Our native mobile app has a new name: Fora Communities. Learn more.

Advice - Optimizing (2) Subs

858 Views 18 Replies 5 Participants Last post by kalhua, Jun 13, 2021

kalhua

Discussion Starter · Jun 10, 2021

I have been trying to dial in my (2) subs. Once I settled on the best location (Front Left - Back Right) I ran YPAO and zeroed out the PEQ for the sub. I then used REW in an attempt to better time align them and to remove some peaks. Additionally, I set up a slope of approx. 9 db (House Curve) between 30 and 100. Attached is my filtered graph. Overall I would say the sound is better than before but I still feel like there is something that isn't right particularly with music. Perhaps I need to dial things in a bit different when listening to music. Currently my subs are a couple DB above the other speakers. I have a Yamaha CX5200 and all other settings; bass/treble, extra bass, subwoofer trim, etc. are all off or otherwise in a neutral position. At this point I am not sure what else to do. Can one of you pros provide input on my graph? Should I have gone about the house curve differently? Do you adjust settings differently for music and movies? I also put my unfiltered graph below for reference. Thanks in advance for any guidance you can provide.

See less See more

2

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

badtlc

· #2 · Jun 10, 2021

So for my personal taste with music you are missing the midbass with that house curve and that is drastic when it comes to music.

Reactions: 1

dpc716

· #3 · Jun 10, 2021

What subs do you have?

When you say something's "not right", can you be more specific? Too bassy? Not enough punch? Does the bass seem "thick" or does it hang too long? Are there imaging or localization issues (e.g. does the origin of the sound seem to shift from front to back)?

kalhua

Discussion Starter · #4 · Jun 11, 2021

badtlc said:
So for my personal taste with music you are missing the midbass with that house curve and that is drastic when it comes to music.

Thanks for you response. I was thinking that might be an issue. Do you have a recommendation for music? I can probably just enter it in one of the slots in my minidsp. I did notice some improvement when I turned on extra bass. It seems to run the curve up in the other direction although not as extreme. It hover sounded like it caused other issues.

kalhua

Discussion Starter · #5 · Jun 11, 2021

dpc716 said:
What subs do you have?

When you say something's "not right", can you be more specific? Too bassy? Not enough punch? Does the bass seem "thick" or does it hang too long? Are there imaging or localization issues (e.g. does the origin of the sound seem to shift from front to back)?

Thanks for your reply. I have SVS SB4000's. I have difficulty describing what I don't like about the sound. I think it feels like something is missing. I went to a friends house and watched some clips for a movie and his seemed to have more impact or punch. The scene was from 13 Hours where there are mortars launching and machine guns firing. His subs aren't as large as mine but they seem to sound differently. I think I am playing at a similar volume and his subs aren't being ran "hotter" than mine.

I wouldn't say mine are boomy and localization is not an issue. I also don't hear a shift from front to back. I think my problem is am am trying to find a one size fits all when it comes to my settings and that is incorrect. Maybe my room is the issue, who knows. I am a rookie at all of this and start changing settings ending up with something that sounds different but not necessarily better. I will try and do some critical listening so I can do a better job describing what I am hearing.

Thanks.

See less See more

ctsv510

· #6 · Jun 11, 2021

My advice, dial back the house curve to no more than 3-4dB. You don’t need as drastic a difference in SPL between 100 and 30 as some may lead you to believe. I started off around where you are and brought it down about 3dB from 40 to 100 and it made a big difference in bringing back that punch.

Reactions: 1

kalhua

Discussion Starter · #7 · Jun 11, 2021

ctsv510 said:
My advice, dial back the house curve to no more than 3-4dB. You don’t need as drastic a difference in SPL between 100 and 30 as some may lead you to believe. I started off around where you are and brought it down about 3dB from 40 to 100 and it made a big difference in bringing back that punch.

Thanks, I will redo it and see how it sounds. Do you think I will have any issues doing so based on my native curve? It seems like I will have nulls between 40 and 70.

Thanks

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

dpc716

· #8 · Jun 11, 2021

Anything you can do to improve your native response from 50-100hz would be a benefit. For example, I found pointing one of my subs that are up front towards the TV instead of towards the back of the room helped with midbass. Maybe revisit your placement exercise with that in mind?

ctsv510

· #9 · Jun 11, 2021

kalhua said:
Thanks, I will redo it and see how it sounds. Do you think I will have any issues doing so based on my native curve? It seems like I will have nulls between 40 and 70.

Thanks

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

Like @dpc716 ; noted, go back to placement and time alignment to try get a better response in the areas that you find to be important to you. Even a 90° turn on one sub may kick in enough extra SPL where you need it. Also, it looks like you only cut and haven’t boosted at all, which is fine, but it is OK to boost when EQing. It’s no worse than cutting everywhere and then raising the gain or sub trim in AVR.

kalhua

Discussion Starter · #10 · Jun 11, 2021

I think I will zero out my mindsp and rerun YPAO to get a new baseline. I have had it better than it is and am not sure what happened. Is there a process to go through to validate the various adjustments that can be made? I have some time this weekend and would like to get things dialed back in if possible. Are these the correct steps?

