[hschultz]

So we're finally eligible for FIOS and we're scheduled for installation next Friday. As a result of finally being able to get my locals in HD (we have D*TV and I was too cheap to upgrade my Tivo and I've never had much luck with rabbit ears), I'm going to relegate our 42" Plasma to the MBR and get a new RPTV for the FR.


It appears that the best prices I can get from local B&M's are $2,000 ($2,100 w/tax) for the Sony and $1,900 ($2,000 w/tax) for the Tosh. Obviously $100 difference is not enough to influence my decision. My wife says I don't need the extra 5".


I really don't have much of an opinion on either (they both look perfectly fine in the crappy conditions they're displayed in the big box stores), so for those of you who have taken the time and effort to really research both sets and tweak the settings a little using Avia or DVE (I have no intention of paying $400-$500 for a pro calibration), I'd appreciate your honest opinions. We don't watch many DVDs (and those we do are geared toward our 5 & 6 year old boys), but mostly just network TV (recorded on the Tivo and watched by the two of us after the lads are in bed).


Thanks in advance.

 

[TimothyB]

I've just had the 65hm167 but now have a 60A2020.


I started with the 65hm167 because of the price size and I expected to see rainbows, which I did, and live with it. Though, out of the box it had something behind the screen so I knew it would have to go back or replaced.


THE 65HM167


Overall I loved the picture of the 65hm167. Everytime I used it something wowed me and often had a 3D effect. Great detail, colors, contrast. I saw rainbows, but only in certain situations or if I tried to see it. One thing that began to pop out though was the silk screen effect (SSE). It was very noticeable on this tv, or when you did see it, it was stronger than most. I like to watch cartoons off cable and that's fuzzy and full of solid patches of color, a thriving enviornment for the SSE to show up. I just looked at it again in the store and it seemed worse than I remember, maybe at home after adjusting it really helped it (as many say, especially taking it off torch mode).


One thing I really loved about the tv was it's size. I was like, man, just 4:3 with pillars on the side was big enough to not even care about zooming (I sit 10 feet away).


Sometimes I felt like the screen wasn't as bright as I like in the day. For some reason in the "Cool" setting for color it was very bright, but setting it to nuetral or warm really dimmed the screen more than you'd expect for just a color shift.


Also, I recall there being a mpeg reduction option, which helps clear away artifacting in compressed images, this might be usefull for recored shows off a tivo. The sony has a smiliar noise reduction filter, but not sure if that's just random noise or focused on mpeg noise.


Regular tv was decent on the tv, there are a lot worse. So it was acceptable.


----------


THE 60A2020


With fee the DLP might end up giving me eye strain with rainbows or the SSE always bugging me, and having the oppurtinity to return the DLP due to defect (bought from Circuit City), I looked into the Sony SXRD 60A2020


Overall the picture on the 60A2020 is great too. Minimal SSE, no rainbows of course. But I haven't had as many wow, or 3D feeling from the display. It can have really vivid color and get real bright. I also really missed that 65inch size, for someone reason 60inches could not compare, and didn't feel much bigger than my older 55inch. I almost went back to get the Toshiba again but the SSE in store seemed worse and scared me away.


So nothing wrong with the display, but I'm left feeling unsatisfied with the size after experiencing the Toshiba.


I'd say though regular tv looks maybe slightly better.


Oh, both have auto iris, maybe a couple auto modes for the Sony, can't remember on the Toshiba. At night you can set the Sony to minimum for the iris to reduce brightness and help blacks, same on the Toshiba. Both also have a power saving or lamp saving mode to dim it even further.



To quickly sum it up, you can't go wrong with either tv, their picture is good. The Sony cons are it costs more and is smaller. The Toshiba is cheaper and larger but has rainbow and worse SSE.


Right now I'm looking at the Mitsubishi 65732. Close to the price of the Sony I paid, but has less SSE than the Toshiba . It also seems to have less rainbow to my eyes thanks to a 6-color wheel. Avoid the 65731, that has worse blacks and no iris.

 

[hschultz]

Thanks for your detailed thoughts Timothy--I really, really appreciate it!


