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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I'd imagine that many others are struggling with the same decision between these two projectors.


I know that very few have seen either one (let alone both), but if we look purely at specs, which one will offer more bang for the buck? Is the HW30 the way to go if you throw on a 16x9 screen and don't need the zoom memory that the Panny provides?


Basically I'm looking for PQ in a pretty much light controlled room, but would like to be able to watch comfortably with some lights on as well.


I've personally been leaning towards the AE7000 because of the fact that I already have 3 pair of Panasonic glasses (1st gen), but I probably shouldn't be factoring my decision on this especially if the street price of the AE7000 comes close to that of the HW30.


Just looking for some opinions for someone who's never seen anything but an LCD projector (I have an Epson HC720, and my friend's that have FP also have LCDs).
 

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I will be watching this thread closely. If I view 3D at all it will be through Directv. I believe the HW30 will work with Directv, but I do not know about the AE7000.
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daniel Hutnicki /forum/post/20798239


I would assume both will be excellent. Typically Lcos is better than LCD

Can you expand on why LCoS is better then LCD. I've tried looking this up, but the only good article I could find was 3 years old



By going with the AE7000, am I essentially giving up some PQ but gaining the brightness and some other features (zoom memory, mechanical focus, etc.)?
 

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Well, I've a Panny ae900 (720p) and a Sony HW15 (LCoS 1080p), as well as owning others such as DLP and JVC.


LCD is history IMHO; Panny's and Epson's contrast are highly inflated. Though I've never seen the ae7000, I did own a Sanyo z4000. There is just no comparison between the Sanyo and the Sony, e.g., brightness, contrast, depth, etc. (cost about 50% more).


You do get what you paid for, usually. At this time, looks like the Sony HW30es is a great value over the JVC camp. Not sure about JVC's quality ever since its manufactured in China. I did enjoy my RS1 and RS2 (still better contrast than my HW15).


BTW, let the dust settle first before you jump into a new pj, regardless of brand.


Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 /forum/post/20801521


I predict a win for Sony due to contrast and best mode lumen output, but the Panny should be a good projector.

Why would the Sony have better lumen output? Isn't it rated at 1300, while the Panny is at 2000?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie10k /forum/post/20798437


2 concerns about the panasonic... non-sealed light path & dust blobs. My Mitsubishi LCD had these all the time despite trying to keep the filters clean.

Agreed and this is one reason why I will never consider a projector without a sealed light path. Also, I have yet to see a LCD projector that can compete with a LCOS from a picture quality standpoint.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs /forum/post/20801527


Why would the Sony have better lumen output? Isn't it rated at 1300, while the Panny is at 2000?

He say in best mode. Thats mean when both calibrated at d65, the Sony should be brigther than the Panasonic.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac /forum/post/20801570


He say in best mode. Thats mean when both calibrated at d65, the Sony should be brigther than the Panasonic.

I guess I've never quite understood what "best" mode is. So are people thinking that the Sony will throw a brighter 3D image if ISF calibrated, but the Panasonic out of the box?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mjg100 /forum/post/20801521


I predict a win for Sony due to contrast and best mode lumen output, but the Panny should be a good projector.
Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs /forum/post/20801527


Why would the Sony have better lumen output? Isn't it rated at 1300, while the Panny is at 2000?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew P /forum/post/20801555


Agreed and this is one reason why I will never consider a projector without a sealed light path. Also, I have yet to see a LCD projector that can compete with a LCOS from a picture quality standpoint.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RickAVManiac /forum/post/20801570


He say in best mode. Thats mean when both calibrated at d65, the Sony should be brigther than the Panasonic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs /forum/post/20801581


I guess I've never quite understood what "best" mode is. So are people thinking that the Sony will throw a brighter 3D image if ISF calibrated, but the Panasonic out of the box?

