[dhgilmer]

I've got a bit of a dilemma on my hands. I've got around $500 to use on a new sub setup. I've got an BFD and Ep1500 already so the $500 is for subs alone, the building materials are free for this. The main catch is it has to be invisible.


Here are my main two options are a wedge shaped sub to put behind the couch or an IB near the center line of the room. Here is a picture of the layout.

The IB would be 2 FI IB18s and can be placed in the attic anywhere along the line from the main listening position (marked with an x above) and the tv. I'm worried about the volume levels elsewhere in the house with this, especially the nursery behind the tv.


The sealed sub would be a mael-x or mael-21 in a 12 cf box, shaped like a wedge behind the couch. I like this for the extra volume from being closer and extra tactile feel of almost sitting on the sub.


Here are the pros and cons I'm seeing for each setup.

IB 2 FI IB18s

Pros

+ Higher db over all

+ Completely invisible

Cons

- Not flexible to move later on

- Could be very loud for the nursery


Behind couch - Mael-21 (can get for the $500 budget) in a 12 cf sealed

Pros

+ Flexible

+ When we move I can build a bigger ported box and bigger amp to really push it

+ Closer to listening position

Cons

- Not as loud db wise as IB

- Ep1500 barely pushes the potential

- Behind the couch


Thanks for any thoughts and/or advice on this. I know it is a nice problem to have, do I pick a 21" sub or 2 18"s but still it is frustrating to not have a clear choice.

 

[lennon_68]

I say IB all the way. If it's an option it should be the only option

As far as location I would put it about right where you have it, center of the room as close to the TV wall as is reasonable. It will integrate with your mains much better there than any other location (and the FR if placed in the middle of the room would probably be a nightmare).


Reasons:

SQ

Output

Ease of build

SQ (worth listing twice!

)

DISCLAIMER: I'm totally biased toward IB. I went through several DIY subs but the quest ended when I heard the IB the first time!

 

[dhgilmer]



Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 /forum/post/18108261


I say IB all the way. If it's an option it should be the only option

As far as location I would put it about right where you have it, center of the room as close to the TV wall as is reasonable. It will integrate with your mains much better there than any other location (and the FR if placed in the middle of the room would probably be a nightmare).


Reasons:

SQ

Output

Ease of build

SQ (worth listing twice!

)

DISCLAIMER: I'm totally biased toward IB. I went through several DIY subs but the quest ended when I heard the IB the first time!

Where is your IB at? My only reservation about the IB is the backwave being much louder in the nursery via the attic than a traditional sub in the living room would be at the same db levels?

 

[lennon_68]



Quote:
Originally Posted by dhgilmer /forum/post/18108758


Where is your IB at? My only reservation about the IB is the backwave being much louder in the nursery via the attic than a traditional sub in the living room would be at the same db levels?

I have an "outie" IB. It's along the front wall just to the left of the center channel. The backwave goes into an unused basement that's under the living room (that vents into the crawlspace under the rest of the house though). I think the backwave may be an issue for the rest of the house but I wonder how much louder the backwave through the attic into the nursery would be than the front-wave through the wall. I'm thinking since it's an adjoining space the additional leak through from the backwave may be minimal (especially since the insulation between the room and the attic is likely beefier than that between the two rooms). I suppose though since the other option is a nearfield sealed sub the IB would need to be producing more SPL to achieve the same levels at the main listening position... It could certainly be an issue but I vote to go for it. You could probably throw together a manifold in a couple hours, if it doesn't work out just patch the hole in the ceiling, sell off the IB18's and start over (risk is small, reward is huge if it does work out for you

)

 

[charcoal grey]

I have 4 of the FI 18's IB in my dedicated room. The room itself is sealed off from the rest of the house when I close the door. The subs fire thru the ceiling into the room. The backwave enters my attic area, which has blown insulation in it. At normal listening levels I don't have any issues with hearing/feeling the sub anywhere else in my house, which is good since my sons bedroom is on one side of the HT room and the master bedroom is on another. My wife works opposite shifts I do and I watch movies all the time while she sleeps, again at normal levels.


Listening at reference levels is another story. But any subwoofer producing reference levels will be heard or felt elsewhere in the home, or the neighbors home, etc..... The sound quality IB produces in amazing and I would describe it as transparent. The sound blends so well with the rest of the system everyone asks me where the subs are located after listening.

 

[mynym]

That's one bad-ass looking manifold!

 

[dhgilmer]



Quote:
Originally Posted by charcoal grey /forum/post/18110086


I have 4 of the FI 18's IB in my dedicated room. The room itself is sealed off from the rest of the house when I close the door. The subs fire thru the ceiling into the room. The backwave enters my attic area, which has blown insulation in it. At normal listening levels I don't have any issues with hearing/feeling the sub anywhere else in my house, which is good since my sons bedroom is on one side of the HT room and the master bedroom is on another. My wife works opposite shifts I do and I watch movies all the time while she sleeps, again at normal levels.


Listening at reference levels is another story. But any subwoofer producing reference levels will be heard or felt elsewhere in the home, or the neighbors home, etc..... The sound quality IB produces in amazing and I would describe it as transparent. The sound blends so well with the rest of the system everyone asks me where the subs are located after listening.

Thanks for the first hand info, looks like IB is the way to go.


Are you using an ep2500 to power them?

 

[weverb]

If you are going to do only two Fi 18's, the 1500 should be enough power for them. Plus you already have it. When you get into four or more Fi 18's, the 2500/4000 is a must. Or you could purchase another 1500. The 2500/4000 is a small increase over the 1500 and that is why so many just go ahead and purchase them.


Your location looks good, but I would measure a bunch of spots before cutting. I think I measured around 12 different spots before locating my first manifold. When I installed my second, I just mirrored the first. Now I have one manifold with two Fi 18's over each main. They integrate perfectly.

