. How well do they withstand light? petersmart (2014) ran a test:
Several years ago now I tested the longevity of writeable DVDs and found that DVDs exposed to daylight and sun for 3 months on a windowsill became completely corrupt.
Since 2011 I've been trying out a similar test on a Blu Ray disc.
On NOV 2011 I burnt a Blu Ray disc with episodes of a TV series and also included an MD5 hash test file.
This was a VERBATIM METAL NITRIDE DISK NOT A DYE BASED DISK since I assume such disks will still be subject to the same corruption as DVDs since they use the same type of dye. [...]
I have now finished the longevity test and it has PASSED with flying colours.
For the last 10 months it has been subjected to both heat (in the plastic container) and very bright sunlight for several hours each day.
The MD5 hash has declared that all the files on the Disc are uncorrupted and readable so there seems to be little point in continuing the test.
So a resounding win for Metal Nitride discs in the longevity stakes. https://briantomasik.com/archiving-data-on-blu-ray-discs/
 

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Verbatim put out the LTH dye-based disks as a cheaper BD-R alternative because their standard BD-R HTL were so damn expensive. Taiyo-Yudens entry into BD-R blanks appeared to be exclusively LTH -- I never found a T-Y HTL BD-R. The T-Y LTH BD-R were as expensive as the Verbatim HTL disks. AFAIK, these were the only 2 guys putting out LTH disks. It didn't last long -- not because of technology but because of price.

Problem was that BD-R HTL with the inorganic data layer was so robust that the third-party makers didn't screw it up. From the beginning, since 2011, I've been using Optical Quantum BD-R. I've burned hundreds and can count on 1 hand the number of disks I've screwed up during a burn -- and disks burned in 2011 play just fine today. Optical Quantum BD-R started out at half the price of Verbatim BD-R HTL and were significantly cheaper than Verbatim LTH. While Verbatim prices held fast, OQ prices steadily declined to where I pay ~$0.40/disk these days. Eventually Verbatim HTL disks started to come down in price and at one point, HTL disks were selling for the same price as LTH. LTH pretty much crumbled, as it should have.

Like with DVD-R, double-layer BD-R are overly expensive and just not worth it given the huge capacity of BD-R to begin with. Some years ago I bought a 10-pack of OQ BD-R DL -- I've burned 2 or 3 and the rest have sat in the cabinet since then.
Optical Quantum definitely changed since then because I was right there with you as I've burned thousands of them, but within the last couple of years, I've been getting coasters for the first time. I even gave them a couple of more chances only to have to return them to Amazon for a refund due to the quality decline from the same vendors that once put out the good stuff!

I'm even on some threads on the DVDFab forum about Blu-ray disc lifetimes... and by the way, those discs still work flawlessly after 8 years...

https://forum.dvdfab.cn/forum/software-support-english/dvdfab-blu-ray-copy/13116-bd-r-disc-lifetimes/page3
 

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I've been looking at some PC build articles & the cases that they use. The last few I saw do not have any external drive bays. The front panels have no openings & therefore no provisions for optical drives.

The last time I looked, HP & Dell desktop PCs still had optical drives. Maybe those will stay around for awhile so people can watch a DVD movie on their PC. And at the other end of the video spectrum Samsung stopped making Blu-ray players.

The world is changing. Everything is in the cloud or streaming.
This is the reason I'm keeping my current desktop. My desktop is an 8yr old Dell i7 PC. It has two external 5.25" drive bays that I populated with BD burners. I would love to get a new high-end PC but all the ones I've looked at had provision for only a single half-height (or thinner) optical drive. I would not be able to install a full size BD burner. I'm not thrilled with the thought of using external USB optical drives and don't have the energy any more to build a new tower. So I filled out my 8yr old i7 with all the RAM it would take and swapped out the C: dive for an SSD. To my surprise, it runs Win-10 like a bat out of hell -- I see no reason to replace it until the hardware takes a total dump.
 

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Discussion Starter #52 (Edited)
So from that link, Optical Quantum BD-R "regular" is HTL and Optical Quantum BD-R "value" is LTH.. really?

In this day and age they have gone back to offering LTH (organic dye) and people are buying them?

I'm not as sure about BD-R Dual or Quad layer.. it doesn't seem to be organic dye based, but since it does depend on transparency and reflectivity through the layers.. that seems like another potential path to failure.

I'm also not surprised that "data" stored on BD-R survives better than "video". Since data can often be reconstructed on the fly, or some file systems have enough error correction information to compensate (in the short run).. that doesn't mean the corruption wouldn't progress at the same rate as DVD-R (organic dyes are just "bad news").. just that the data format has a reserve to overcome a bad read.. where video does not.. gone is gone for video. But this still assuming we're talking BD-R LTH with the organic dye. None of this has shown up with HTL (Optical Quantum BD-R "regular").. that remains "reportedly" immune to corruption after everyone's testing.

HTL is just maintaining its price "premium" and isn't falling as fast as..

LTH.. really?.. its still being made?.. :eeksurprise:
 

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Optical Quantum definitely changed since then because I was right there with you as I've burned thousands of them, but within the last couple of years, I've been getting coasters for the first time. I even gave them a couple of more chances only to have to return them to Amazon for a refund due to the quality decline from the same vendors that once put out the good stuff!

I'm even on some threads on the DVDFab forum about Blu-ray disc lifetimes... and by the way, those discs still work flawlessly after 8 years...

https://forum.dvdfab.cn/forum/software-support-english/dvdfab-blu-ray-copy/13116-bd-r-disc-lifetimes/page3
Not something I'm happy to hear. I haven't bought any OQ BD-R since 2016. Amazon had a sale going on Optical Quantum 6X Logo Tops for $15/50-spindle. I bought like a mad fool and stocked up. I still have 5 spindles in the cabinet and the spindle I'm working on now so I'm good for a while. I don't burn everything, just the stuff I really want to keep a backup copy of permanently. My media server capacity is currently 25TB -- I'm protected against 2 drives simultaneously failing so I don't feel the need to burn a backup of everything on the server.
 
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