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This is not good news for current HDTV owners. I have contacted Toshiba for their stance on this, they stated they will have these sets NEXT year, and will get back to me on upgradability of current sets. Texts>
 

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Quote:
...Last week, Sony Pictures and Warner Bros. reached an agreement with a consortium of tech companies referred to as the 5Cs to encrypt content sent over digital cable...
So why worry if I don't have cable?


Kei Clark
 

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This article's message is very unclear.

Quote:
The five studios now need to work with the 5Cs

It doesn't really say in black and white whether these 5 additional studios signed on with 5C or not, although it implies it.

 

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I'm looking into buying one of the new Toshiba HX81 sets. I'd be interested in knowing what Toshiba says about the possibility of upgrading.



Thanks,


Lafe
 

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You'd think the setmakers would be doin' some talkin' about futureproofing/upgradability to ease the concerns of those of us who have already invested huge sums in HDTV, not to mention the concerns of would-be purchasers of HDTV equipment. The silence of everyone except Mitsubishi is deafening.


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HiDefDave
 

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Out of curiosity, wouldn't an upgrade like this be more in the set-top box than in the TV? I would think the TV simply accepts whatever signal is coming from the box. I can't see these companies abandoning component and VGA very quickly. That's a poor way to lose all your current early adopters.


Remember, DiVX didn't work either, and that was touted as the next best thing to DVD.


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Michael Mullis

Director of US Operations

Next Level Gaming
http://www.nlgaming.com
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael Mullis:
Out of curiosity, wouldn't an upgrade like this be more in the set-top box than in the TV? I would think the TV simply accepts whatever signal is coming from the box
But the connection from the box to the TV also needs to be encrypted, otherwise what's the point? Do you really think they would give us a free and clear digital stream when they don't even want the analog inputs in the clear? For these schemes to work, the decryption needs to be done at the display device, not the STB.


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Vic Ruiz
STOP HDCP/DFAST/5C
 

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VGA and component connectors are not "free and clear digital". They are analog. So you can very easily protect your content by just guaranteeing no unencrypted transmission via 1394 or DVI. The catch is that the DVI protection licenses require set-top manufacturers to NOT use analog connectors for full-resolution output. IMO, this is just an overly paranoid move that will cause 1394/5C, which has no such restriction, to succeed.


Mitsubishi has made it clear they will be offering something to provide 1394 compatibility to other manufacturers' sets. I would not be surprised if it comes in the form of a new set-top box that receives OTA, sat, and has 1394 inputs with component outputs.


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- Jeff
 

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Read my post again. I never said component/RGB inputs were "free and clear digital". That comment refers to the previous post, where Michael asked about the connection from the STB to the TV. I did mention "analog inputs in the clear", which is what component/RGB are, and the MPAA does not want them either.


You are also incorrect in stating that 5C has no restriction on full-resolution analog outputs. It also has been established that it does.


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Vic Ruiz
STOP HDCP/DFAST/5C
 

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Quote:
That's a poor way to lose all your current early adopters
Actually, thats an excellant way to lose all your current early adopters http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


The MPAA could care less about "early adopters", and the consumer electronics industry caved in.


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Alex
 

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The studios may have agreed on 5c but Dish and DirecTV announced that their next generation STB will support DVI/HDCP. See link below for details.
http://biz.yahoo.com/bw/010725/0322.html


FOR those not familiar with HDCP a summary can be found here. http://www.siimage.com/documents/SiI-WP-002-A.pdf

Please note decryption is performed inside the display device.


The licensing agreements for both HDCP and 5C forbid the output of analog video from the encrypted stream at any resolution higher than 480i


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Rudy
My Home Theater


[This message has been edited by RudyT (edited 07-26-2001).]
 

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One would hope that somewhere in an Asian back alley a little black box will be manufactured capable of decrypting DVI and 5C with component and RGB outputs.......it may be hard to find at first (greymaket) but those who actually need one (current FPTV/RPTV owners) may still retain hope..... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/wink.gif

 

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ANYTHING in digital form can be copied, cracked or hacked. It just takes time to decipher the encryption. If you tell a hacker/cracker that something is not "hackable," that just gives them more fuel for their fire.