As for contrast, remember this Sony model is using the lower contrast line of SXRD panels (LCoS) which only have a native contrast ratio (CR) similar (somewhere around 5,000:1) to what projectors using Epson's D7 LCD panels have, and the new Panasonic is using the Epson D9 panels which are probably at least as good in terms of native CR as the D7 panels. The actual, usable dynamic CR with either projector will be much less than what the manufacturers claim when dynamic iris is being used. LCoS projectors using higher end LCoS chips (Sony VW90ES, or any of the current JVC models) have a superior native CR of 20,000:1 or a little higher with their iris fully open and these will should provide more shadow details and better usable black levels than either the AE7000 or the HW30.


As for lumens output, all manufacturers numbers are for what is the max. output that can be provided in any possible mode. Both Panasonic and Epson offer a high output mode that it is not really useful for any serious viewing, but it allows them to claim a very high lumens. However, once these projectors are either placed into one of the more accurate preset modes or is actually calibrated to provide video at the D65 standard, their light output can drop down to perhaps only 25% to 35% of the claimed lumens value. Even manufacturers such as Sony and JVC also do this, but their actual lumens in an accurate mode may still be as much as 60% to 70% of the advertised lumens.


Of course looking at earlier models can only get you so far, therefore you should wait for a direct comparison of the new AE7000 vs. HW30ES before deciding. Also by this time next month (CEDIA Expo) we should know what new models are coming from JVC, Epson, ? I expect we will see quite a few 3D ready 1080p projectors with street prices in the $3K price range begin shipping between now and the end of the year.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Jones /forum/post/20801781


As for contrast, remember this Sony model is using the lower contrast line of SXRD panels (LCoS) which only have a native contrast ratio (CR) similar (somewhere around 5,000:1) to what projectors using Epson's D7 LCD panels have, and the new Panasonic is using the Epson D9 panels which are probably at least as good in terms of native CR as the D7 panels. The actual, usable dynamic CR with either projector will be much less than what the manufacturers claim when dynamic iris is being used. LCoS projectors using higher end LCoS chips (Sony VW90ES, or any of the current JVC models) have a superior native CR of 20,000:1 or a little higher with their iris fully open and these will should provide more shadow details and better usable black levels than either the AE7000 or the HW30.


As for lumens output, all manufacturers numbers are for what is the max. output that can be provided in any possible mode. Both Panasonic and Epson offer a high output mode that it not really useful for any serious viewing, but it allows then to claim a very high lumens. However, once these projectors are either placed into one of the more accurate preset modes or is actually calibrated to provide video at the D65 standard, their light output can drop down to perhaps only 25% to 35% of the claimed lumens value. Even manufacturers such as Sony and JVC also do this, but their actual lumens in an accurate mode may still be as much as 60% to 70% of the advertised lumens.

So if I'm reading this correctly, what you are saying is that Panny/Epson and Sony/JVC have very comparable (if not better) lumen output when using modes that are watchable for 2D sources.


Now the question is, will the lumen difference, between the Panasonic and Sony, of 700 be used to compensate for the general lack of brightness for 3D? And will this cause the AE7000 to yield a better 3D experience then the HW30.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs /forum/post/20801840


So if I'm reading this correctly, what you are saying is that Panny/Epson and Sony/JVC have very comparable (if not better) lumen output when using modes that are watchable for 2D sources.


Now the question is, will the lumen difference, between the Panasonic and Sony, of 700 be used to compensate for the general lack of brightness for 3D? And will this cause the AE7000 to yield a better 3D experience then the HW30.

We already have a first set of test results for the Sony HW30ES thanks to the published review by www.cine4home.de (in German). The lumens in 3D mode and measured thru the 3D glasses turned out to be similar to the Sony VW90 and also to the JVC X3 (between 150 and 200 lumens) and near 900 lumens were measured for the HW30ES in 2D mode (i.e., and without the 3D glasses). We do not yet have any lumens measurements for the new Panasonic either for 2D or 3D. My statements were more related to how Panasonic and Epson have both substantially overstated the actual usable lumens for their previous models and you cannot use their advertised lumens output for comparison to projectors from other manufacturers, such as Sony or JVC. I currently have two 1080p projectors. One is an Epson advertised at 1800 lumens that actually puts out about 600 lumens in an accurate mode and the other is a JVC advertised at 1300 lumens that actually puts out over 800 lumens in an accurate mode. The current AE4000 was advertised at 1600 lumens and Projector
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs /forum/post/20801840


So if I'm reading this correctly, what you are saying is that Panny/Epson and Sony/JVC have very comparable (if not better) lumen output when using modes that are watchable for 2D sources.


