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Discussion Starter #1
hi I just purchased the Bic pl200 and was helping for some set up advice for the onkyo 607 i also have the infinity primus speaker for fronts and center. just curious what settings on the receiver such as crossovers,speaker size.etc ... or should i just let audyssey handle it and not touch anything? also what settings should i use on the amp before running audyssey such as volume crossovers and phase etc... it should be here in a few days and I want to be ready. Man am i stoked I hope its a big difference over my old infinity ps210 sub. Thanks everyone for the help.
 

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Ok first put volume on sub between 40 and 50%. Next run audyssey (note audyssey will always set your mains to large or full band width) you need to change that. I have the 808 and I forget if the 607 just has large and small settings or an actual Xover frequency for each set of speakers. But after audyssey is finished and turned on change the speakers to small and Xover to 80hz to start. Try, listen and see what you like.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
thanks, the 607 has the settings for large or small and crossover settings for the main speakers. when you say to set the speakers to small and change the crossover to

80 is the 80 the crossover in my speakers or the sub? and what should i set my sub to after the test? I think when i ran audyssey with my infinity sub the crossover was automatically set to 120 is that good for the bic pl200? I have a monster sub cable will that give me optimum audio? sorry to sound like a rookie but i kinda am.
 

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Set receiver Xover to 80hz. If sub has Xover either disable it or set it to the highest possible frequency. This will allow your receiver to handle the Xover. And yes set all speakers to small, if you have them set to large your receiver will think they can play full bandwidth 20hz to 20khz. This can damage your speakers and they will distort and not sound good. Bass is omnidirectional about 80 to 100hz and below so you can't tell where its coming from. So let the sub do its job and handle the low bass and your speakers can handle upper bass up thru the treble.
 

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Just saying you have "Infinity Primus" doesn't help...


Are they towers? Are they bookshelves???


The 607 has multiple crossovers...


The lowest you should be able to set the subwoofer is 80hz. You can set the mains to....


Large/40/50/60(and so on), pick the one that represents what your speakers can do...if the large Primus tower...probably 40hz. If bookshelves...80hz.


The Primus line has more than one center, do you have the ridiculously tiny one, or the big one?


It is generally considered a good idea to set the subwoofer at the point of the "highest" crossover of the rest of your speakers...


So if your other 3 x-overs are set 40/60/100....you set the sub at 100. (in your case since you don't mention rears...the other 2 crossovers.)
 

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Most of your questions can be answered in the audyssey set up guide here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...php?p=14456895


There is no subwoofer crossover in the avr, it is actually a low pass filter for the LFE on multichannel soundtracks and should be left at 120hz and not lowered. If set lower that information is simply lost and not re-routed to other speakers. Often the subwoofer distance setting will need some tweaking to get correct phase match between sub and mains.


The receiver sets the crossovers based on the response at the level of the test tones. Often times if you will be listening at higher levels than that it is advised to raise the crossover. 80hz is a good starting place. Only way to really get set up optimally is to take measurements to find best sub and seat placement, best crossover frequency, and best phase match.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
thanks so much, my speakers are primus 162 front left and right and my center is a primus 350 my rears are in wall polk audio rc 65 receiver onkyo 607 and samsung pn58b650 and panny bd35 bluray
 

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According to the Inifinity website the low extension of the 162 is 50hz(but it doesn't say at what -db level)


I would pick whatever sounds best to you between 60-80.


The center says 80hz...so pick 80.


The RC65 claims 32...which I don't really believe...anyway, pick somewhere from 40-80hz.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20819287


According to the Inifinity website the low extension of the 162 is 50hz(but it doesn't say at what -db level)


I would pick whatever sounds best to you between 60-80.


The center says 80hz...so pick 80.


The RC65 claims 32...which I don't really believe...anyway, pick somewhere from 40-80hz.

Do you really think those speakers will have cleaner bass than the sub between 40-80hz? I say find a good spot for sub with smooth response and 80hz all the way around with single 6.5 inch drivers.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
crossover set at 80 all around for L R C and rears ,sounds good.. and I should set the sub on my onkyo 607 at 80 also is that correct? thanks for the help
 

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@ Luke...


The "cleanliness" oh his bass depends on three things...


His speakers.

His location of said speakers.

His power.


