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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have a 5.1 system comprised of B & W cm9's , cm series surround and a Yamaha rx-v863 avr. I am upgrading to separates for more power. I was considering Marantz mm7055 amp and related pre amp. But a friend recommended the Yamaha mx-a5000. The Yamaha is twice the price and amp. Is it twice as good? Or do any of you have another recommendation in this price range?

What started this move was poor midrange in my cm9's. Anyone else have experience with this issue?

Thanks in advance, Tom
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragboatdad  /t/1518963/advice-on-power-amps-please#post_24385851


I have a 5.1 system comprised of B & W cm9's , cm series surround and a Yamaha rx-v863 avr. I am upgrading to separates for more power. I was considering Marantz mm7055 amp and related pre amp. But a friend recommended the Yamaha mx-a5000. The Yamaha is twice the price and amp. Is it twice as good?

No.
Quote:
Or do any of you have another recommendation in this price range?

What started this move was poor midrange in my cm9's. Anyone else have experience with this issue?

Thanks in advance, Tom

I can't imagine why you think that changing amplifiers will improve the midrange. For the most part midrange requires only milliwatts of power.
 

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I would agree with FMW that a separate amp will likely not resolve your midrange issues.


Room acoustics are a much more likely suspect causing your midrange issues. Does your receiver have YPAO? If so, are you using it?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by FMW  /t/1518963/advice-on-power-amps-please#post_24386109


No.

I can't imagine why you think that changing amplifiers will improve the midrange. For the most part midrange requires only milliwatts of power.

That kind of depends, if the CM9 is anything like my 804s, they spend a lot of the midrange below 4ohms, even though the speaker is rated at 8 ohms. So yeah, the midrange can be the hardest load to drive with some B&W. Not familiar with either of those amps, but since I only care about movies a little and music a lot, I use a Yamaha Adventage a820 as my processor and just use the pre outs to an amp for my front 3. Rotel will do a good job with B&W, Parasound halo series does a bit better. Classe and McIntosh sound great as well, but I am guessing you don't want to go that far budget wise. Note, I have used the Rotel Class A/B amps, never tried their class D.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Thanks for the replies. I should clarify that the midrange didn't always lack in quality, something has changed with the avr. I've read several articles that claim the cm9's are avr killers because of the loads they put on them. I'm looking for upgrade recommendations that would be a good fit for these speakers.

Thanks
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragboatdad  /t/1518963/advice-on-power-amps-please#post_24387278


Thanks for the replies. I should clarify that the midrange didn't always lack in quality, something has changed with the avr. I've read several articles that claim the cm9's are avr killers because of the loads they put on them. I'm looking for upgrade recommendations that would be a good fit for these speakers.

Thanks
Since you are confident that the avr has changed for the worse, separates are the next step.  More so with the type of load the B&W's present.  I'd concur on the idea of using an AVR with 5.1 pre-outs as a processor for a good 5 channel amp.  AVR's from Denon or Marantz would be a good fit, or if you are set on a dedicated processor, the Marantz AV7701 is a great option.  Amps are another story as multi channel amps are not Marantz's best products.  I'd suggest looking into Outlaw Audio if budget is an issue, or Parasound/NAD if you've got more room there.
 

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Neither the speakers nor the amplifier are the cause of your problem. What you have is an equalization problem relative to your preferences. Your AVR has equalized things to a standard that you don't like. The way to handle it is to simply raise the midrange using the room calibration software until you get the presentation you prefer. In other words, you already have what you need to fix the issue.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dragboatdad  /t/1518963/advice-on-power-amps-please#post_24387278


Thanks for the replies. I should clarify that the midrange didn't always lack in quality, something has changed with the avr. I've read several articles that claim the cm9's are avr killers because of the loads they put on them. I'm looking for upgrade recommendations that would be a good fit for these speakers.

Thanks

The only thing that would change sonically is the room calibration software. Spend some time with it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Iostream  /t/1518963/advice-on-power-amps-please#post_24387170


That kind of depends, if the CM9 is anything like my 804s, they spend a lot of the midrange below 4ohms, even though the speaker is rated at 8 ohms. So yeah, the midrange can be the hardest load to drive with some B&W. Not familiar with either of those amps, but since I only care about movies a little and music a lot, I use a Yamaha Adventage a820 as my processor and just use the pre outs to an amp for my front 3. Rotel will do a good job with B&W, Parasound halo series does a bit better. Classe and McIntosh sound great as well, but I am guessing you don't want to go that far budget wise. Note, I have used the Rotel Class A/B amps, never tried their class D.

