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It's not wasting money on room correction with a limited budget.
Room correction and room treatments can be the biggest improvement in sound quality you can make.
Why buy bookshelf speakers and have to waste money on a sub to cover the deficiency?
Because the bass that I get from my calibrated, 1000 watts rms, dsp controlled, sealed 12" sub will destroy your towers for powerful, clean, and articulate bass.
You really need to go hear a properly calibrated system and hear the room correction being turned off and on, it'll be a huge eye opener for you. You'll really regret not hearing the difference sooner.

That's your opinion. You don't know my system, please don't say yours will destroy mine. What system do you have? What speakers and what amps? I have both bothshelves and floor standing. I take the floor standing any time of the day.


For music, less is more, adding DSP just adding one more layer of distortion.
 

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That's your opinion. You don't know my system, please don't say yours will destroy mine. What system do you have? What speakers and what amps? I have both bothshelves and floor standing. I take the floor standing any time of the day.


For music, less is more, adding DSP just adding one more layer of distortion.
Room correction isn't adding distortion of any kind, it will make your system sound more evenly blended and clearer.
I don't know how to explain it any other ways than I have.
Just do yourself a favor and go hear a properly calibrated system, whether it be a 2 channel system or home theatre.
And I didn't say my whole system will destroy yours, but I'm very confident the bass will.
As for mids and highs, everyone's taste is different, and I'm not a child in a pissing contest.
All budgets are different and the amount of money you are willing to spend on the hobby is different for everyone. My current system is worth about $9,000 retail. It was very carefully picked out, set up, and put together for my usage, so it's quite nice.
 

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Room correction isn't adding distortion of any kind, it will make your system sound more evenly blended and clearer.
I don't know how to explain it any other ways than I have.
Just do yourself a favor and go hear a properly calibrated system, whether it be a 2 channel system or home theatre.
And I didn't say my whole system will destroy yours, but I'm very confident the bass will.
As for mids and highs,everyone's taste is different, and I'm not a child in a pissing contest.

What speakers and amp do you have? I have both bookshelf and floor stander.


I believe in simplicity, I don't care to have a speaker that stop working below 80Hz and have to have a sub to make up the deficiency, and then have to spend money on room correction hopefully I can match it. I take a speaker that can do the whole thing, that is designed right to have all frequency match. I doubt OP care to deal with all the complications of room correction.


Again, please don't say yours can beat my speakers even in the bass department. You don't know my speakers.
 

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I don't think a bookshelf with sub can be equal to a bigger floor stander. I have two pairs of bookshelf and I have floor standers, I also have 2 subs. It's NOT the same. Particularly for movies, you need something to handle more power, a bookshelf just won't cut it.

Particular in this case, the choice is between a better amp or a floor stander, there should be NO debate that putting the money on a better floor stander is the best bang for the buck.

Put it in another way, if bookshelf+sub is as good, then people just spend 1/3 the money on a bookshelf and just get sub and it's all done. NOT.

I looked at quite a few brands, to every line in the brand, the bookshelf is like 1/2 to 1/3 the cost of the floor stander in the same line. You really think people are that stupid to keep buying floor standers where all you need to do is pay 1/3 to buy the bookshelf and get a sub and be done with.

You really think a bookshelf can give you the wall shaking volume for tv and movies.....I am not talking about low frequency, I am just talking about the loudness of the sound........a 4" to 6" little speaker?

I have both bookshelf and floor standers. AND I have good sub.............. They are NOT the same.


As for my personal experience, I use the system to watch tv/movies 99/9% at the time in 2 channels mode. I keep my sub very low, even if I turn off the sub, it really doesn't make much difference. With a bookshelf, you really have to work on the placement of the sub and speakers to get the right frequency crossover between the sub and the speakers. You sure you can optimize it? Or just get a floorstander and be done with it.
I agree, give me two good floorstanders any day. No sub.
 

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I believe in simplicity, I don't care to have a speaker that stop working below 80Hz ...

Again, please don't say yours can beat my speakers even in the bass department. You don't know my speakers.
Bookshelf speakers don't "stop working" below 80Hz.

They're right in your signature, so I think he can.
 

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If the OP likes the sound of his bookshelves, but wants better bottom end, getting a good subwoofer like a Rythmik is the easiest way to to do that. His receiver has an inferior version of Audyssey, but if he spends another $20 on the Audyssey app, he can cut off the worse part of it(above Schroeder) and still use it to correct the subwoofer.
That's what I'd do, assuming I liked the sound of my bookshelves, but wanted more potent bass.

Getting floorstanders that sound as good as two bookshelves and a subwoofer is going to cost more than $1200. That's what my floorstanders list for, and they sound good, but even better when I have the subwoofers take over the bass. I never listen to music without my subwoofers on.
 