And his three things above are unique to him. All we can do is offer suggestions. Maybe his rear in-walls really can get to 40hz. But maybe where he mounted them, after the fact, he finds out 60hz creates a funky sound resonating in a HVAC duct nearby. Maybe his particular sub, cause of its placement, creates a null at 50hz. If his other 5 can create 50hz...they pick up the slack.


Every installation is different, therefor, throwing out "use 80hz it will work" is flawed.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20820455


@ Luke...


The "cleanliness" oh his bass depends on three things...


His speakers.

His location of said speakers.

His power.


And his three things above are unique to him. All we can do is offer suggestions. Maybe his rear in-walls really can get to 40hz. But maybe where he mounted them, after the fact, he finds out 60hz creates a funky sound resonating in a HVAC duct nearby. Maybe his particular sub, cause of its placement, creates a null at 50hz. If his other 5 can create 50hz...they pick up the slack.


Every installation is different, therefor, throwing out "use 80hz it will work" is flawed.

His speakers. 6.5 inch drivers. His subwoofer over 3 times driver surface area and more dedicated power in a larger box. I doubt polk inwalls deliver much for bass. At what output level do you think they came up with -3db point?


His location. Much more leaway in subwoofer location for smooth frequency response.


His power. Onkyo 607 states 90watts/channel, but how much power when running all channels? Not near that. Subwoofer 250watt rms.


In an install you would measure the frequency response and where those limits will be found. I don't think using 80hz in every install is correct, but it is a good starting point in this gentlemens shoes. Crossovers are not brick walls and the speaker should be contributing below its crossover point.
 

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Thanks, but I've been doing subwoofers since David and Goliath, then the next year, the Volkswoofer.


Ever heard of those?


My three home theaters...with the current crossovers...listed front/center/surrounds/heights(if applicable), subwoofer is set at its "minimum" given each receiver up to "matching" the highest crossover of the rest of the set.


Integra DHC 80.2/Sunfire Cinema Grand/Hafler DH500/Waterfall Audio Victoria-Iguascu-Elora/Von Schweikert VR-9S...40/70/50/70

Integra DTR 8.8/OHM Walsh 5 and 3 series I/M&K subwoofer(forget the model, but it is circa 1984-ish)...90/120/110

Denon AVR 4810/Infinity Crescendo 3007(4 of them)/Velodyne DD18...40/60/40


Obviously since I'm not dealing with "wuss equipment", my sentiment "80hz is not the proper crossover in all set-ups" is accurate.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20820819


Thanks, but I've been doing subwoofers since David and Goliath, then the next year, the Volkswoofer.


Ever heard of those?


My three home theaters...with the current crossovers...listed front/center/surrounds/heights(if applicable)


Integra DHC 80.2/Sunfire Cinema Grand/Waterfall Audio Victoria-Iguascu-Elora/Von Schweikert VR-9S...40/70/50/70

Integra DTR 8.8/OHM Walsh 5 and 3 series I/M&K subwoofer(forget the model, but it is circa 1984-ish)...90/120/110

Denon AVR 4810/Infinity Crescendo 3007(4 of them)/Velodyne DD18...40/60/40


Obviously since I'm not dealing with "wuss equipment", my sentiment "80hz is not the proper crossover in all set-ups" is accurate.

What do you measure your frequency response with?
 

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Discussion Starter #15
how do I know when all the speakers are set to the proper crossover? can I rely on audyssey to accurately set all of them ?and if not what is the proper sound I should be getting? thanks for everyones advice.
 

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@ Luke


I measure room response with a properly calibrated SPL meter...or if you don't have one...


Rives makes a CD for sound measurement that is calibrated for a Radio Shack meter(no I don't know off the top of my head which exact meter, but you can go find out real quick with google)


But, I've used AudioSence(is that the right spelling, do they even exist anymore?), Rives(PARC, their box...and their computer software), Antimode 8033(which I don't really like)...and others.


@ JJ


Audyssey(which I'm not a fan of ANY auto correct...no matter what name is on it) in many situations is good enough...and is quite often really close to right. I deal with systems costing from $5000 and up(where $250,000 is not out of the question) and there is better than Audyssey. But in many cases...the "better than Audyssey"(whether done manually like I do it...or from "another program") costs more than your set-up...by itself.


Antimode is better than anything Audyssey brings to the table for subwoofer EQ, google "Antimode 8033". (you could buy two more PL200 for the cost of Antimode, and if you have the room for two more subs...you'd get better results than 1 sub with an Antimode)


Granted, a person spending $250,000 on a theater is...