1. Set Subwoofer gain to a midpoint
2. Verify Subs are crossed at Max.
3. Turn off any DSP or other "tweaks" for subs. Set subs to Normal polarity and in Phase
4. Reset any adjustments in the Yamaha such as Subwoofer Trim, Bass/Treble Control, Extra Bass, Etc.
5. Run YPAO
6. Change PEQ to Flat and copy settings to "manual". Zero out PEQ adjustments for Subs
7. Verify speakers crossed properly (80 htz for mains and center) other per capabilities but all "small"
8. Verify volume is equal across all speakers. Should I boost subs a couple DB here?
9. Measure with REW

What is the best sequence from here when it comes to the following?

Adjusting subs polarity
Adjusting subs phase
Adding delay to closest sub

Do I adjust one or both?

I have read that minor adjustments to location of subs can make a difference but that doesn't seem to be the case in my room (see attached for configuration). I don't have a lot of options as far as locating my MLP or the subs or anything else for that matter. I have tried both subs up front and both in the back. I have also tried moving them slightly away from the wall and placing the rear closer to the corner. The diagonal setup I ended up with seems to be the best. Would adding another sub or two help?

Thanks

See less See more

bear123

· #11 · Jun 11, 2021

I think your placement and setup was good overall, BUT, did you run sweeps with subs and speaker to see how the response looks around crossover i.e. 60-120 Hz? If you are looking at "subs only" sweeps, I recommend doing combined sweeps. L+subs, C+ subs, R+ subs, and see how the combined response looks if you haven't. Also, what kind of speakers do you have? Highly capable speakers are very important for the 60-300 Hz region. I would also run some sweeps of your LCR independently. SBIR can cause issues especially if following the old fashioned audiophile trend of pulling speakers out from the wall….a left over practice from the days before eq.

kalhua

Discussion Starter · #12 · Jun 11, 2021

bear123 said:
I think your placement and setup was good overall, BUT, did you run sweeps with subs and speaker to see how the response looks around crossover i.e. 60-120 Hz? If you are looking at "subs only" sweeps, I recommend doing combined sweeps. L+subs, C+ subs, R+ subs, and see how the combined response looks if you haven't. Also, what kind of speakers do you have? Highly capable speakers are very important for the 60-300 Hz region. I would also run some sweeps of your LCR independently. SBIR can cause issues especially if following the old fashioned audiophile trend of pulling speakers out from the wall….a left over practice from the days before eq.

Thanks for your response. I did run sweeps with the FL + Subs and FR + Subs. From what I recall there wasnt an extreme difference in the frequency range I have been focusing on. I will document those graphs better when I go through it all again this weekend. My mains are Definitive Technologies Mythos ST's. They are pulled off the wall as yuou mentioned (see room layout in post 10 above). Honesty they sound better there to me there when listening to music in straight stereo mode. When I originally setup my room years ago I had them closer to the wall and farther from the MLP. That was until I noticed a distinct sound difference (improvement) when I was sitting closer to them. The adjustment away from the wall brought the improved sound when seated in the MLP. They have a small sub built in. I dont have LFE hooked to them at this point. I have ran tests with their gain knobs in various positions and that did change the response. The changes werent just in overall level but in certain ranges. I dont remember the exact range but I believe I left it where I felt it was best measurment wise. If I remember correctly I had their gain too low when I ran YPAO the last time. In doing so YPAO set their crossover range to 120. I ended up turning the knob up to where it was on a previous YPAO calibration and lowered the crossover to 80. I have read that that is not advisable but did some sweeps witrh them set at various crossover frequencies and with the PEQ on and off with no drastic visible difference.

Thanks.

See less See more

badtlc

· #13 · Jun 11, 2021

kalhua said:
Thanks for you response. I was thinking that might be an issue. Do you have a recommendation for music? I can probably just enter it in one of the slots in my minidsp. I did notice some improvement when I turned on extra bass. It seems to run the curve up in the other direction although not as extreme. It hover sounded like it caused other issues.

I can only give my personal taste but I love to EQ my subs flat and then just increase the subs by about 6dB with a 120Hz crossover. I'm a bit of a metalhead, though, so this really brings the kick drums and bass guitars to life. I can feel the kick drums in my chest depending on the band and how they mixed their audio.

badtlc

· #14 · Jun 11, 2021

kalhua said:
Thanks for your response. I did run sweeps with the FL + Subs and FR + Subs. From what I recall there wasnt an extreme difference in the frequency range I have been focusing on. I will document those graphs better when I go through it all again this weekend. My mains are Definitive Technologies Mythos ST's. They are pulled off the wall as yuou mentioned (see room layout in post 10 above). Honesty they sound better there to me there when listening to music in straight stereo mode. When I originally setup my room years ago I had them closer to the wall and farther from the MLP. That was until I noticed a distinct sound difference (improvement) when I was sitting closer to them. The adjustment away from the wall brought the improved sound when seated in the MLP. They have a small sub built in. I dont have LFE hooked to them at this point. I have ran tests with their gain knobs in various positions and that did change the response. The changes werent just in overall level but in certain ranges. I dont remember the exact range but I believe I left it where I felt it was best measurment wise. If I remember correctly I had their gain too low when I ran YPAO the last time. In doing so YPAO set their crossover range to 120. I ended up turning the knob up to where it was on a previous YPAO calibration and lowered the crossover to 80. I have read that that is not advisable but did some sweeps witrh them set at various crossover frequencies and with the PEQ on and off with no drastic visible difference.