As it turns out, I went back to my local CC this afternoon and compared the two (which was easy, as they were literally side-by-side with the exact same feed). I actually preferred the Tosh picture slightly. I actually preferred the Mits picture slightly more than the Tosh, but given the deal I got on the Tosh (CC PM'd the Tech Depot price!), and knowing that after I get it home and tweak the settings a little, any set will look great to my novice eyes, I went with 'bang-for-the-buck'. I'm not sure where else you can get a decent (maybe not the best) 65" RPTV for such a reasonable price.


Also got them to PM Tech Depot's 2-year warranty and got 12 months free money.

 

[TimothyB]



Quote:
Originally Posted by hschultz /forum/post/0


Thanks for your detailed thoughts Timothy--I really, really appreciate it!


As it turns out, I went back to my local CC this afternoon and compared the two (which was easy, as they were literally side-by-side with the exact same feed). I actually preferred the Tosh picture slightly. I actually preferred the Mits picture slightly more than the Tosh, but given the deal I got on the Tosh (CC PM'd the Tech Depot price!), and knowing that after I get it home and tweak the settings a little, any set will look great to my novice eyes, I went with 'bang-for-the-buck'. I'm not sure where else you can get a decent (maybe not the best) 65" RPTV for such a reasonable price.


Also got them to PM Tech Depot's 2-year warranty and got 12 months free money.

That's a nice price, and I think I can live with any of the Toshiba problems that I see at a Tech Depot price, as it only leaves room to upgrade easier when some better technology finally comes out. At CC right now at their current online price and AAA coupon it would be $140 more than tech depot. I'ts a tough decision for me. The Mitsu 65732 is nice, but would cost me as much as the 60a2020 while the Toshiba is much cheaper. And I mainly would have to order it from 1Call since I don't think Magnolia at Best Buy would go that low. At Best Buy they have all within short distance the 65731, 65732 and 65733, talk about overkill.


But you got me thinking, if CC will price match Tech Depot, and having just sold my Sony for around $1000, that makes the upgrade easily under $800 or so after all said and done.


So what did you have to do to convince them to go with Tech Depot, did the Office Depot being part of it made it more legit to pricematch? Did you have a printout? And TechDepot charges for shipping, so did they factor that into the total cost from them to what they pricematched to even though they have free shipping?


Also, didn't CC have 24 months no interest on Toshibas, or did you do a 12 month no payment type thing?


Considering I paid 2 years ago $2800 for a 55inch LCD Rear Projection 720p Sony, and that was the cheapest online at the time, seeing how you got a 65inch 1080p DLP for that price at TechDepot is too awesome to comprehend compared what things were like 2 years ago. And that's why I started looking for the best bang for your buck seeing as what I paid for my old tv and selling it for near 1/3rd the price I paid only 2 years ago.

 

[hschultz]

Timothy,


All very good questions, and I think you and I are prolly of a similar mind-set. Do I love the Tosh 65HM167? No. But then again, I'm really not blown away with anything else out there at the moment. Will TV's continue to get better and cheaper in the next few years? Absolutely. But given what I spent for my 65-incher today, do I care about relegating it to the basement for the kids in 3 years and buying a new state-of-the-art TV again then? No, I don't, since this is basically only costing me $150/mth interest free, which is nothing. Do I hate it when people ask/answer their own questions? Absolutely.


When the girl saw the "by Office Depot" logo under the Tech Depot heading, she was cool with the PM. She went back to her mgr and got it approved for $1,642. She didn't mention the S&H, so neither did I. I asked about the 110% PM guarantee, and she said that CC's fine print said it only dealt with local B&M inventory in stock (I had previously told her that I could order it through Tech Depot's 1-800 number and have it delivered to my local Office Depot--not sure if that's 100% true or not, but I went with the angle and it worked for me), so I didn't get the additional 10% off, which is fine of course.


She asked about an extended warranty (I wasn't sure what to do about it-I really wasn't planning to buy a TV today, as I had planned to do a little more research first), and I said that Tech Depot seemed to have a pretty good one. She went back to the TD site and read it, and said she'd PM it. So I got a 2-year CC warranty (which I understand is very good and includes unlimited lamp replacements) for an additional $172. It was interesting how she did the warranty. Apparently they can't override the warranty price (or so she said), so she discounted the TV an additional $180 (the difference between CC's 2-year warranty and TD's 2-year warranty), so that my final TV price is $1,465 plus the CC 2-year warranty for $350 plus $82/tax is $1,897 delivered. Not too shabby, IMHO. And in 3 years, I'll buy a new plasma or whatever is the latest/greatest then, but in the meantime, I have a relatively decent 65" for the Family Room to enjoy.