1. Showing off the equipment(never seen anybody spend that much and hide it)

2. Willing for "proper placement" to be the determining factor of everything

3. Not really willing to have the same "auto correct" you can find in a $400 receiver


I've seen a theater where a guy is using 5 of these...imagine the cost of the stuff backing these up(once you actually read the details)
http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speake...hnologies.html
 

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From audyssey setup guide linked above.


1. Raising the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting does not affect the channel correction implemented by Audyssey.


2. Lowering the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting is not recommended.

a. Audyssey will not provide correction to the satellite speakers lower than the frequency it measures as the -3 dB point.

3. Audyssey recommends that all speakers be set to “Small” (i.e. not Full Band) by selecting a crossover frequency. This will re-direct the frequencies below the crossover point to the subwoofer, resulting in improved headroom for the main amplifier and 8x higher MultEQ filter resolution in the subwoofer channel (e.g. flatter bass).

a. Setting the speakers to “Small” with a 60 Hz – 80 Hz crossover is a good starting point, assuming the post-calibration crossover setting is 60 Hz or lower.


You are using bookshelf speakers and in-walls that won't be as capable of reproducing linear bass as a dedicated subwoofer. Axiom recommeds 80hz cross with their bookshelf speakers and centers.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/sub_setup.html


Here is what audyssey has to say.

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/1080...over-frequency


Here are some threads here to read.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1316027

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990213


This is nothing new and can easily be found. I suggest raising to 80hz with your current speakers. You can try lower if you want and use what you prefer. If you want to know what is actually taking place with frequency response and at what levels speakers compress, distort... then you need to look at measurement gear at the least of spl meter and test tones, preferably something such as Room Eq Wizard, Dayton Omnimic (what I use)... If you aren't measuring you are just guessing.


Good luck, I am done here.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20821017


@ Luke


I measure room response with a properly calibrated SPL meter...

An SPL meter is a fine tool for calibration, (i.e., setting levels using pink noise), but an SPL meter is a woefully inadequate tool to measure frequency response. It will "work" if you have individual frequency test tones, or maybe even 1/3 octave warble tones, but it is extremely tedious and time consuming to do the measurements. If you want to use it for optimizing subwoofer placement, adding acoustic treatments, or implementing a subwoofer EQ, you could spend DAYS or WEEKS screwin' around with it. If you are in fact, as you portray yourself, a custom audio installer, get yourself a proper measurement tool. Either OmniMic or xtz Room Analyzer would be a very cheap and extremely useful tool for you:
http://www.parts-express.com/pe/show...number=390-790
http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/XTZ-Room-Analyzer.html


Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20821017


or if you don't have one...


Rives makes a CD for sound measurement that is calibrated for a Radio Shack meter(no I don't know off the top of my head which exact meter, but you can go find out real quick with google)


But, I've used AudioSence(is that the right spelling, do they even exist anymore?), Rives(PARC, their box...and their computer software), Antimode 8033(which I don't really like)...and others.

I have no idea what "Audiosence" is/was. Tried searching and couldn't find anything. I even tried changing the spelling of "sence" to the more appropriate "sense", and only came up with this:
http://www.tuvie.com/audiosense-xm-e...hensive-music/

A hearing aid?



The Rives PARC *was* a decent system in it's day. However, it was just 2-channel, with 3 bands of cut-only PEQ. The filters were analog, so they had inherent phase shift problems.


The AntiMode 8033 is an EQ. It has a measuring system built in, but you don't get to see the measurements. You can't use it to do any pre-EQ subwoofer optimization, and you need an external measurement system to "see" the result. (See above.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20821017


@ JJ


Audyssey(which I'm not a fan of ANY auto correct...no matter what name is on it) in many situations is good enough...and is quite often really close to right. I deal with systems costing from $5000 and up(where $250,000 is not out of the question) and there is better than Audyssey. But in many cases...the "better than Audyssey"(whether done manually like I do it...or from "another program") costs more than your set-up...by itself.


Antimode is better than anything Audyssey brings to the table for subwoofer EQ, google "Antimode 8033".

