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All Done!! First Impressions...

1176 Views 26 Replies 5 Participants Last post by  SteveCallas, 
T
Well I have completed the sonotube yesterday. Many thanks to Steve C. and Exocer for your help! I gave my camera to my parents for their vacation so I cannot post pics until end of this week. Will do though.


Sub:

Titanic MKIII

Mackie 1400i

310L

8" wide 35.56 " long port

24" sonotube

almost 4 feet long

The sub is not standing it is horizontal


Rest of Equipment :

Panny SA - XR45 Receiver

Klipsch Cornwall fronts (set to small, x-over 100hz)


First Impressions:

I must say that I am a little disapointed. Although I am pleasantly surprised on how tight and precise the bass is (I never thought such a large enclosure and port could sound so tight, who would even want to go sealed with a DIY sub when they could do a LLT!!!), it just does not seem to be very loud or very low...


At soft listening levels I don't even hear it, but my mains are set to small so it does not sound very good. There is a total lack of mid and low bass. When I crank the vol up a little, the bass is much improved and during music is very nice, not that low, but very accurate. Once again this is just at higher vol levels.


When I watched some scenes from various movies, same thing at lower levels I can't hear much bass, so it is as if I only have the highs playing because even the mids are not very "present". when I crank up the volume, to a level I consider something like theatre, you know a little louder than what your family would accept if they were not watching the movie with you, the bass is there, it is tight, but it does not make me rumble and is not low enough. Not even close. My old sub, which was another DIY with a much, much cheaper driver and more than half less power would go lower, but its problem was that it bottom out very fast... So that is what I am using to compare.


I even had the LFE output to MAX, and the Mackie1400i almost at max gain, bridged!!!! I am scared I hooked something up wrong or something. The specs on the Mackie are 1400 W rms 4 ohms when bridged. the MKIII only takes 800 rms, so I must be doing somehting wrong because shouldn't the sub bottom out at high bass scenes in movies if I am pushing it with almost all 1400W??


I doubled checked all my wires, the tube is sealed tight, what did I do wrong!!! I know my walls won't shake, but even my old crappy 150W sub went lower. The thing is though, the bass sounds so nice and accurate... Just not low enough. Oh and there is barely any air coming out of the port... Is this normal as well??
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T
I just tried to hook up my old sub with the mackie just to see the difference. The sub plays much louder than the MKIII. Can it be that because I used some glue around the binding posts to make sure they did not rattle out or anything, this diminishes the signal or somehitng...
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W
Something is definitely wrong...


If you had the LFE output o Max and the Mackie at max gain/bridged, and you still aren't pushing the Sonosub much, then it sounds like you need one of these;
http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=245-868


Another Panny XR series user got one for his sub and experienced much better bass:
http://www.htguide.com/forum/showthread.php4?t=22546


Does your other DIY sub have its own plate amp? If so, that would explain why it is louder than this one...it isn't using the Mackie, which doesn't like the output voltage of your XR-45. The Art CleanBox would fix that.


Also, I might would drop the xo to 80Hz, but right now that obviously isn't the problem.


And barely any air coming out of the port is technically normal. Afterall, you are using an 8" daimeter port. Once you fix the output problem, you most likely still wont experience much air from the port...so don't worry too much about that.
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J
You probly do need a clean box. If you play some low hz shine waves(like 20hz or lower ) you will feel some air moving in the port. But with an 8" it will be less then my 6" which realy moves the air at lower hz.
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P
I had the exact same problem with my tc-2000 15", what fixed it was placing my sub on +8 on my reciever, huge improvement it scares me now, im pretty sure I make a small child wet his pants the other night.
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SteveCallas
Yes, something is wrong. I don't think a clean box is the problem, because:

Quote:
I just tried to hook up my old sub with the mackie just to see the difference. The sub plays much louder than the MKIII
Things to check:


Driver is wired correctly

Enclosure is air tight (aside from the port of course)

Lightly put a finger on the driver while it is playing, make sure it is moving

Make sure the Mackie is being used correctly - no 30hz highpass, bridged correctly, etc.

Calibrate your subwoofer

Take a FR measurement at the seat
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T
Thanks for the suggestions.


I will just clear some things.


The sub still plays pretty loud. I simply expected it to go lower. It does sound better in different places, it is a huge sonosub so I put it on wheels to be able to move it whenever I want.