 

[TimothyB]



Quote:
Originally Posted by hschultz /forum/post/0


Timothy,


All very good questions, and I think you and I are prolly of a similar mind-set. Do I love the Tosh 65HM167? No. But then again, I'm really not blown away with anything else out there at the moment. Will TV's continue to get better and cheaper in the next few years? Absolutely. But given what I spent for my 65-incher today, do I care about relegating it to the basement for the kids in 3 years and buying a new state-of-the-art TV again then? No, I don't, since this is basically only costing me $150/mth interest free, which is nothing. Do I hate it when people ask/answer their own questions? Absolutely.


When the girl saw the "by Office Depot" logo under the Tech Depot heading, she was cool with the PM. She went back to her mgr and got it approved for $1,642. She didn't mention the S&H, so neither did I. I asked about the 110% PM guarantee, and she said that CC's fine print said it only dealt with local B&M inventory in stock (I had previously told her that I could order it through Tech Depot's 1-800 number and have it delivered to my local Office Depot--not sure if that's 100% true or not, but I went with the angle and it worked for me), so I didn't get the additional 10% off, which is fine of course.


She asked about an extended warranty (I wasn't sure what to do about it-I really wasn't planning to buy a TV today, as I had planned to do a little more research first), and I said that Tech Depot seemed to have a pretty good one. She went back to the TD site and read it, and said she'd PM it. So I got a 2-year CC warranty (which I understand is very good and includes unlimited lamp replacements) for an additional $172. It was interesting how she did the warranty. Apparently they can't override the warranty price (or so she said), so she discounted the TV an additional $180 (the difference between CC's 2-year warranty and TD's 2-year warranty), so that my final TV price is $1,465 plus the CC 2-year warranty for $350 plus $82/tax is $1,897 delivered. Not too shabby, IMHO. And in 3 years, I'll buy a new plasma or whatever is the latest/greatest then, but in the meantime, I have a relatively decent 65" for the Family Room to enjoy.

Thanks for the story. I wonder if I can ge them to pricematch and then apply the 10% AAA coupon on top of that.


I know what you mean about how they subtract from the tv to make discount on other items. This partially annoid me as it only makes it confusing for future revisions to the receipt.


When I went to return the Toshiba for the Sony because of the defect they updated the receipt by settign the Toshiba price to negative and adding in the Sony and where then the machine calculates the difference that I owe.


Well, originally the the $55 shipping was made free by subtracting it from the Toshiba price. When they added the Sony I asked if the shipping was still free and he said yes and the only money I'm paying is the difference between the tvs, so I wasn't going to be charged for shipping again even though it was on the receipt still. Well they forget to subtract the $55 from the new tv to cover shipping so the difference was $55 greater than it should have been between the tvs.


I didn't notice this at first and I didn't complain since they allowed me to keep a Toshiba HD-A1 HD-DVD player still for $199 even though that was only meant to be a price purchased with a Toshiba, not the Sony. Atleast the experience was more pleasant since the manager did all this himself at a register.



----------


At a different CC when I bought the Toshiba it was a nightmare!!!!


I had to drive 20 minutes back because they charaged me wrong. I originally got a Toshiba FireDog/TV Stand pacakge since it was literrally the same price as the tv and a $100 off manager special on an installation purhcases, it was a no brainer at first. I planned to get the Toshiba HD-A1 for the $200 off deal too. As they wrang it up it was so confusing because a lot of the installation package and stand were full price and things left and right were subtracted from the tv.


I saw the player still at $399 and asked where the $200 off was, and even a manger came over and pointed the to the tv price, saying it was subtracted there. Now with the AAA coupon, package discounts, I couldn't calculate it all in my head. But when I got home I found there was no $200 taken off, and they even forget to make the shipping free.


I drive back with my calculations on paper and hand it to an employee I worked with earlier who took it to the back and a manager who then came out not letting me get a word in edge wise. I finally got through to him what my complaint was after he kept interuppting me and assuming the wrong thing, not a great way to start. He was making me feel like an idiot as he was saying stuff about the numbers without letting me walk him through it and where theirs went wrong.