Are you familiar with the Audyssey Setup Guide:
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post14456895

If you use Audyssey properly, (and you have the best iteration of Audyssey possible (XT32), in your Integra), you too could have results like this:



Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20821017


(you could buy two more PL200 for the cost of Antimode, and if you have the room for two more subs...you'd get better results than 1 sub with an Antimode)

Agreed about multiple subs. The above measurement was the result of 3 Submersive HP's. Multiple subs will even out the in-room response. However, Audyssey XT32 was the icing on the cake that got the final result above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20821017


Granted, a person spending $250,000 on a theater is...


1. Showing off the equipment(never seen anybody spend that much and hide it)

2. Willing for "proper placement" to be the determining factor of everything

3. Not really willing to have the same "auto correct" you can find in a $400 receiver


I've seen a theater where a guy is using 5 of these...imagine the cost of the stuff backing these up(once you actually read the details)
http://www.bowers-wilkins.com/Speake...hnologies.html

Please tell me you're not using an SPL meter to optimize an $250,000 system, or a system using B&W Nautilus. Even your "glass" speakers deserve better than that.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Luke Kamp /forum/post/20821107


From audyssey setup guide linked above.


1. Raising the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting does not affect the channel correction implemented by Audyssey.


2. Lowering the crossover frequency from the calibrated setting is not recommended.

a. Audyssey will not provide correction to the satellite speakers lower than the frequency it measures as the -3 dB point.

3. Audyssey recommends that all speakers be set to Small (i.e. not Full Band) by selecting a crossover frequency. This will re-direct the frequencies below the crossover point to the subwoofer, resulting in improved headroom for the main amplifier and 8x higher MultEQ filter resolution in the subwoofer channel (e.g. flatter bass).

a. Setting the speakers to Small with a 60 Hz - 80 Hz crossover is a good starting point, assuming the post-calibration crossover setting is 60 Hz or lower.


You are using bookshelf speakers and in-walls that won't be as capable of reproducing linear bass as a dedicated subwoofer. Axiom recommeds 80hz cross with their bookshelf speakers and centers.

http://www.axiomaudio.com/sub_setup.html


Here is what audyssey has to say.

http://ask.audyssey.com/entries/1080...over-frequency


Here are some threads here to read.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1316027

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=990213


This is nothing new and can easily be found. I suggest raising to 80hz with your current speakers. You can try lower if you want and use what you prefer. If you want to know what is actually taking place with frequency response and at what levels speakers compress, distort... then you need to look at measurement gear at the least of spl meter and test tones, preferably something such as Room Eq Wizard, Dayton Omnimic (what I use)... If you aren't measuring you are just guessing.


Good luck, I am done here.

^^^^Great stuff Luke.


I share your frustration though.


Craig
 

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This is the 2nd thread in a row where I have found the same 3 people having a conversation about similar topics...I'm noticing a pattern
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by schan1269 /forum/post/20820819


Obviously since I'm not dealing with "wuss equipment", my sentiment "80hz is not the proper crossover in all set-ups" is accurate.

A speaker's frequency response is *never* measured at the SPL limits of the speaker. It's generally measured at 75 or 85 dB. What do you think happens to the FR if you raise the volume to 100 or 105 dB? Do you think a 6.5" or 8" driver can produce the same -3 dB point at full Reference Level as it does at 85 dB? Not likely. And that is why the crossover should virtually always be set well above the manufacturer's specified -3 dB point.


In addition, many manufacturers don't even specify a -3 dB point. Some manufacturers just specify a LF cutoff point. That cutoff point could be 12 dB below the average response across the rest of the range. In that case, if you use the manufacturers specified "rolloff", you end up with a crossover that is way too low... and a hole in the FR between the speaker(s) and the sub(s).


Audyssey *measures* the in-room response of the speaker at 75 dB and typically recommends a crossover well above that. The exception is on some older units where the manufacturers decided to set any speaker with response below 80 Hz to "Full Range." Audyssey eventually talked them out of this silliness and they now use 40 Hz as the cutoff for "Full Range." (If Audyssey sets the speaker to "Full Range", the best thing to do is to go to the speaker setup menu and select the speaker, then push the "Up" button. This will raise the crossover to the actual Audyssey recommended setting.)


The bottom line is that there are very few speakers that will benefit from a crossover point lower than 80 Hz. My speakers, with dual 10" woofers, are set to 80 Hz crossovers.




If you really want to set lower crossovers, having the ability to measure and see the response is essential.


Craig
 
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