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Add a second small sub or buy one decent one?

3K views 43 replies 16 participants last post by  captainkidd 
#1 ·
I have a big room that has been converted into a theater (9,600 cu/ft.) I am using a set of Klipsch WF35 towers with matching center and surrounds and a Denon AVR 590 receiver. I already had an Energy 8" 200 Watt powered sub so I installed that as well.


The room is a big concrete box so taming the acoustics took some work but it is coming around. I had a really good HT guy come by and take a look at the set up to see if he could give me any advice and among other things he said I would need much more Subwoofer if I wanted to get the best from the setup.


So, my question is, do I add a second Energy sub like the one I have which can be purchased at Costco for $100 or should I just get a completely different sub? I really don't want to spend more than about $300 and I am wondering if there is a $300 price range sub that would give better performance than a pair of Energy ESW-8HGs'?


We use the theater primarily for watching movies and sports and listen to some music while playing pool ect. but nothing major as far as music listening goes.


(The other option would be to bite yet another bullet and spend more $$$ and get a really good sub but this theater project has gotten a bit more expensive than originally intended!)
 
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#4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18145431


. . . a theater (9,600 cu/ft.) . . . other option would be to bite yet another bullet and spend more $$$ and get a really good sub . . .

Bite the bullet and get the "really good sub" (or two) even if you have to wait to sneak the cash out of the wife's checkbook
.


Just for movies alone you will greatly improve the experience!


XEagleDriver
 
#6 ·
You might start by examining you priorities. Are you after a sports bar atmosphere where television and music are just a background distraction or are you truly after a THEATER experience while watching movies?


If it is the latter then prepare to have your budget blown rudely off course! There isn't any way 8", $100 speakers are going to come even REMOTELY close to providing a theater-like atmosphere. Prepare yourself for the reality that you are going to be spending closer to $1,000 to get that "feeling".


A pair of eD A2-300 subs (12") will run $700 delivered and should be considered a bare MINIMUM. You could start there and see how you like it, but if it still doesn't meet your notion of a theater experience, then you are down $700 and still looking for bigger and better subs to fill your room.


Do your homework on sites like this, then give your best shot!


Bill C
 
#7 ·
I am definitely going for a home theater effect, I have a 125" screen 1080P projector, two rows of theater seating with a riser and a pretty nice set of Klipsch speakers, the WF 35s with matching center and surrounds.


It has all sort of snowballed but it has been fun! I originally intended to use my cheap HTIB speakers but you know how that goes. It seems like I get pretty decent base already with my one sub but I guess I am just naive to what a real 'Home Theater' can sound like. I had no idea going in that a decent sub would be so expensive!
 
#8 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18147897


What would you do in my situation?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18148141


what dollar amount can get me what I need to do a good job? Any suggestions for actual subs?
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18148334


I am definitely going for a home theater effect, I have a 125" screen 1080P projector, two rows of theater seating with a riser and a pretty nice set of Klipsch speakers, the WF 35s with matching center and surrounds.


It has all sort of snowballed but it has been fun! I originally intended to use my cheap HTIB speakers but you know how that goes. It seems like I get pretty decent base already with my one sub but I guess I am just naive to what a real 'Home Theater' can sound like. I had no idea going in that a decent sub would be so expensive!

Did you look at the subs on the Hsu website I gave you that correspond with the different room sizes?
 
#12 ·
Still depends on what your priorities are. "HT EFFECT" isn't quite enough info to go on. Are you looking for more clean output? More headroom? Lower extension? Flatter response? More even response over more seats?

Adding identical subs: If they're co-located: you can expect several dB increase in headroom for each doubling of the number of subs (i.e. from 1 to 2: maybe 3dB up, from 2-4, maybe 3dB up, from 1 to 4, maybe 6dB up)... this may allow them to player cleaner... this will NOT give you more extension into the down-lows... and will do very little to smooth out FR or response over different seats...

Adding identical subs: if they're not colocated: you'll get much less gain in headroom, but you will smooth out FR and response over different seats... you will not get more extension down low...

Adding a different sub: the output/headroom, when properly calibrated, of the entire system will be limited by the less capable sub, and it's difficult to properly calibrate the combination. how hard are you willing to work?

replacing with a better sub: you can get more output/headroom, better low end extension, you may get more flatness (or less), but you won't get any benefit for consistency across seats...
 
#13 ·
I dont think you are getting the concept. The energy sub you have only goes down to 33hz. The Hsu VTF3 MK3 goes down to 18hz. You are missing a lot of the effect of the movie/ music. I have 2 VTF3's in a room about a 1/4 the size of your. Adding more of those energy subs may give you more noise but not more bass. The BIC America F12 might be a good option. I have never heard one but people seem to like them.
 