Anyway, he finally said no, you can't combine the HD-A1 offer with the package (which i think he assumed I knew the whole time looking at the numbers), saying it would be too good of a deal and it being a separate package deal, even though that wasn't stated in the ad, only just $200 off HD-DVD player purchase with any Toshiba TV it said.


And that was that, even though one of them came over and said to my face it was okay when I purchased they would not budge. Then it took longer to tell him it would be cheaper for me to just get the tv with the coupon and player half off since the player was what was important and not the stand or install, like a $180 cheaper, even when I'd lose the $100 manager off special, he kept telling me it would be the same until I had it him ring it up (which I again found him assuming I had the $500 HD-A20 player), which then he just pointed me to customer service to fix things.


That took like an hour more as they couldn't get things right and always needed authorization where they kept leaving to get someone for 10 minutes at a time. Then just as everything seemd to go right one girl started calculating my 10% off wrong. She seemed positive that 10% off a total of $2500 price was $25 (she was calculating 1%) and looking at me like I was trying to trick here. I even pointed out how tax at 7% or so be 4-5 times higher than what she did with 10%, then after having to get another employee to tell her wrong it was another 20 minutes to get it right again.


Yet the manager at a different CC had the tv exchanged to the Sony done in 5 minutes himself at a register in the tv area. I was ready to never buy from CC again until that pleasant experience despite being charged for shipping by mistake again.

 

[aydu]

Rude behavior coupled with incorrect pricing and you'd go back?


Imagine actually needing service from these bozos.

 

[gvg45]



Quote:
Originally Posted by hschultz /forum/post/0


Timothy,

So I got a 2-year CC warranty (which I understand is very good and includes unlimited lamp replacements) for an additional $172. It was interesting how she did the warranty. Apparently they can't override the warranty price (or so she said), so she discounted the TV an additional $180 (the difference between CC's 2-year warranty and TD's 2-year warranty), so that my final TV price is $1,465 plus the CC 2-year warranty for $350 plus $82/tax is $1,897 delivered. Not too shabby, IMHO.

I bought the extended warranty also from CC when I bought my Sony XBR1 a little over a year ago. The sales lady told me that it covers unlimited lamp replacements, but I knew from reading this site that was not true. I read the fine print to her and it stated 1 bulb replacement over the life of the warranty. Just a heads up. It may have changed in the last year, but I would certainly check as it seems a lot of the sales people are not aware of this. What is nice about the CC x-tended warranty is that you can cancel it at anytime without any penalty.


FWIW, after my XBR1 needed to be replaced due to unsuccessful service attempts, I did a little research on x-tended warranties for my new set. I found Macks warranty through AVS. You may want to check it out. It will give you 4 years coverage (1 manufacturer + 3 Mack) on the set while covering 2 bulb replacements through the first 3 years of having your set for about $30 more than what you paid from CC.

http://tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_combo.html

 

[TimothyB]



Quote:
Originally Posted by gvg45 /forum/post/0


I bought the extended warranty also from CC when I bought my Sony XBR1 a little over a year ago. The sales lady told me that it covers unlimited lamp replacements, but I knew from reading this site that was not true. I read the fine print to her and it stated 1 bulb replacement over the life of the warranty. Just a heads up. It may have changed in the last year, but I would certainly check as it seems a lot of the sales people are not aware of this. What is nice about the CC x-tended warranty is that you can cancel it at anytime without any penalty.


FWIW, after my XBR1 needed to be replaced due to unsuccessful service attempts, I did a little research on x-tended warranties for my new set. I found Macks warranty through AVS. You may want to check it out. It will give you 4 years coverage (1 manufacturer + 3 Mack) on the set while covering 2 bulb replacements through the first 3 years of having your set for about $30 more than what you paid from CC.

http://tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_combo.html

Oh, I forgot to mention that to him since that did seem odd, the unlimited lamps. Here's a pullout form the CC website, notice how it says original lamp:


"Big-screen TVs (25 & up) & satellite dishes: A Circuit City AdvantageSM Protection Plan provides in-home service on both products. If your original projection TV lamp fails, we'll mail you a replacement."