The cone moves fine and as it should. The connections were verified and all is good. The enclosure is definately air tight! I am letting it break in at the moment... When designing it I was only supposed to push it with something like 475 W... Now the mackie is bridged and it seems it could even take more if I wanted...


The filters are all correct, well, they are just not on!! I simply put the "low-cut" to just above the min 10hz...


I would love to do a test, but I do not own an SPL meter. I will try to get one, never really had any use for one before.


Steve, when you mention calibrate the subwoofer, what do you mean by that?? I don't have any type of bass management software or anything like that. I can only adjust the X-over, the Sub output level, the bass, and the gain on Mackie.
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Quote:
I would love to do a test, but I do not own an SPL meter. I will try to get one, never really had any use for one before.
Uh..pretty much every HT enthusiast should own a SPL meter. How else will you correctly set the levels on your speakers/sub?
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SteveCallas
Hmm, somewhat off topic, but why are you powering this sub with 1400 watts?


What was the tuning supposed to be? Calibrating the sub means setting it to play at the same level as your speakers, and all in turn should be calibrated to reference level. Since you are laying this sub down sideways, where is it in room and in which direction does the driver fire? How exactly are you wiring the driver?



Something is definitely wrong, I predict it will take us about a page and a half to get this resolved :D
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T
HAHA!! The two last posts made me laugh equally.

Quote:
Uh..pretty much every HT enthusiast should own a SPL meter. How else will you correctly set the levels on your speakers/sub?
Well... My HT up until now was always sort of a work in progress and I have, just recently converted my basement into a HT which "deserves" proper equipment and calibrating. In the past I just used to go by ear and tend to play things the way I thought I liked. My old DIY sub just bottomed out to early though especially during movies.

Quote:
Hmm, somewhat off topic, but why are you powering this sub with 1400 watts?
That is pretty much my major problem here!! I shouldn't need all this power to hear decent bass from this monster! That wasn't the way it was graphed in WinISD, but then again I have nothing to measure output for the moment so maybe the sub just is not satisfactory to MY ears... Maybe I got all hyped out with all the discussion about LLTs going around.


At the moment the speakers are calibrated with the receiver adjustments, such as speaker distance and test signals (which are adjusted to a level I tend to prefer). For example, my rears speakers probably sound a little louder than what most people like.


The sub isn't really lying down, it is still elevated quite a bit, the center of the cone is about 2 feet from the floor. I have placed the sub all over the place! With the cone facing me, facing a side wall, in a corner, behind me, next to me. The sub is wired 4ohms tot he bridged mode of the amp. The amp is set in bridged mode and the gain is set just a little more than 3/4.
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SteveCallas
Quote:
That wasn't the way it was graphed in WinISD, but then again I have nothing to measure output for the moment so maybe the sub just is not satisfactory to MY ears... Maybe I got all hyped out with all the discussion about LLTs going around.
I don't think this is the case. Situations like what you are describing are common - eventually the problem is figured out and then shazam, instant powerful bass and a big smiley face from the user. We just gotta figure out the problem.

Quote:
The sub is wired 4ohms tot he bridged mode of the amp
Believe me, I'm not trying to insult your intelligence or anything like that, but how did you actually wire the driver? As in the binding posts are going to which driver leads? Might be worth it to take out the driver just to make sure.


What driver was the old sub using, and what was that design like?
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T
Oh... I am using these : http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/pshow...umber=091-1245 with these : http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/showd...number=091-334


I already took the sub out just to make sure, the wires are good!


My old sub is not something to be proud of, it is a 3' X 2' X 2' box with plenty of bracing and 150 W RMS plate amp made with the help of an old school speaker builder, so 3/4 plywood all around. The driver you ask... Well... here it is, by the way all the specs there is are the one on the web page!! https://www.addison-electronique.com...557beb089d3df2


Don't get me wrong the sub sounds good, tighter than I ever imagined, it just doesn't seem to go low enough. Almost like there is too much space for the driver or something, difficult to explain.


By the way, my basement is about 700 square feet with my HT at one end of the basement and no walls to seperate. Pretty much a large rectangle.

'
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Quote:
Don't get me wrong the sub sounds good, tighter than I ever imagined, it just doesn't seem to go low enough. Almost like there is too much space for the driver or something, difficult to explain.
Statements like this lead me to believe that you aren't used to a flatter FR in the subwoofer range, and this Titanic sonosub lacks the "boominess" that you might have thought was "low bass".