#14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18152496


What about buying like three more of these same Energy subs;

http://www.energy-speakers.com/na-en...sw-8-overview/


and just using 4 of them? Is that even possible? Would it give me better sound than one $300 sub?


I am not going to spend over $1,000 for a sub, I just can't do it!

So, you have a 9600 cu/ft. dedicated theater room with a 125" screen, a projector, 2 rows of theater seating....and you can't justify even one $1000 sub? But you can justify (4) $150 PC gaming subs? Not to sugar coat anything but, if you can't justify spending a few hundred extra at this point to get the job done right, I would just press forward without any sub until I could save up enough money to get a real sub. In the end, it will cost less and be more satisfying.
 
#15 ·
I apologize for my ignorance, I literally know nothing about sub woofers, hertz, ect. I didn't get the impression from the product description and reviews on the Energy sub that it was made for PC gaming?

I never even knew that $2,000+ sub woofers existed, I assumed for a few hundred dollars you could get all the sub you would ever want. Obviously I was mistaken which is why I am asking here.

If adding additional Energy ESW 8s is not going to help and I decide to up the budget to around $1,000 for sub/components are there any suggestions which way I might go?

What do you gain by adding these higher dollar subs to a home theater system? My goal is not to destroy eardrums or wake the dead, I just want to create a great movie viewing environment that has some impact and clarity.
 
#16 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18152855


I apologize for my ignorance, I literally know nothing about sub woofers, hertz, ect. I didn't get the impression from the product description and reviews on the Energy sub that it was made for PC gaming?

I never even knew that $2,000+ sub woofers existed, I assumed for a few hundred dollars you could get all the sub you would ever want. Obviously I was mistaken which is why I am asking here.

If adding additional Energy ESW 8s is not going to help and I decide to up the budget to around $1,000 for sub/components are there any suggestions which way I might go?

What do you gain by adding these higher dollar subs to a home theater system? My goal is not to destroy eardrums or wake the dead, I just want to create a great movie viewing environment that has some impact and clarity.

No worries... This is all probably hard to digest at first. Having a capable subwoofer greatly enhances the home theater experience. It's not about destroying ear drums or waking dead. For me, it's about being there in the moment.


For a 9600 cu/ft room, $1000 is probably the bare minimum. But that's just me.
 
#17 ·
A local HT guy who seems to know his stuff is recommending that I go with a Velodyne SC 1250 Amp and a SC-15" passive sub. He said two SC-15s would be much better if I can stomach the cost. His opinion is that for the money this would be the best option for my large room. Does this sound like a good option?

Obviously at around $1,300 for the single sub setup and $1,900 for two it is WAAAYYY more than I intended to spend for bass. Are there other options below that price point that might be just as good?
 
#18 ·
Generally, ID subs will be a better bang for the buck... typically people look at Hsu, SVS, Epik, Rythmik...

Even better bang for the buck, if you're handy, would be DIY, there are sections where people can help you with advice on that...

The local HT guy is right about one thing, though... more subs are usually better than one... depending on your goals.
 
#19 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18153146


A local HT guy who seems to know his stuff is recommending that I go with a Velodyne SC 1250 Amp and a SC-15" passive sub. He said two SC-15s would be much better if I can stomach the cost. His opinion is that for the money this would be the best option for my large room. Does this sound like a good option?

Obviously at around $1,300 for the single sub setup and $1,900 for two it is WAAAYYY more than I intended to spend for bass. Are there other options below that price point that might be just as good?

Capt'n,

Don't panic!
There is no need to buy multiple subs right now, you can build to that kind of system over several years if need be.


However well intentioned the local guys suggestion might be
, there are many levels between that WAAAYYY more expensive solution and what you now have.


I think what eveyone is trying to tell you is to buy a quality sub now. Given the size of your room, you probably will find "the need" for more quality subs down the road.


This does not diminish the immediate improvement you will experience by swapping the low performance 33 Hz limited "wish-I-was" a sub for one of the several good sub suggestions already provided in this thread.


The theater experience you asked about is exactly like what you hear/feel at a good action movie at your local theater!
Go see a flick, if it has been awhile, then compare to what you hear/feel at home now.


I also was "sticker shocked" when first exploring subs and their prices. I have no regrets about buying a good one (an SVS) a couple years ago, and even have my eye on getting a second one to help smooth out the FR across my (much smaller) theater room.


XEagleDriver
 
#20 ·
captainkidd,


Lets ask this, Where are you located?


There will be someone here on the forum that lives near by and are always willing to show off their systems. I have a family room (open to the downstairs with over 10,000 Cubic feet) where my system is, and I have four subwoofers in that room in order to not watch a movie but to experience the movie. Around $4,000 dollars worth. I did not buy that all at once. I spread that over a ten year period. So get a quality sub right now, re-watch your movies. Then 2-3 years down the road get another one and re-watch those same movies again. That whats makes this hobby fun No?