 

[gvg45]



Quote:
Originally Posted by TimothyB /forum/post/0


Oh, I forgot to mention that to him since that did seem odd, the unlimited lamps. Here's a pullout form the CC website, notice how it says original lamp:


"Big-screen TVs (25 & up) & satellite dishes: A Circuit City AdvantageSM Protection Plan provides in-home service on both products. If your original projection TV lamp fails, we'll mail you a replacement."

Right, original lamp. Usually meaning 1 bulb replacement.

 

[sambao21]

I'm looking into a similar situation as this, but I'm looking at the 50A2020 because I can get it for the same price as the 65HM167. I've been reading what you guys have been saying, and I think that it sounds like the Toshiba's IQ is slightly inferior to Sony's. However, I'm an average consumer, and not a typical AVS Forum reader (This is my second post ever). So, would I be able to even tell the SSE or the Rainbow effect on the Toshiba? I'm thinking that I won't be able to even tell that it's bad, but I know that I will be able to tell the additional 15".


Also, I guess it sounds like that I should definetly get the protection plan from Circuit City if I get the Toshiba. Should I routinely get the bulb replaced every 2 years, or until it goes bad?


Beside picture quality, how are the other features of the Toshiba vs the Sony? The guy that was trying to sell the Sony was saying how SXRD is so much more reliable because it doesn't have 2 million moving mirrors. He kept saying that it's much better than DLP in terms of reliability and product life. Is he just blowing smoke or is there some validity here?

What about other features of the Toshiba and Sony such as the inputs? I read the CNet review on the Sony, and it pretty much says that the PC input sucks, hows the toshibas?


Thanks.

 

[gvg45]



Quote:
Originally Posted by sambao21 /forum/post/0


So, would I be able to even tell the SSE or the Rainbow effect on the Toshiba? I'm thinking that I won't be able to even tell that it's bad, but I know that I will be able to tell the additional 15".


Also, I guess it sounds like that I should definetly get the protection plan from Circuit City if I get the Toshiba. Should I routinely get the bulb replaced every 2 years, or until it goes bad?

The only way to know if you will experience SSE or RBE (rainbows) is to go to your local CC or BB and sit and watch a set for a little while. RBE is said to be a bit easier seen on black and white scenes, while SSE is easier with white/bright background scenes.


It will be strongly suggested here that if your going to invest into a RPTV, a extended warranty should be considered. The CC warranty may be debated due to cost and services. I am fairly certain their extended warranty only covers 1 bulb replacement over the span of their contract. Also, bulb replacement would only be necessary once you notice significant dimming or it just goes out. Usually these bulbs last anywhere between 4K-8k hours of viewing with minimal on/off cycles.

 

[sambao21]

I'll go check it out tonight. I did a little reading on SSE and Rainbow effect, and it sounds like that it may be up to the person if it's apparent or not? Like you see it or you don't, is that correct? If so, and I don't see it on the Toshiba, does that mean, I'll never be able to see it in the future? I'm still not entirely sure what SSE and Rainbow effect are since I can seem to find a picture of it.


Right now I'm leaning towards 1080p to future proof, and the 65" since that 15" helps justify the higher price than a 50" 720p tv. Am I wrong?


What is the maximum viewdistance for a 65" tv?

 

[aydu]



Quote:
Originally Posted by sambao21 /forum/post/0


I'm looking into a similar situation as this, but I'm looking at the 50A2020 because I can get it for the same price as the 65HM167. I've been reading what you guys have been saying, and I think that it sounds like the Toshiba's IQ is slightly inferior to Sony's. However, I'm an average consumer, and not a typical AVS Forum reader (This is my second post ever). So, would I be able to even tell the SSE or the Rainbow effect on the Toshiba? I'm thinking that I won't be able to even tell that it's bad, but I know that I will be able to tell the additional 15".


Also, I guess it sounds like that I should definetly get the protection plan from Circuit City if I get the Toshiba. Should I routinely get the bulb replaced every 2 years, or until it goes bad?


Beside picture quality, how are the other features of the Toshiba vs the Sony? The guy that was trying to sell the Sony was saying how SXRD is so much more reliable because it doesn't have 2 million moving mirrors. He kept saying that it's much better than DLP in terms of reliability and product life. Is he just blowing smoke or is there some validity here?

