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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'm trying to design a system for a restaurant / sports bar I might purchase and kind of hit a road block. (looking at startup capital needs)


I've been over several options but here is what I'm doing (estimated price includes sat boxes and baluns etc.):


30 HDTVs

Either minimum of 10 Satellite boxes or one for each TV

If I go with one per TV, I need to figure out how to control all the boxes which will be located in a central closet. This route will also kill the need for a switch. ($5600)


I was looking at the Avatrix units but it's only 6-source. Could I use one zone from each and wire it to the other unit to enable 10 sources? I then could use the expanders to reach the rest of the TVs. ($14000)


Or, using the Xantech c88HDs daisy chained together to get the 30 zones (4 units). Would 4 units together be still 8 source or do the source inputs from the other units become available for all? ($9400)


Audio will be in 5 zones with varying amounts of speakers but I was going to use a Xantech zpr6810 or ZonePro 1261 fed to a crown CTS8200.


I would love to have touchscreen or remote control options from any zone so I have to keep that in mind. I'm just getting my feet wet in commercial audio. Anyway, I'm going round and round in my head and getting dizzy so any input will help at this point.


Thanks in advance,

Brett
 

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well damn, that's a lot of displays
 

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This is a huge job. Maybe best for a pro.


In my search for a smaller system, I did see a couple large stackable switches. Is everything close enough to run component cables or will you be running everything using cat5e/cat6? If it's anything like sports bars I've been to, lots of the televisions are fairly close together. Not sure what the component length limit is, but there's these:
http://www.hdtvsupply.com/16x16-av-matrix-switch.html

Stacks to 16x32. Pronto remote compatible.


Here's a cat5e to component matrix:
http://www.hdtvsupply.com/component-...t5-matrix.html

You would need baluns, probably another 5k for those. Looks like seperate audio switcher would be required. Again, huge job, I have no idea how one would set this up, but just to give you ideas. I have no experience with this place or their switches.
 

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you should invest in a matrix switcher to do this chaining da's together will cause problems. Autopatch and Extron are good choices.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by brettvdi /forum/post/16852015


Or, using the Xantech c88HDs daisy chained together to get the 30 zones (4 units). Would 4 units together be still 8 source or do the source inputs from the other units become available for all? ($9400)

When you daisy chain units together, it does not increase the number of zones. So you would have 32 zone, 8 source system with the Xantech.


It also appears that both the Cat5e and component outputs are active at the same time with the Xantech HD88CC5 unit. So you could use just two of the units to power your 30 TVs, but you would have pairs of TVs that would have to show the same source. So TV 1 and TV 17 would always show the same source, TV 2 and TV 18 the same, etc. That may not be good enough and you might need extra units to give you 30 discrete choices, but it's a possibility at least.
 

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I've deleted the original HDMI over IP suggestion. Updated drawing and prices for a 10x30 HDMI over IP matrix implementation are later in the thread. The original implementation guestimate was much more expensive than necessary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Thanks for all the replies. I don't think I would go the hdmi route because of the expense.


What I'm leaning towards is having one satellite box for each display in the A/V closet. Then I would use the component Cat5 baluns to deliver the signals to the TVs. I just don't how to set up control via IR in this setup. Any input as to how this would work? IR router of some sort I assume.


A 10 channel matrix seemed like an easier route and less equipment in the closet but I definitely would need the displays discrete. That's why I was wondering if you could use a second xantech unit as a source and that would give me the 10+ sources.

Quote:
you should invest in a matrix switcher to do this chaining da's together will cause problems. Autopatch and Extron are good choices.

I'm not too familiar with these guys but will give them a look. I guess I need to pick a route and run with it.


Thanks again, I'm looking forward to more discussion.
 

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Not sure where you're located, but if this is going to be a sports bar, then your only choice is DirecTV (NFL Sunday ticket). Their remotes will do RF.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by justtaint /forum/post/16863455


Not sure where you're located, but if this is going to be a sports bar, then your only choice is DirecTV (NFL Sunday ticket). Their remotes will do RF.

DirecTV is definitely who we are going with
Thanks for that, I did not know the remote do RF so that would make things a whole lot easier. Can you change the signals so all the boxes don't all react to a button push?
 

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DirecTV RF remotes in a commercial setup will be a headache. Do yourself a favor and get a pro. It will save you both time and money.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg C /forum/post/16869409


DirecTV RF remotes in a commercial setup will be a headache. Do yourself a favor and get a pro. It will save you both time and money.

I will likely get a few quotes for this job when the time comes but I like to understand all this stuff myself. I wouldn't be using the DirecTV remotes but a couple of harmony remotes with RF. Those also come with the RF receiver/extender. That and the use of keypads in each zone should make it fairly simple to operate.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I know the harmony remotes can only control up to 15 devices so with that option I would have only 10-12 boxes with the extra slots open for the audio devices. The remotes would be used by management only so I hope they would last longer than that.
If there's a better product for that use, I'm all ears.
 

