ALERT-All Panamorph pre-buy customers see this thread NOW!
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I am going to make a call to confirm this! Maybe a small contribution from all of us can speed things up - time is money so let's be prepared to make this happen! All the Panamorphs are there and ready to go once paid for? We can do this! At least it's worth a try!
Cheers,
Grant
Cheers,
Grant
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But we have already paid. I assume there is no money for Shawn to pay him. Should we pay twice 
Well, the amount due (if the post is true) per lens is going to be much less than what Shawn charges for the lens. It will be just "cost", maybe only a part of "cost". Maybe Shawn already paid for the materials. Anyone care to find out how much they're owed per lens? Let's say it's $300. Any prebuyer should be able to send him $300, and get their lens. Then if Shawn comes through and sells more, he gives us back our $300.
Is this possible? Any thoughts? Dan, have you spoken to him yet?
Mike
Is this possible? Any thoughts? Dan, have you spoken to him yet?
Mike
Mike, no I haven't spoken with him yet because Grant Smythe said he was going to and post back in one of these threads.
I don't mind putting in more money, but I do think if we have to go that way everyone should end up paying the same for the lens. Now the situation is totally changed, all prebuy prices should be equalized. That means if you prebought at $995 and that is the final figure, you pay nothing. Conversely, if you prebought at $600 the payment would be higher. I am in at $850 BTW.
The thinking being if cost is around $1000 and we have to put in enough money to get it up to cost, everyone should be paying cost. This is my opinion alone at this point.
Dan
I don't mind putting in more money, but I do think if we have to go that way everyone should end up paying the same for the lens. Now the situation is totally changed, all prebuy prices should be equalized. That means if you prebought at $995 and that is the final figure, you pay nothing. Conversely, if you prebought at $600 the payment would be higher. I am in at $850 BTW.
The thinking being if cost is around $1000 and we have to put in enough money to get it up to cost, everyone should be paying cost. This is my opinion alone at this point.
Dan
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Oops, that's right, Grant said he was going to call.
I also sent him (Donald) e-mail.
I don't know if I like your suggestion of having different costs depending on which prebuy you were in. First of all, I'm sure the manufacturer doesn't care what we paid Shawn. If he's willing to ship us a lens for a cost, I'm sure it will be the same cost for everybody. We can't expect him to ship lenses to people for less than what he's owed, and we can't expect Shawn to put up the difference at this point.
And even from a "fairness" point of view (who says life is fair? ) the people in the first prebuy have been screwed the most, as they've had to wait the longest.
But practically speaking, the only one who could even out the prebuy costs would be Shawn, and obviously we can't expect cash from him now.
Mike
| Originally posted by DanHouck Mike, no I haven't spoken with him yet because Grant Smythe said he was going to and post back in one of these threads. I don't mind putting in more money, but I do think if we have to go that way everyone should end up paying the same for the lens. Now the situation is totally changed, all prebuy prices should be equalized. That means if you prebought at $995 and that is the final figure, you pay nothing. Conversely, if you prebought at $600 the payment would be higher. I am in at $850 BTW. The thinking being if cost is around $1000 and we have to put in enough money to get it up to cost, everyone should be paying cost. This is my opinion alone at this point. |
I also sent him (Donald) e-mail.
I don't know if I like your suggestion of having different costs depending on which prebuy you were in. First of all, I'm sure the manufacturer doesn't care what we paid Shawn. If he's willing to ship us a lens for a cost, I'm sure it will be the same cost for everybody. We can't expect him to ship lenses to people for less than what he's owed, and we can't expect Shawn to put up the difference at this point.
And even from a "fairness" point of view (who says life is fair?
) the people in the first prebuy have been screwed the most, as they've had to wait the longest.But practically speaking, the only one who could even out the prebuy costs would be Shawn, and obviously we can't expect cash from him now.
Mike
I don't think it wold be legal for MICHAEL TOOL & MFG to sell the lens directly. They don't own rights to the product. But, it's great to know that someone close to the situation and directly involved like Donald Michael thinks the situation will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction in the not to distant future.
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OK, I see.
The way I'm thinking about it is that if we can get our lens for some reasonable $delta, then we're doing much better than we are right now. Than we can try to get our $delta from Shawn. But even if that falls apart, we'll at least all have a Panamorph for $prebuy + $delta, which I think a lot of people would take at this point!!! *Especially* if they knew that *none* of $delta was going to Cygnus...
Mike
| Originally posted by DanHouck OK, Mike, I need to make it clear I was thinking in terms of a situation which INCLUDED Cygnus. Obviously if we're in effect buying the lens again , my comments didn't apply. |
The way I'm thinking about it is that if we can get our lens for some reasonable $delta, then we're doing much better than we are right now. Than we can try to get our $delta from Shawn. But even if that falls apart, we'll at least all have a Panamorph for $prebuy + $delta, which I think a lot of people would take at this point!!! *Especially* if they knew that *none* of $delta was going to Cygnus...