It is immaterial. No AVR has a problem with 4 ohms at normal listening levels and certainly not in the midrange even at high listening levels. He has an issue with the way the system handled EQ.
 

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oh really a bloke with M&K S-150 changing to power helped a lot. My speakers are 4ohm too. In fact all of my front speakers in both hifi and home theatre are 4ohm.


Who is thiS FMW clown?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by fatbottom  /t/1518963/advice-on-power-amps-please#post_24388690


oh really a bloke with M&K S-150 changing to power helped a lot. My speakers are 4ohm too. In fact all of my front speakers in both hifi and home theatre are 4ohm.


Who is thiS FMW clown?

Someone who understands audio better than you do.
 

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Uh, yeah, FMW is just clowning around, with some experience and knowledge behind the smile...


The OP said something has changed with the AVR. A failing amplifier would show up more in the lower frequencies than in the midrange, and would probably add noise and higher-frequency distortion. I have trouble seeing how it would drop just midrange volume. I tend to side with those who look for the root cause rather than jumping on the amplifier bandwagon. What else might have changed? Move the speakers, move any furniture, add anything to the room? What happens if you reset the AVR and re-run the room correction program?
 

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Yes, it is all just a matter of EQ. You can work on fixing the room or the speaker placement or simply adjust YPAO until you get what you want.
 

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It could be EQ, it could be the amp. Yes, the 804 at least is too much for some receivers to drive, I blame the midrange due to the stereophile measurements:
Quote:
The speaker is a moderately difficult load for the partnering amplifier to drive. Not only does its impedance reach a minimum value of 3 ohms at 108Hz, there is a combination of 4.5 ohms and a 53° capacitive phase angle at 72Hz, and the impedance remains below 4 ohms for much of the midrange and the top octave.

But that is only why I blame the midrange vs other areas of the speaker. The idea that some receivers cannot drive this speaker properly came from first hand experience. When the amp for my 805s upstairs had to be sent in for service, I moved the 804s to be powered by the Yamaha Adventage a820 downstairs, and moved their amp to drive the 805s. In pure direct mode, 2 channels driven, the Yamaha could not properly drive the 804s at decent listening levels. I haven't seen the measurements on the CM9, but it is a similar configuration, also from B&W, I would guess it faces similar issues. The Yamaha RX-863 certainly wouldn't have much more power than their adventage a820
 

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I thought the OP had CM9's? IIRC they are not as difficult a load as the 804/804D's...
 

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assuming that the impedance in the midrange presents a difficult enough challenge to flummox a particular amp at normal listening levels (when we're using way less than 10 watts on average) AIUI, what will happen is the amp will clip. It cannot deliver a different power to the midrange than to the bass and highs versus what the incoming signal calls for (leaving aside the effects of clipping itself). It can only either fully service the load or not. The only real departure from this, AFAIK, is when the amp's output impedance is so high that it changes the frequency response into a difficult load. That's entirely power-independent, and except for a few tube amps, I can't recall seeing a test where the departure is even half a dB. 0.25 dB is more commonly the big departure from flat frequency response. Now that could be audible, especially if it is across a broad enough frequency range.


Otherwise, either you have audible clipping or you don't and if you don't (and the amp doesn't get into thermal trouble driving the load) the amp won't be the problem. IME, what clipping sounds like can very with the program material and how a given listener "hears" or reacts to clipping can vary. And once you get to trying to use language to describe what you hear, it gets almost impossible to communicate. People who know what an octave wide 3 dB bump at 2 KHz sounds like can talk about that all day long and understand each other. But to one person it may sound like more detail, while to another it sounds a little shrill, and another may very well hear it as something being lost in the lower midrange or bass, even though those frequencies are untouched . . .
 

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I'll throw my two cents in... IMO changing the amp will achieve nothing, assuming it isn’t been driven into clipping or protection as JHAz says. The speaker isn't a killer thing to drive and any decent modern AVR should be able to drive it without problems.  FMW and Don are right too IMO. I’d be looking at acoustics in the room or electronic EQ if I had an issue with midrange performance, (given that the speakers have a decent midrange response) not at changing amps which in all likelihood won’t make a jot of difference to the SQ.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Thanks to all who shared their knowledge on this issue.

Update; new marantz separates made very little difference. We hooked up some different speakers and they sounded fine with the avr. We compared everything using pure direct. It had to be my imagination that something had changed with the avr. Yamaha is always good quality. Bottom line is the eq just needed a little tweeking. And yes I did try that prior to posting this thread but it took comparing other speakers and components until I was sure.

well at least I now have upgraded power. I probably opened a can of worms now because new speakers are on the way and probably a Oppo too.

Thanks again
 
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