Now the question is, will the lumen difference, between the Panasonic and Sony, of 700 be used to compensate for the general lack of brightness for 3D? And will this cause the AE7000 to yield a better 3D experience then the HW30.

If I remember correctly: the old Panasonic (AE4000) has a spec of 1600 lumens, but only puts out a calibrated picture of about 400 or so lumens.


The old Sony (HW20) has a spec 1300 and give around 900 after calibration.


The reason why the lumens output drops so significantly is that the color from the lamp doesn't reflect what is needed. There are 3 colors; red green and blue. Typically the the lamps are low on red. Thus you need to lower the output on green and blue to get good color. This will eat away A LOT of light, but the alternative is to have a picture that is way to blue and with garish colors. Sony and JVC have traditionally had much better color balances OOTB and have thus subsequently lost less brightness after calibration.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by browerjs /forum/post/20798282


Can you expand on why LCoS is better then LCD. I've tried looking this up, but the only good article I could find was 3 years old



By going with the AE7000, am I essentially giving up some PQ but gaining the brightness and some other features (zoom memory, mechanical focus, etc.)?

We'll have to wait and see how the Panny performs, but typically, LCos offers better contrast performance, better color, and better grayscale uniformity.


If Panny does something special to offer superior 3D performance, it may well win some customers. But for raw 2d performance, I would think the Sony will be superior.


However... I have to admit, in many ways the projectors could be so close one has to split hairs to pick a winner.


I hope Panny pushes the edge so the other manufactures have to kick it up a notch.
 

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All speculation so far...

I'm not sure about LCOS having typically better grayscale uniformity, most of the recent LCD's have done well here after calibration. Sure some LCOS do much better here in calibrations than some LCD's, but some LCOS also do much worse. Just depends on the unit. Most LCOS definitely have better contrast, that's a fact, but we don't know enough about the Panny yet since trying to compare it to a Sony that is a lower-end LCOS model.


Native contrast also varies between MFR models even when using the same panels. Epsons have typically done better native contrast in BEST MODE even when using the same panels as competitors (Epson better at both native and dynamic).


That said, it's anyone's guess as to a NEW low-end Sony LCOS vs. a NEW Panny LCD using D9 panels, but I'm also betting on the Sony, but who knows.


It's impossible to know until someone measures it accurately, there could be a huge difference in contrast with the D9 panels, and since the Panny 7000 is Panny's first model in 2 years and has 3D, the results are even more speculative.


Cine4home publishes native contrast numbers on a lot of their reviews.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by coderguy /forum/post/20812389


All speculation so far...

I'm not sure about LCOS having typically better grayscale uniformity, most of the recent LCD's have done well here after calibration. Sure some LCOS do much better here in calibrations than some LCD's, but some LCOS also do much worse. Just depends on the unit. Most LCOS definitely have better contrast, that's a fact, but we don't know enough about the Panny yet since trying to compare it to a Sony that is a lower-end LCOS model.


Native contrast also varies between MFR models even when using the same panels. Epsons have typically done better native contrast in BEST MODE even when using the same panels as competitors (Epson better at both native and dynamic).


That said, it's anyone's guess as to a NEW low-end Sony LCOS vs. a NEW Panny LCD using D9 panels, but I'm also betting on the Sony, but who knows.


It's impossible to know until someone measures it accurately, there could be a huge difference in contrast with the D9 panels, and since the Panny 7000 is Panny's first model in 2 years and has 3D, the results are even more speculative.


Cine4home publishes native contrast numbers on a lot of their reviews.

I tend to agree that the Sony is probably going to come out ahead and be a better value (assuming the Panny isn't 500 cheaper then the AES)... Right now it seems to me that the major drawback to the Sony is the glasses and the fact that the XPands do not work...


I'm really looking forward to the ProjectorCentral shootout, only a few more days to wait!
 
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