Mike
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But, ... It is, isn't it. You are, in effect, talking about relieving Shawn of his debt. That's giving him the money, albeit indirectly. Sure, you can say that he now owes you the $300, but how are you going to legally enforce that? Seems like a pretty messy arrangement, if you ask me.
I think everyone just needs to sit tight for a little while. Right now, Shawn owes us our lenses (or a refund). DONALD MICHAEL has the lenses. If Shawn doesn't produce, he'll have to go chapter 11. Maybe at that point we can talk about buying them from Michael Mfg. But, it seems premature to talk about muddying the waters by putting more money into the mix.
- Dave
| Originally posted by mflaster *Especially* if they knew that *none* of $delta was going to Cygnus... |
I think everyone just needs to sit tight for a little while. Right now, Shawn owes us our lenses (or a refund). DONALD MICHAEL has the lenses. If Shawn doesn't produce, he'll have to go chapter 11. Maybe at that point we can talk about buying them from Michael Mfg. But, it seems premature to talk about muddying the waters by putting more money into the mix.
- Dave
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I agree that it's messier. But I might prefer to have my lens for $300 more, and have a more complicated claim to go after Shawn for, than to not have my lens, and to have a nice clear-cut case to go after Shawn for.
Although your idea of waiting a bit and *then* trying what I'm suggesting certainly sounds good.
Mike
| Originally posted by Dave T But, ... It is, isn't it. You are, in effect, talking about relieving Shawn of his debt. That's giving him the money, albeit indirectly. Sure, you can say that he now owes you the $300, but how are you going to legally enforce that? Seems like a pretty messy arrangement, if you ask me. |
Although your idea of waiting a bit and *then* trying what I'm suggesting certainly sounds good.
Mike
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I do not think it is a silly idea if you want some fast closure to this. But you need Jeff who is within 5 miles of Cygnus to negotiate what Shawn needs to get the Panamorphs shipped. If you use Jeff to negotiate and Michael who is the manufacturer to hold the money with the names of the people who paid the top up. You will obviously get a Panamorph pretty quickly as they are machined and Michael wants to get paid and I am sure Shawn wants this to be over.
Lawyers and such will only drag this on and the Lawyers will get fat and you will get nothing to very little.
Just ask Jeff to talk to Shawn and Michael because he said he would do this. 5 miles ain't a long way to go to sort out a speedy resolution.
DavidW
Lawyers and such will only drag this on and the Lawyers will get fat and you will get nothing to very little.
Just ask Jeff to talk to Shawn and Michael because he said he would do this. 5 miles ain't a long way to go to sort out a speedy resolution.
DavidW
I posted this on the other thread, but I'll repeat it here.
If you read what Michael Tool is telling us, and look at how many Panamorphs have actually been shipped, it is quite possible that Michael tool has been paid little, if at all, for the Panamorphs that have already shipped, and obviously paid nothing for the ones he has. Hence, this means ALL the money is gone and was probably gone before any significant number of lenses were shipped.
So we're not talking about a few hundred bucks here, we're basically talking about the full cost to manufacture and ship.
My guess is that figure is at least $1000. That would mean I'd have to pay nearly two grand to get this lens. This is exactly why these guys are hiding out and trying to get out of this by putting a very high price on the lens and, in effect, operating a Ponzi scheme to try and deliver the pre-buys.
It doesn't hurt to talk (we're still waiting for them to do so, aren't we?) but don't be surprised if the number required for any of to get a lens is very high.
Dan
If you read what Michael Tool is telling us, and look at how many Panamorphs have actually been shipped, it is quite possible that Michael tool has been paid little, if at all, for the Panamorphs that have already shipped, and obviously paid nothing for the ones he has. Hence, this means ALL the money is gone and was probably gone before any significant number of lenses were shipped.
So we're not talking about a few hundred bucks here, we're basically talking about the full cost to manufacture and ship.
My guess is that figure is at least $1000. That would mean I'd have to pay nearly two grand to get this lens. This is exactly why these guys are hiding out and trying to get out of this by putting a very high price on the lens and, in effect, operating a Ponzi scheme to try and deliver the pre-buys.
It doesn't hurt to talk (we're still waiting for them to do so, aren't we?) but don't be surprised if the number required for any of to get a lens is very high.
Dan
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i'm not in this panny drama at all. but it would be very legal for Michael Tool to sell the lens directly if Shawn defaults on his contract terms, which we don't know, but it seems like the other thread was saying the 1st of next year?
i don't know the specifics of the contract, but it could be the pieces are liquidated damages, of if need be then a judgment for damages, which can be satisfied by selling off the lenses (or something like that, been a long time since 1st year contract class)
| Originally posted by JoeFloyd I don't think it wold be legal for MICHAEL TOOL & MFG to sell the lens directly. They don't own rights to the product. But, it's great to know that someone close to the situation and directly involved like Donald Michael thinks the situation will be resolved to everyone's satisfaction in the not to distant future. |
i don't know the specifics of the contract, but it could be the pieces are liquidated damages, of if need be then a judgment for damages, which can be satisfied by selling off the lenses (or something like that, been a long time since 1st year contract class)
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