=> Mando


[This message has been edited by Mando (edited 07-26-2001).]
 

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You forgot about DMCA..it is illegal to sell, post or import any thing that would bypass copy protection. What I see happening is a class action lawsuit. There are thousands of people who purchased HDTV and when they find out that there multi-thousand dollar TV doesn't work because MPAA forced this without any warning and no-way to adapt/upgrade existing TV's they'll be pissed.


Jim
 

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I highly doubt we will see a "crack" anytime soon. DeCss was not "cracked", it was released to the public domain through a linux licensor. Don't expect to see that again. Divx was never cracked. The DMCA is not a joke.


The DirectTv "hackers" are consitantly downloading keys from websites that get shut down in a matter of hours.



It seems the consensus from this thread is that a lawsuit is still a while away.
http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum11/HTML/015144.html


By the way, don't think legal action will happen if enough people just get pissed on AVS forum. It won't just happen by itself.


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Alex
 

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DivX was never cracked because no one cared. It died because it was a bad idea.


The main problems with the DMCA are that it conflicts with current case law and runs into 1st amendment problems. Reverse engineering is already protected in law, but somehow becomes illegal under the DMCA. Likewise, computer algorithms are currently freely distributable, but the DMCA somehow makes a distinction about what the code is actually doing. There are going to be some heated court cases before this is all settled.
 

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Mando, try cracking PGP, or a 1Kbit key from RSA, and let me know how well you do. http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif
Quote:
The licensing agreements for both HDCP and 5C forbid the output of analog video from the encrypted stream at any resolution higher than 480i.
Actually it's 480p, but that's not really relevant.


Have the satellite STBs actually stated that they won't be providing analog outs? I don't see them saying that anywhere (correct me if I'm wrong).


And since the stream from the satellite is going to be compressed, it's not going to be a HDCP-encrypted stream, so the HDCP-conversion restrictions don't apply, and the satellite STBs are free to have full-res analog output.


See this thread for more info.



[This message has been edited by Chris Carollo (edited 07-27-2001).]
 

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Chris, that doesn't make any sense. If the STB makers want the HDCP/5C license, they can't provide full resolution analog outputs. That's what the licensing agreements say. I don't believe your interpretation is correct.


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Vic Ruiz
STOP HDCP/DFAST/5C
 

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Quote:
Have the satellite STBs actually stated that they won't be providing analog outs? I don't see them saying that anywhere (correct me if I'm wrong).
That's not the issue. They can have all the analog outputs they want. The problem is that the STB is required to down-rez the output from the analog outputs if the CP flags in the content tell it to. So you'll still have your analog output, but at a useless resolution.


For someone like me, not only would this invalidate my $10K projector investment, but it would require me to invest in a scaler to scale back up the down-rez'd content because 480 lines on a 92" diagonal screen is a joke. And I certainly wouldn't pay to watch any such content.


Basically, if that happened, and they started turning on those bits commonly, I'd have to seriously consider getting out and just stick to DVDs. I certainly cannot afford another $10K purchase any time soon (assuming that what would be available to buy and of equivalent quality would even be that cheap.) If only all-digital sets are licensed, becuase they are seen as the only ones with sufficient protection against intrusive access to the decrypted signal, then anyone who things that digital ain't there yet will have an interesting choice as well.



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Dean Roddey

The Charmed Quark Controller
[email protected]
www.charmedquark.com


If it don't have a control port, don't buy it!
 

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Chris...I am personally not into cracking or hacking, but understand that there is someone out there who WILL crack it just for the kick of it...just takes time and CPU horsepower.


It is foolish to assume that something is not hackable or crackable in this digital era. That is why the movies studios are so hesitate about releasing their content in ANY Hi-Def form. Remember how long it took DVD to finally come to fruition? They are in business to maximize their profits, while protecting their interests.


=> Mando


[This message has been edited by Mando (edited 07-27-2001).]
 
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