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I agree, give me two good floorstanders any day. No sub.
Good tower speakers are fine, as long as you don't mind losing the bottom 20hz or so.
I personally want to hear the whole range in a recording, just as I wouldn't want the treble to drop off at 5khz.
Room correction will also give your tower speakers smoother, clearer bass.
An added bonus with room correction, you can try to find a space in your room where mids and highs sound great, but bass is a little too strong. So then the correction will not only clean up the sound, it's also cutting back some power where needed in the bass area, and this will give your amp an easier time and more headroom.
 

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That's because it's better than a floorstander.

No you don't, and yes it will - my current bookshelves + sub say otherwise.

The people who are constantly told that you need a floorstander or have it stuck in their heads that a pair of floorstanders on their own will outperform a very good pair of bookshelf speakers + a sub would keep buying floorstanders.
Did you see that I have both? Both of my bookshelves compare very good with yours according to your description of your setup. Do you have floorstander to give such a strong opinion? I do, and I am not putting people down. To each their own, you love bookshelf+sub, have it your way, but don't give such a strong opinion unless you actually have both.

A) You don't need wall-shaking volume for TV and movies. If you need the volume to be that loud to hear anything, you need to go get a hearing test. B) Bookshelf speakers get plenty loud, and C) Some bookshelf speakers - like the Monitor Audio Silver 100 - have 8" drivers.
Yeh, but most only have 4 or 6" woofers. There is law of physics how much air it can move from a given size woofer. If you go to 8", that's a big bookshelf crossing into regular or even floor stander already.

I'm guessing that's because you either don't have your towers set as small or you have your crossover settings down to a point that renders the subwoofer moot. Having your sub turned down low probably doesn't help, either. If you set them as small with an 80Hz crossover, and the correct sub gain level you'd notice a difference.
Did it ever occur to you that a good floor stander can go down to 40Hz? For $1200, the best bet is to spend money on a pair of good speakers instead of money on room correction and a sub. Not just bass, a good pair of floor stander will improve the mid and highs.

No you don't. It's very easy to find a spot for your subwoofer. Also, you'd still need to figure that out for your towers if you don't have a sub - bass is bass, and it's not going to do you any good placing your towers in a massive null.
Floor stander is going to be easier to find a good spot instead of finding a good spot for the bookshelf and then to find the spot for sub. AND you are hoping you can match the frequency and phase of the sub to when the bookshelf falls off. Floor stander are self contained and crossover designed to be smooth crossover. OP likely just want to buy a pair of speakers and be done with, NOT playing around with all these.

That's what room correction is for - whether you go through something like Audyssey or manually with a Umik + REW.
I look at you list of speakers you have, they are all small bookshelves. Can you fairly compare if you don't have floor standers? OP is ready to spend $1200, the speakers he's going to get is going to be very likely quite a bit better than your speakers. I won't give such a strong advice if I were you. Particular if he is willing to get used ones, he can get into higher end stuffs rather than mid-fi stuffs.
 

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The Chinese idiom “the frog at the bottom of the well” [井底之蛙,jǐng dǐ zhī wā] tells the story of a small frog that lived deep underground in an old well. The frog was born in the cold and dark well; it has never been outside of the well. All the frog knew of the outside world was the faint light far above it, which it took to be the sun.

One day, a bird flew down into the well and came across the frog. The bird said to the frog, “Come up to the outside world where it is bright and warm.” Upon hearing this, the frog laughed at the bird, thinking that the well was in fact the entire world.
The moral of this story warns against discounting things that lay outside one’s own viewpoint. This idiom is used to describe a person who have a limited experience of the world.
 

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The Chinese idiom “the frog at the bottom of the well” [井底之蛙,jǐng dǐ zhī wā] tells the story of a small frog that lived deep underground in an old well. The frog was born in the cold and dark well; it has never been outside of the well. All the frog knew of the outside world was the faint light far above it, which it took to be the sun.

One day, a bird flew down into the well and came across the frog. The bird said to the frog, “Come up to the outside world where it is bright and warm.” Upon hearing this, the frog laughed at the bird, thinking that the well was in fact the entire world.
The moral of this story warns against discounting things that lay outside one’s own viewpoint. This idiom is used to describe a person who have a limited experience of the world.
Indeed.
 

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Frog at the bottom of the well implies to people that have very limited experience and think they know it all. If someone ask opinion about a $100K speakers, I sure would not join in as I did NOT walk the mile. Worst is someone that don't have anything and talk so loud. And surprisingly there are quite a few, then pull some so called science and graphs.
 

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Yes. You get the point.
 