Just a theory though.


You said you tried hooking your other sub up to the mackie...did you just remove the plateamp, hook it up without chaning any settings on the mackie, and let 'er rip?


However...

Quote:
Yes, something is wrong. I don't think a clean box is the problem, because:
Check out the driver he was using...97db @ 1W/1m efficiency. Huuuuge difference. That would explain why he was getting much more output out of it, compared to the Titanic.


Hence why I still believe a cleanbox might fix this issue. ;)
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T
Well I lowered the gain setting a little at first then gradually put it back up until it couldn't take anymore.


You might be right on the boominess... But I really like how accurate the bass is, listening to some of my favorite cds I notice a difference, but when there are parts of a song with a low tone at roughly the same output level on my receiver, I seemed to "feel" the base a little more. It's not like my new sub is crap or anything li3ke that. I just figured it would be significantly better, not to mention louder, I am pushing it with the Mackie 3/4 full power bridged!!
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T
I just noticed somehting else!


I am now listening to a song with plenty of bass and I am about 15 feet away, not even directly facing the driver. I am facing the wall, and it is really nice deep sound now!!


Can it be that my room is that bad for accoustics??? My seating place is facing the driver about 4 feet away and it does even sound half lower than the unsual place I am in at the moment.

Quote:
97db @ 1W/1m efficiency. Huuuuge difference.
I thought a speaker like that would be horrible for low extension type of sub... That is why I thought the Titanic woul;d be significantly better.


I have to find a way to reproduce the soud that I am hearing now, to my seating position...
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SteveCallas
Quote:
Oh... I am using these : http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/psho...number=091-1245 with these : http://www.partsexpress.com/pe/show...tnumber=091-334


I already took the sub out just to make sure, the wires are good!
So it's just a single voice coil driver - just one pair of leads on it?

Quote:
The driver you ask... Well... here it is
That explains a lot :p You're old sub probably produced a huge hump in the 50-100hz region without much below that. You're expectations are now probably skewed towards boomy bass that is kind of one noted I would imagine.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Willd
Statements like this lead me to believe that you aren't used to a flatter FR in the subwoofer range, and this Titanic sonosub lacks the "boominess" that you might have thought was "low bass".
Yep.


Try watching the scene in War of the Worlds where the pods come out of the ground on your old sub and then again on your new sub - if there isn't a profound difference, with the new sub going much lower and being more violent, then something is wrong with it. Also, right after that, the scene where it starts shooting its lasers.

Quote:
Check out the driver he was using...97db @ 1W/1m efficiency. Huuuuge difference. That would explain why he was getting much more output out of it, compared to the Titanic.
True, but that sub is only gonna be opreating from about 50hz on up I would imagine. The Titanic isn't a slouch at 91db sensitivity. He really needs an spl meter so we can better determine what's going on.
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SteveCallas
Here's an idea. Your previous sub was extremely sensitive - you mentioned your Mackie is at 3/4, which doesn't really means anything. Did you adjust your sub channel level from your receiver, or did you keep it the same? If you kept it the same, the level will be way too low. Try bumping up your sub channel level about 6db.

Quote:
Can it be that my room is that bad for accoustics???
Perhaps, you need an spl meter to see what your FR is.

Quote:
I thought a speaker like that would be horrible for low extension type of sub
It is. Again, I highly doubt you're getting much below 50hz with it.

Quote:
That is why I thought the Titanic woul;d be significantly better.
It is.
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T
Thanks for reassuring me Steve.


I will purchase an SPL meter and do some better testing.

Quote:
That explains a lot You're old sub probably produced a huge hump in the 50-100hz region without much below that. You're expectations are now probably skewed towards boomy bass that is kind of one noted I would imagine.
Quote:
It is. Again, I highly doubt you're getting much below 50hz with it.
Makes alot of sense. I built this sub exactly to remedy this. My whole point was to get better output in the very low tones.


I will pop in WOW and check it out. I have actually never watched that movie because I was waiting for this sub to be finished!


I will try placing it in the corner of my room. I have to move the couch though.
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W
Quote:
It is. Again, I highly doubt you're getting much below 50hz with it.
Is it a sealed or vented sub? I assume sealed....
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SteveCallas
TFM, what are your receiver channel levels set at for your mains and your sub?
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