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I just designed a system for a client and used an Autopatch AVS-MD-1232-347, it has 12 inputs and 32 outputs via component bnc connections and it also has a audio matrix switch. This is probably the best way to go as you can control audio and video independently and autopatch offers a easy to manage front lcd display so you can assign source to output, but also gives you the flexibility to control it via a web browser or rs-232 for ie. crestron control. As far as ir control to tv's, you will have a hell of a time trying to control these with rf or ir if you are planning on universal remote type of control for these many tv's. To be honest you are almost better off manually going around and turning the tv's on and off. I would suggest a dedicated control system, you may spend more up front but control if programmed correctly will not fail. Also a word of advice, make sure that all the tv's you purchase are either commercial grade or have serial ports for control. This will definitely assist in controlling this many tv's.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by rgiron /forum/post/16884555


I just designed a system for a client and used an Autopatch AVS-MD-1232-347, it has 12 inputs and 32 outputs via component bnc connections and it also has a audio matrix switch. This is probably the best way to go as you can control audio and video independently and autopatch offers a easy to manage front lcd display so you can assign source to output, but also gives you the flexibility to control it via a web browser or rs-232 for ie. crestron control. As far as ir control to tv's, you will have a hell of a time trying to control these with rf or ir if you are planning on universal remote type of control for these many tv's. To be honest you are almost better off manually going around and turning the tv's on and off. I would suggest a dedicated control system, you may spend more up front but control if programmed correctly will not fail. Also a word of advice, make sure that all the tv's you purchase are either commercial grade or have serial ports for control. This will definitely assist in controlling this many tv's.

Thanks, this is good information. I'll see if I can find an Autopatch dealer in the area.
Quote:
Can't wait to see and hear the final result. I do this stuff for a living. I have yet to see a penny saved up from not cost 2 to 5 in the end, in situations like this.


I'm kicking back and being entertained by the DIY answers.

I'm glad I can provide entertainment for you. I'm obviously here for advice so put your 2 cents in by all means. As I've stated, I'll be getting some profressional quotes but for now I have no idea what to stay away from or go towards. Figuring our this system helps me to understand what goes in to the project and I can better explain to someone what I need / want and know when I'm getting BS'd.


The first people I've spoken with designed a system using several Niles receivers and I knew this wasn't feasible by any means. That's when I decided to do my own research on the matter. So sit back and enjoy but I'm just trying to figure out the best solution for this whether it be a "DIY" solution or getting professional help. From where I started I wouldn't have known a good professional solution from some jack leg rip off.


This has to be done the right the first time. I'm too used to restaurants with short sighted solutions.
 

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Brett,


I've not seen a scope or needs assessment. Everybody is focused on product and back end equipment/ front end equipment at the moment. But I'd take a step back and forget about that for a little bit. Play the part of a dumb/non-techno restaurant manager and think about what you want and how it needs to work efficiently during business hours to fit in with your desired restaurant experience presented to the customer.


I always look at systems in bars and restaurants with an anthropological eye. Just finishing a restaurant up myself. Budgets usually get tight for audio/video unless it's a real sports bar. I see a lot to be desired usually, but sports bars usually get done up a lot better.


We know you want 32 TV's.


Do you want any source to be able to play on any TV? This will add cost and complexity. I'm sure you'll have some displays in common areas that can share the same source, maybe they can run off a DA. Maybe you can make the bar TV's full matrix but group common TV's together to save cost. Just an idea.


How will it be controlled? Will the manager be the only person controlling or will bartenders be able to change TV's/channels at client's requests? I'd be concerned about a bunch of RF remotes from the end user standpoint: they get lost, misplaced, bar fluids on them, etc. They'll be all over the bar area. It might be better to have the same touchpanel UI at a few POS locations so anybody has access to it. A floorplan/map graphic showing displays may also be desirable: you want staff to be able to address changes or customer requests as efficiently as possible.


Any good systems contractor should run you through these questions first before they start throwing equipment quotes together. Take pause and think about your needs and how it works for the users and customers then get back to the black boxes and gizmos.


You've already figured out that a bunch of stacked Niles receivers didn't seem right so you're on the right track.
 

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My company Archer Systems is a System Integrator for the federal government. I now the benefits of using highly talented specialists. In my opinion, most AVS members who are CIs tend to be much more talented than the average CIs, they are much more in tune with product selection and overall system design.


That being said, I have had many local CIs come to my home to give ROM pricing on a large whole house AV solution. Their price quotes were so astronomically high that I decided to research on my own to find robust alternatives.


I would definitely go with an all component solution. From my research, the only *reliable* hdmi switch for your needs is the Digital Media matrix switch from Crestron which is probably roughly in the 20k - 50k (wild ballpark price range). HDMI is notorious for having problems over long cable runs and negotiating handshake over HDMI is complex and problematic.


The Autopatch AVS-MD-1232-347 is a good solution and it has a lot of features. It is in the 20k price range though. It probably has better features than what I am recommending, which is a CMX1616V from Video Storm.

http://www.video-storm.com/proddetail.asp?prod=CMX1616V


I recently discovered this product after many nights of no sleep searching for a solution for my residence. It costs $2k. It is expandable up to 32 relatively easily (check out the product comparison page on the Video Storm website and you will see the expansion module). It is also controllable via IR or RS232.


THis product is perfect for what I am doing. In addition to the video zones, I will also have 14 audio zones, and 5 of them will be Surround Sound !!


Well, I think I am too excited about this product as you can see
 
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