Thanks.

Have you put in the time with REW to sweep all your possible locations "and" orientations to find the best two complimentary locations/directions? If you are starting over, start here. For that sub behind the couch I would measure at least 4 or 5 different spots back there and measure with the sub facing all 4 directions in each location. Yeah it ends up being a lot of measurements but when you do them all at once it doesn't take that much time. Only measure one sub. Don't measure them combined. To keep it simple, just move one sub around to all the measurements spots so you dont need to worry about settings or distance issues.

After finding two complimentary locations, you can figure out the best delay settings and do a predicted combined response using the REW alignment tool. It will very accurately predict the combined response. Then you input the delays and verify combined response matches REW. At this point you can present it to YPAO again. After YPAO you can move on to alignment with speakers.

See less See more

kalhua

Discussion Starter · #15 · Jun 11, 2021

badtlc said:
Have you put in the time with REW to sweep all your possible locations "and" orientations to find the best two complimentary locations/directions? If you are starting over, start here. For that sub behind the couch I would measure at least 4 or 5 different spots back there and measure with the sub facing all 4 directions in each location. Yeah it ends up being a lot of measurements but when you do them all at once it doesn't take that much time. Only measure one sub. Don't measure them combined. To keep it simple, just move one sub around to all the measurements spots so you dont need to worry about settings or distance issues.

After finding two complimentary locations, you can figure out the best delay settings and do a predicted combined response using the REW alignment tool. It will very accurately predict the combined response. Then you input the delays and verify combined response matches REW. At this point you can present it to YPAO again. After YPAO you can move on to alignment with speakers.

I tried all of the various locations and took measurements but I did not face the rear sub in different directions.

I have never tried the REW alignment tool and don't know how it functions. I will see if I can find directions in a guide.

I wasn't aware that I should run YPAO again once I get them aligned. Do I also filter it with Rew prior to running YPAO again?

Thanks

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

badtlc

· #16 · Jun 11, 2021

kalhua said:
I tried all of the various locations and took measurements but I did not face the rear sub in different directions.

I have never tried the REW alignment tool and don't know how it functions. I will see if I can find directions in a guide.

I wasn't aware that I should run YPAO again once I get them aligned. Do I also filter it with Rew prior to running YPAO again?

Thanks

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

Does your AVR have different sub distance settings for each sub? If so then you would align them after YPAO which of course messes up any EQ it provides.

another way to do it is to connect the 2 subs to the same sub out on the AVR. You then set a delay on one sub and then present the two subs to YPAO as one combined sub.

Also, to correctly use REW for alignments all your sweeps need to use acoustic reference timing.

dpc716

· #17 · Jun 11, 2021

Have you just tried bumping up the sub channel level 3db or so? You mention you have subs set 2db hot, but if you're using the AVR's test tone to determine that, it probably includes very low frequencies which are boosted in your room relative to the ~40hz and up band that comes into play for music. In other words, for music you might not be running your subs hot at all.

I ran my Denon's sub noise tone through the RTA and found it went well below 20 hz.

kalhua

Discussion Starter · #18 · Jun 11, 2021

dpc716 said:
Have you just tried bumping up the sub channel level 3db or so? You mention you have subs set 2db hot, but if you're using the AVR's test tone to determine that, it probably includes very low frequencies which are boosted in your room relative to the ~40hz and up band that comes into play for music. In other words, for music you might not be running your subs hot at all.

I ran my Denon's sub noise tone through the RTA and found it went well below 20 hz.

Yes, I usually adjust using my units test tones. Your point makes sense. I never thought about it that way. I will try bumping it some to see how things sound.

Thanks.

kalhua

Discussion Starter · #19 · Jun 13, 2021

Well, I didn't end up having the time I thought to go through YPAO but I did move the subs around some. In the end I could not find locations that I felt were better measurement wise. I did work in REW in an attempt to adjust my curve. My settings didn't allow boost when I previously ran it as I seem to recall reading that that was not advised. I tried it any and it seemed to smooth out the FR (graphs attached). I watched some clips both flat and with a 4db slope from 50 -100 (I meant to start it at 40). I think they did sound better. I will need to do some more testing and probably tweak the curve some. Are there any guidelines for the curve that outline what a particular one may effect sound wise real world?

I have been considering adding 2 more subs as that was always my plan. Do you think there would be any benefit in my case?

As always any advice is appreciated!

Thanks

See less See more

2

1 - 19 of 19 Posts

This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.