What about other features of the Toshiba and Sony such as the inputs? I read the CNet review on the Sony, and it pretty much says that the PC input sucks, hows the toshibas?


Thanks.

The DLP sets have color wheels - moving parts - along with the mirrors on the chip itself.


SXRD eliminates the mirrors and color wheel, so no moving parts to wear out here. They do, however, have reported issues with the light engine devloping discoloration over time. This is referred to as the green haze or blob problem.


Extended warranty purchase makes sense for either of these technologies. Repair costs are high for problems with either the color wheel; or light engine.


Lamps will go on either set over time.

 

[hugabone]



Quote:
Originally Posted by sambao21 /forum/post/0


I'll go check it out tonight. I did a little reading on SSE and Rainbow effect, and it sounds like that it may be up to the person if it's apparent or not? Like you see it or you don't, is that correct? If so, and I don't see it on the Toshiba, does that mean, I'll never be able to see it in the future? I'm still not entirely sure what SSE and Rainbow effect are since I can seem to find a picture of it.


Right now I'm leaning towards 1080p to future proof, and the 65" since that 15" helps justify the higher price than a 50" 720p tv. Am I wrong?


What is the maximum viewdistance for a 65" tv?

I was seeing SSE in the stores but it's rarely noticeable in my home. I was going to wait and see how the new Mits is going to do but I just might keep my set. I don't think it will be worth the thousand dollar difference. I can't go back to anything smaller than 65" at 14 feet away so any Sony rptv but the 70" is out of the question, but the 70" is way out of my price range. If I were to spend anymore than I did for the set, I would get a front projector but cant because of the room conditions.

 

[sambao21]



Quote:
Originally Posted by aydu /forum/post/0


The DLP sets have color wheels - moving parts - along with the mirrors on the chip itself.


SXRD eliminates the mirrors and color wheel, so no moving parts to wear out here. They do, however, have reported issues with the light engine devloping discoloration over time. This is referred to as the green haze or blob problem.


Extended warranty purchase makes sense for either of these technologies. Repair costs are high for problems with either the color wheel; or light engine.


Lamps will go on either set over time.

So the sales wasn't just hyping SXRD. Has anyone bought a 65Hm167 and kept it? I got a 3 year warranty that covers I think 1 bulb replacement. I would hope that would cover anything going on with the color wheel on the Toshiba. I guess this is a risk with any DLP set. Is this really something to be concerned about though or is it a pretty reliable technology? I'm leaning towards the 65" since it's a whole 15" bigger, and I'm going to go see if i can tell the SSE or Rainbow on it tonight. Does the Sony not have any noticeable SSE or Rainbow or Screen Door Effect?

 

[koan]

Plenty have bought the 65HM167 and kept it. There's an owners thread and an earlier thread on the new Toshibas. Toshibas in the past have had some early bulb failures, but not many reports of it on the 2006 models. Still, an extended warranty is a good idea especially with manufacturers taking cost-saving measures on producing these sets.


I can see SSE on my 57HM167 from 7 1/2 feet, but was able to reduce it through setting adjustments. It probably wouldn't have bothered me if I didn't know what it was. Most don't see rainbows, at least not to the extent it is bothersome. The Sony isn't a DLP so won't have rainbows, but will have SSE to some degree. Screen door effect isn't a problem on DLP or LCOS sets.

 

[sambao21]

I took the bullet, and switched over, but not to a 65HM167. Instead I got the 57HM167 for $1450, then i took out a 3 year warranty that covers bulb replacement for $199. I got it for less than the Sony and it's also bigger. It's not as big as the 65", but the room I'm going to have it in, is not too terribly big, so I'll be sitting about 8'-10' feet away, so I think 57" should be plenty big. The main motivator on this is so that I can pick up a new grill and lawn mower which I needed desperately.

 

[sambao21]

I went to Best Buy last night, and looked, and I think I could tell the SSE (I'm still not entirely sure if I'm seeing the right thing.) I could see a bunch of little black specks especially on bright back ground. I first noticed it when the guy was using the menu to adjust settings. It's not really noticeable. I think I've seen stuff like that with all tvs that I've watched and didn't know any better.


I went around and looked at every DLP in the store, and I think I could see it on all of them. I looked at the plasmas, and I did not see the same little black specks.