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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I know the year 2002 Pioneer Elites will be here soon,

but I'm wondering how year 2002 Mits, Toshiba etc. RPTVs

compare to CURRENT Pioneer Elites. Anybody done a

comparison?


The Pioneer Elites have been out now for over a year.

They have stayed top of the hill, all that time. That's

a LONG time. But now, they have new competition. So

how do they compare with year 2002 RPTVs, from Mits,

Toshiba, etc.?


Pioneer Elites had the BEST line doubler for displaying

non-hi def TV. How do the line doublers in 2002 Toshiba

and Mitsubishi RPTVs compare with the line doublers in

current Pioneer Elite RPTVs?


Thanks!



[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-19-2001).]
 

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While I haven't seen any of the 2002 models, I have learned on the forum that the Mitsubishis use the same line doubler in 2002 that they used in 2001. This is generally considered to be quite inferior to the chipset used in the Elites. However, for the difference in price, you can buy a pretty good external line doubler - and with an external line doubler, I think anyone will tell you that a properly calibrated Mitsu looks pretty damn close, if not as good, as an Elite.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Will:
I know the year 2002 Pioneer Elites will be here soon,

but I'm wondering how year 2002 Mits, Toshiba etc. RPTVs

compare to CURRENT Pioneer Elites. Anybody done a

comparison?


The Pioneer Elites have been out now for over a year.

They have stayed top of the hill, all that time. That's

a LONG time. But now, they have new competition. So

how do they compare with year 2002 RPTVs, from Mits,

Toshiba, etc.?


Pioneer Elites had the BEST line doubler for displaying

non-hi def TV. How do the line doublers in 2002 Toshiba

and Mitsubishi RPTVs compare with the line doublers in

current Pioneer Elite RPTVs?


Thanks!



[This message has been edited by Will (edited 08-19-2001).]
Your opinion of the Elites being "top of the hill" is just that...an opinion. It all depends on personal preferences here. There are many here that feel Mitsubishi, Toshiba, Zenith and so on are the "top of the hill" for many different reasons.




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Kipp


IS THAT A REMOTE CONTROL IN YOUR POCKET OR ARE YOU JUST HAPPY TO SEE HDTV?
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by kippjones:
Your opinion of the Elites being "top of the hill" is just that...an opinion. It all depends on personal preferences here. There are many here that feel Mitsubishi, Toshiba, Zenith and so on are the "top of the hill" for many different reasons.

I agree completely. Given the choice between the 64" Pioneer 710 and the 73" Mits 73907, which are roughly the same price, I went for the larger real estate. As most here have said, with the proper calibration and external doubler, the price difference with the Elite starts to seem excessive. Of course, this is yet another opinion.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
I guess I heard on many postings that Pioneer Elites have

fewer artifacts than the built-in line doublers in

most other RPTVs. However, Pioneer Elite 510/610/710's

are pretty expensive.


But now we are seeing model 2002 RPTVs, less expensive than

Pioneer Elites, from Mits, Toshiba, Panasonic, etc. and

so I was wondering how their line doublers compare to

current Pioneer Elites. Guess it doesn't look too good

for the new Mitsubishi's, according to the following:
Quote:
bschack writes:
While I haven't seen any of the 2002 models, I have

learned on the forum that the Mitsubishis use the same line

doubler in 2002 that they used in 2001. This is generally

considered to be quite inferior to the chipset used in the

Elites.
Thanks, bschack! Anyone have news on the line doublers

in the new Toshiba RPTVs, either the X81s or the HX81s?

Or the new Panasonic RPTVs? Thanks again!
 

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Quote:
Anyone have news on the line doublers for the new Panasonics?
Let me be blunt. Using Zoom mode with my Panny 47WX49, Laserdisc looks like complete crap and when windowboxed, looks poor. DVD looks outstanding.


The worse the source is, the worsethe doubler performs.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Will:
I had no idea it was so controversial that Pioneer Elites

have the very best built in line doubler, of any current

RPTV model. I apologize for offending anyone.
I agree the Elites have the best built-in line doubler, but that doesn't justify their price. You'd be better off going with a Diamond Mits and getting an iScan. I read a review about one of the Elites and while its line doubler was very good, the reviewer still commented that using a iScan with the set was noticeably better. Moreover, if you primarily watch HDTV and/or progressive scan DVDs (like many do) then the fact the Elites have a great line doubler is moot!
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I had no idea it was so controversial that Pioneer Elites

have the very best built in line doubler, of any current

RPTV model. I apologize for offending anyone.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Will:
I had no idea it was so controversial that Pioneer Elites

have the very best built in line doubler, of any current

RPTV model. I apologize for offending anyone.
Even though the others are correct about whether the Pioneer Elites are the "top of the hill" is simply people's opinion, it is an opinion that is widely held so I think your question was a valid one. The same arguments can be made about DVD players and which produces the "best" picture, etc. It's just that there seems to be a more general concensus of opinions that the Pioneer Elites have the best de-interlacers.