BTW when multiple subs are intergrated properly in a room it cause no damage to your hearing.
 
#21 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18152496


What about buying like three more of these same Energy subs;

http://www.energy-speakers.com/na-en...sw-8-overview/


and just using 4 of them? Is that even possible? Would it give me better sound than one $300 sub?


I am not going to spend over $1,000 for a sub, I just can't do it!
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18152855


I apologize for my ignorance, I literally know nothing about sub woofers, hertz, ect. I didn't get the impression from the product description and reviews on the Energy sub that it was made for PC gaming?

I never even knew that $2,000+ sub woofers existed, I assumed for a few hundred dollars you could get all the sub you would ever want. Obviously I was mistaken which is why I am asking here.

If adding additional Energy ESW 8s is not going to help and I decide to up the budget to around $1,000 for sub/components are there any suggestions which way I might go?

What do you gain by adding these higher dollar subs to a home theater system? My goal is not to destroy eardrums or wake the dead, I just want to create a great movie viewing environment that has some impact and clarity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by captainkidd /forum/post/18153146


A local HT guy who seems to know his stuff is recommending that I go with a Velodyne SC 1250 Amp and a SC-15" passive sub. He said two SC-15s would be much better if I can stomach the cost. His opinion is that for the money this would be the best option for my large room. Does this sound like a good option?

Obviously at around $1,300 for the single sub setup and $1,900 for two it is WAAAYYY more than I intended to spend for bass. Are there other options below that price point that might be just as good?

The fact is, with what you have invested already in your home theater, you need to use a sub that is capable of filling that space. I don't own stock in the company but I am very happy and impressed with the sound quality and output capability of my Hsu VTF-2 Mk3. A single Hsu ULS-15 is on sale now for $1200 in walnut, rosenut or maple finishes. Two VTF-3 Mk 3s can be had for just over $1200 in satin black (really elegant looking). Either choice would be an excellent compliment to your HT.
 
#23 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten /forum/post/18155563


Subwoofer integration does not and will not prevent hearing damage. Common sense, however, will.


Regards,

WHAT? lol
 
#24 ·
I really wouldn't suggest getting another smaller energy sub, especially for what looks to be mostly HT.

If your budget doesn't allow for a lot of the higher end suggestions here (I know it's a lot easier to spend somebody else's money) I'd say start out with one mid-priced sub in the 500-650 range.

An ED A3-300 will run you about 600, or the HSU vtf-2 mk3 that bluesky was talking about is around 550, or SVS PB12-NSD is around 599+ shipping. Add another down the road if this turns out it isn't enough bass.

If you want to step up a little bit, ED a5-350 is a 15'' sub at 800 is a nice value for that price. And if you want to step down in price, the ed a2-300 is 350, but I wouldn't go any smaller than that.
 
#25 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek /forum/post/0

WHAT?



It's pure wisdom, dude. Take 20 subwoofers, integrate them perfectly within the room. Forgetting the fact that the net total SPL would be 140 dB's at a given frequency or frequency range. Now integrate those subwoofers. Man, you integate them, work them into that room. So what you have done ? You've created a balanced diet. But the capabilities are still there, dude.


Dude, think of it like this man : Hearing damage is incurred by :


1) Excessive SPL

2) Excessive SPL focused within a frequency range that the human ear is sensitive to.


So basically man, if you follow these steps and avoid them like the plague then you will never experience hearing damage. But if you integrate multiple subwoofers then you still run the risk of hearing damage within a certain frequency range. Dude, it's possible. I know what I'm talking about man.


Dude..


Regards,
 
#26 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten /forum/post/18155786


[/b]


It's pure wisdom, dude. Take 20 subwoofers, integrate them perfectly within the room. Forgetting the fact that the net total SPL would be 140 dB's at a given frequency or frequency range. Now integrate those subwoofers. Man, you integate them, work them into that room. So what you have done ? You've created a balanced diet. But the capabilities are still there, dude.


Dude, think of it like this man : Hearing damage is incurred by :


1) Excessive SPL

2) Excessive SPL focused within a frequency range that the human ear is sensitive to.


So basically man, if you follow these steps and avoid them like the plague then you will never experience hearing damage. But if you integrate multiple subwoofers then you still run the risk of hearing damage within a certain frequency range. Dude, it's possible. I know what I'm talking about man.


Dude..


Regards,

Dude. That is some funny stuff. What are you smoking? I want some, Dude.


Who said anything about playing back anything at 140 dB. Just where did you pull that number from? Same place you pulled 20 subs? It takes a lot higher sound pressure level at 20 Hz to damage your hearing than it does at 1000 Hz. Do a little research on how frequency and SPL affect your hearing. You might learn something. Dude.
 
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