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Cool, thanks. I talked to a local shop when I upgraded to the Schitt Mani and he said after a good phono preamp the next upgrade was to a dedicated 2 channel amp. Mostly just because
your money buys better quality if it's not spread out over all the functions a home theater needs. However, when he suggested the amp next, I wasn't considering adding a sub or new speakers.

Like I said before, for $1200, you can get a decent new floor stander and you don't have to get a new amp or a sub. If you don't mind used, you can really get some nice speakers. Amp only can bring the best out of the speakers, speakers still define your system. I have all kinds of speakers and subs, subs is NOT that important for two channel music. A good floor stander that can reach to 40Hz is plenty good. I hardly use the sub, I have it very low, the floor stander does it all, you don't have to worry about all the matching.



I cannot vouch for this, but it seems the bigger floor stander is less critical in placement and room than little bookshelf. They seems to be more forgiving to room problem.


I believe in less is more when comes to hifi system, no DSP processing the signal, no tone control. The amp ideally is a wire with gain. I believe in just the source, running through a volume pot and straight to the power amp and to speakers, not even a preamp. $1200 for an older used pair ( like 10 years to 15 years old), you really can get into some high end speakers. You might even touch some of the Martin Logan smaller panel speakers. But I heard they are more demanding on amps though. Brands like Focals, Sonus Fabers are within reach in used market. I only name these two because I have personal experience, there are plenty more other good speakers. Get a really good pair of speakers and worry about amps and sub in the future.
 

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Good tower speakers are fine, as long as you don't mind losing the bottom 20hz or so.
I personally want to hear the whole range in a recording, just as I wouldn't want the treble to drop off at 5khz.
Room correction will also give your tower speakers smoother, clearer bass.
An added bonus with room correction, you can try to find a space in your room where mids and highs sound great, but bass is a little too strong. So then the correction will not only clean up the sound, it's also cutting back some power where needed in the bass area, and this will give your amp an easier time and more headroom.
On a five string bass the lowest note is 31hz. (4 string is 40 hz). My speakers have a F3 of 34 hz. I don't listen to organ music which some old cathedrals have that play to 18 hz. (you feel more than hear). I don't care about movie LFE or audio special effects. I got what I wanted for good 2 channel music playback and I just take what I get if I watch a movie. Suits me well.
 

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I agree with alan, buy floor standing speakers. Speakers make a thousand times more difference than electronics. That is why those in the know recommend spending about 75% of your budget on speakers. Also there are excellent subwoofers available for considerably less than the SVS SB2000 Pro, like the Rythmik mentioned above.



The Rythmik mentioned above is about $1000, while the SVS SB2000 Pro is $799. I don't think that qualifies as "considerably less." I don't have any experience with Rythmik subs but I thought they'd be much cheaper being internet direct. SVS is far from being a value leader, but they do offer free returns, and upgrade policy, which I'm sure inflates the price. Hsu is clearly the best bang for the buck, but it doesn't appear Rythmik is in this same category. Do you recommend any of their subs that are cheaper than a SB3000 or Hsu VTF3 Mk5 equivalent? For budget subs, it appears Emotiva and Outlaw are comparable to Hsu. Let me know if I'm missing something.
 

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The Rythmik mentioned above is about $1000, while the SVS SB2000 Pro is $799. I don't think that qualifies as "considerably less." I don't have any experience with Rythmik subs but I thought they'd be much cheaper being internet direct. SVS is far from being a value leader, but they do offer free returns, and upgrade policy, which I'm sure inflates the price. Hsu is clearly the best bang for the buck, but it doesn't appear Rythmik is in this same category. Do you recommend any of their subs that are cheaper than a SB3000 or Hsu VTF3 Mk5 equivalent? For budget subs, it appears Emotiva and Outlaw are comparable to Hsu. Let me know if I'm missing something.
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L12.html
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/LVX12.html
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/L22.html
 

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On a five string bass the lowest note is 31hz. (4 string is 40 hz). My speakers have a F3 of 34 hz. I don't listen to organ music which some old cathedrals have that play to 18 hz. (you feel more than hear). I don't care about movie LFE or audio special effects. I got what I wanted for good 2 channel music playback and I just take what I get if I watch a movie. Suits me well.
I'm glad that works for you, but room treatments and/or room correction will still improve the bass and lower midrange in your system, if you don't already have any now.
My main system is for 95% tv/movie usage, so I want it to go beyond the full 20hz to 20khz range. It was designed to be a mostly neutral and well calibrated system.
I don't use it for music much because for whatever reason, my family doesn't appreciate my mix of metal, rock, jazz, top 40 and classical music.
But when I do use it for music, it's an amazing system for that too.
I usually listen to music with a Chord mojo and Audeze Lcd3f headphones, which isn't much of a sacrifice.
 
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