Maybe we need an HDTV shootout, like the DVD player shootouts so we can see just how good the various de-interlacers really are.... http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif




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Peace....
 

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Greetings


From my experience, a fully tweaked out Elite is about par with a fully tweaked out Toshiba unit. Mits are up there too.


The expense on the Elite is that it comes OOTB closer to the fully tweaked position.


Regards


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Michael @ The Laser Video Experience
 

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I looked at all of these units this past weekend and to my surprise the Toshiba does look as good as the Mitsu's and the Elites. There were different models of the Mitsu that I didn't know about. Does anyone know the differece between the Diamond series and the others in there line up? I was dead set on getting a Toshiba but the Mitsu's were about the same price, and if they promise to support DVI in the future it might be a safer bet to go with them.


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Hate everything sony!!!
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
You can watch hi-def on different sets and see

comparable results, but the results can be very

different when watching low-def on the same sets,

such as regular NTSC (over the air) programs.


I think the line doubler inside even a fully tweaked

year 2001 Mits or Toshiba is NOT on par with the

line doubler in a fully tweaked Pioneer Elite. For

viewing non hi-def material, I think it's best to have

a good line doubler, either one inside the RPTV, or an

external unit outside the RPTV, like what iScan makes.


One of the main differences I've seen in viewing regular

NTSC over the air material material on different 16 x 9

RPTV's is the quality of their built in line doublers.


Watching regular NTSC on some 16 x 9 RPTVs can be quite

painful, in that regard. But of course, this can be

corrected in sets without a good internal line doubler

by purchasing an external line doubler.


Hopefully the line doublers will be improving, on those

sets that had problems with line doublers, in their year

2002 models.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Michael4JBL:

[BDoes anyone know the differece between the Diamond series and the others in there line up?

[/b]
I believe that the Platinum line is simply a repackaged version of the Diamond line the year before. Diamond has enhanced lenses and a better cabinet, but I think the general consensus is that the PQ differences are minimal. Personally, I saw a big difference between my 73905 (equivalent to this year's Platinum) and 73907 (this year's Diamond) but it could have been because the CRT's were brand new.




[This message has been edited by RSongco (edited 08-21-2001).]
 

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Line doublers aside, there are other factors that make the Elites superior, IMO.


The color rendition is very accurate. Unlike the Mits or others they can be calibrated to SMPTE (broadcast) standards. Many people don't like that look but it's the "right" look when comparing to nature. The Mits and Toshiba both look too hot and ther Mits is over enhanced. Just because it's HDTV doesn't mean everything is supposed to jump off the screen.
 

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Each set has its strenths and weaknesses. The variations between uncalibrated sets of any one manufacturer are often greater than the differences between different brands. The only way to compare sets is to compare fully calibrated sets, which very few people can do. Listen to what Michael TLV had to say, he calibrates these sets, so he knows.


Some of the pros for the Elite are:
  • Better out-of-the-box calibration
  • Best line doubler of any set (not applicable for DVD or HD)
  • Better stretch mode for 4:3


Some of the cons:
  • Expensive compared to Mits and Toshiba
  • Has locked out service menus like new Mits and Toshibas (There are ways around this on Mits and Tosh, but not on the Elite)
  • Has excessive edge enhancement that can't be fixed
  • Has 10%-15% red push in color decoder (can't be fixed in service menus)
  • Current model locks into anmorphic mode on progressive (fixed in new models)


The Elites advantages are more in the 4:3 NTSC area (the line doubler is not even used in HD or progressive DVD) and in quality control. If Satellite/Cable are your main interest and cost a lesser consideration then the Elite is a very good choice. If DVD and HD are your priorities, and you can tweak your set or plan to have it calibrated, the Mits and Toshiba can give you an image that is as good or better than the Elite's.


[This message has been edited by Yeringto (edited 08-22-2001).]
 

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A set that doesn't get mentioned much in these comparisons is Sony.


The 4:3 HS10 / HS20 / HS 30 series and their twin-brother chassis 16:9 XBR10W series have a lot going for them:


Pretty accurate color decoder

Excellent 4:3 mode display on the XBR10W (resolution patterns test verrrrry nearly as well as in the 16:9 mode... Mits and Tosh can't touch it's 4:3 performance. I tested them too.)

Reasonably accesible service menu for those so inclined


Just points to ponder.
 

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I myself didn't worry about 4:3 performance too much during my decision making, because all new programming will soon be shot in widescreen anyhow. In due time, the point will become moot.
 

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How many lines of resolution does sony xbr have? Can anyone answer this question? Smell conspiracy!!!


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Hate everything sony!!!
 

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The new 2002 Pioneer non-Elites do not have the lock on full problem. They are rumored to have the line-doubler from the current (2001) Elites. And they are relatively inexpensive. The cabinets also look much better to my eye than the Toshibas. They are only available in 53" and 64" models, though. Onecall has them listed this week.
 
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