I love charcoal grey's set-up. Very nice!

 

[dhgilmer]



Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb /forum/post/18114145


If you are going to do only two Fi 18's, the 1500 should be enough power for them. Plus you already have it. When you get into four or more Fi 18's, the 2500/4000 is a must. Or you could purchase another 1500. The 2500/4000 is a small increase over the 1500 and that is why so many just go ahead and purchase them.


Your location looks good, but I would measure a bunch of spots before cutting. I think I measured around 12 different spots before locating my first manifold. When I installed my second, I just mirrored the first. Now I have one manifold with two Fi 18's over each main. They integrate perfectly.

I love charcoal grey's set-up. Very nice!

If I'd bought the ep1500 new I would have spent the extra for a 2500 just in case. But I found a mint condition ep1500 and bfd on craigslist locally for a steal. And in the modeling I've done for an IB the 2 FIs should be enough for now......

As for measuring, I have done tons. I spent all day Saturday with REW checking spots in the room for nulls. I'm pretty lucky that the center/front location has one of the better responses in the room.

 

[RyguyOK]

I'm glad to see people are still doing IB's. I've been wanting to make one for several years, but now that I'm getting close to the point where I can, All the interest in Horns and almost no IB threads had almost convinced me to build THT's. I really think I'll regret it if I don't do IB, though....

 

[Wrager]

Make no mistake, that back wave is something to contend with. I had 2 x FI318's in an outie manifold blowing through a false wall into a cavity that was open to my equipment room and stairwell (with a door). It sounded amazing...even 3 stories up (at ref level). Kept my family awake.


I closed up the opening, sealed the wall and went with a DTS-10. It doesn't travel throughout the house nearly as much. When I get the second one, I may be "singing" a different tune. Should have done a room-in a room build. Too late now.

 

[J_Palmer_Cass]



Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 /forum/post/18108856



You could probably throw together a manifold in a couple hours, if it doesn't work out just patch the hole in the ceiling, sell off the IB18's and start over (risk is small, reward is huge if it does work out for you

)

If you have plaster ceilings, then saying "just patch the hole in the ceiling" is easier said than done.


Also, how much heat loss / gain (winter / summer) is there through an attic / ceiling mounted IB setup? A speaker does not have much if any insulating ability. I am not talking air leakage, just heat loss.

 

[lennon_68]



Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/18114639


If you have plaster ceilings, then saying "just patch the hole in the ceiling" is easier said than done.

Didn't really think of that one...

Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/18114639


Also, how much heat loss / gain (winter / summer) is there through an attic / ceiling mounted IB setup? A speaker does not have much if any insulating ability. I am not talking air leakage, just heat loss.

If that's a concern just cover the IB manifold with insulation on the attic side. Shouldn't affect performance and will be effectively the same as if the manifold wasn't there as far as heat loss is concerned.

 

[weverb]



Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/18114639


Also, how much heat loss / gain (winter / summer) is there through an attic / ceiling mounted IB setup? A speaker does not have much if any insulating ability. I am not talking air leakage, just heat loss.

Could always make an insulated plug that you remove when you need to use the ib. I have two openings and feel more difference from the windows in the room versus the manifold openings. I did place insulation on the manifold where there are no drivers, but the 18's still probably let there be some temperature differences.


You could always do the DTS-10 in the attic and have the opening fire through where you planned on placing the ib.

You would probably have to upgrade the 1500 to a 2500/4000 to get the most out of the DTS-10 though.


So many options available when it comes to diy.

 

[lennon_68]



Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb /forum/post/18117289


You could always do the DTS-10 in the attic and have the opening fire through where you planned on placing the ib.

You would probably have to upgrade the 1500 to a 2500/4000 to get the most out of the DTS-10 though.

Problem is that breaks the $500 budget by quite a bit

 

[dhgilmer]



Quote:
Originally Posted by lennon_68 /forum/post/18117387


Problem is that breaks the $500 budget by quite a bit

Yep, I'd gladly give $500 for a dts-10

 

[cmryan821]



Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/18114639


Also, how much heat loss / gain (winter / summer) is there through an attic / ceiling mounted IB setup? A speaker does not have much if any insulating ability. I am not talking air leakage, just heat loss.

I haven't noticed any change for worth mentioning. I still run my ac/heater pretty much the same as I did before.

 

[penngray]



Quote:
Originally Posted by weverb /forum/post/18117289


Could always make an insulated plug that you remove when you need to use the ib. I have two openings and feel more difference from the windows in the room versus the manifold openings. I did place insulation on the manifold where there are no drivers, but the 18's still probably let there be some temperature differences.


You could always do the DTS-10 in the attic and have the opening fire through where you planned on placing the ib.

You would probably have to upgrade the 1500 to a 2500/4000 to get the most out of the DTS-10 though.


So many options available when it comes to diy.

$1500 for the one DTS-10 vs $1500 for 4 18" woofers in any IB design.


I would take the IB design over one DTS-10!!


IMO, its foolish to put a monster DTS in the attic, too much weight, waste of a box....the attic is the box for the IB, its the only reason to ever do anything with an attic.

 

[J_Palmer_Cass]



Quote:
Originally Posted by cmryan821 /forum/post/18117444


I haven't noticed any change for worth mentioning. I still run my ac/heater pretty much the same as I did before.

Yes, but Louisianna is not located where it gets cold!

 

[cmryan821]



Quote:
Originally Posted by J_Palmer_Cass /forum/post/18117569


Yes, but Louisianna is not located where it gets cold!

Indeed.

But in January we did have about two weeks where the temp never climbed above the high 30s and that's crazy cold for us.


Point I was trying to make is that I haven't had any noticeable difference since I've had the manifold installed. Just trying to be helpful.