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Challenging TiVo, or Tablo?

Why wouldn't Amazon simply buy Nuyvvo?

It's introducing cloud storage in beta to eliminate the need/cost of local storage, likely contracting with Amazon Cloud, unless microsoft or google bid lower.

Tablo grabs the OTA content Amazon can't get easily. It needs services, which Amazon could bundle with Prime Video, and then track, like TiVo does, but Amazon sells directly based on customer data, while TiVo rents your data.

Nuyvvo is Canadian, discards from Nortel so they are a bit more globally focused, and not focused on rent seeking like TiVo by nature. TiVo is fighting Comcast which is fighting TiVo rent seeking.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
My understanding, is that "Frank" will include local Storage for the OTA broadcast recordings, and some type of de-interlacing hardware.

AFAIK, no devices currently use Cloud storage for individually captured OTA MPEG 2 broadcasts. Services like Sling TV, and DTVN, have capture, encoding, and server hardware in COLA's in each Designated Local Area that they serve, to provide Live feeds, and DVR features for customers.

TiVo beta tested Mavrik, an OTA Cloud DVR device last year, but bandwidth and error issues resulted in it being scrapped. They are re-applying those ideas to a new system for Cable companies, and content Distributers where data bandwidth limitations are not a concern.
 

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Why wouldn't Amazon simply buy Nuyvvo? It's introducing cloud storage in beta to eliminate the need/cost of local storage, likely contracting with Amazon Cloud....
A 1 TB USB HDD costs $50 or less. Sling's cloud DVR is $5/mo. If that price is typical, the payback for local storage is less than a year.

Plus, the user has less control with cloud DVR storage. The service provider can limit how long you can keep recordings and/or charge more for more space - and there's no way you'll be downloading or editing those cloud-based recordings!
My understanding, is that "Frank" will include local Storage for the OTA broadcast recordings....
Seems like that makes the most sense. Many folks get their Internet service via cable. Cable download speeds are usually awesome but upload speeds are much lower. I suppose you could transcode to h.264 and/or reduce the resolution to maybe 720p on the fly, but that raises the hardware cost.
 

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I think this is the device:

Fire TV Recast

Amazon said:
Fire TV Recast is a DVR that lets you watch and record over-the-air TV at home or on-the-go with a Fire TV, Echo Show, or compatible mobile device—with no monthly fees.

Watch and record live sports, local news, late night shows, and other can’t miss TV from channels available through an HD antenna like ABC, CBS, FOX, NBC, PBS, and The CW.

Record up to 2 shows at once, with enough storage for up to 75 hours of HD programming.

With a compatible Alexa-enabled device, you can use your voice to search for shows, manage and schedule recordings, and help with other requests. Say things like “Alexa, open Channel Guide" or “Alexa, record ‘Riverdale.’”

Fire TV Recast delivers the most reliable video streams over Wi-Fi of any over-the-air DVR.

We want you to know:
To use Fire TV Recast to watch and record over-the-air TV, you’ll need the following (sold separately):
  1. An HD antenna - specific channel availablity and reception varies by location
  2. A Fire TV streaming media player or Echo Show
  3. Access to the free Fire TV app on a Fire tablet (5th Gen or above), or an iOS 10 (or above) or Android 4.4 (or above) mobile device.
No word on the DVR functions or channel guide listing (in detail). It does use local storage and not cloud storage for the DVR.
 

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I snagged some images from the brief video on the Amazon site:

The Home Screen apps look like the Fire TV interface, as expected, which looks remarkably like the Android TV interface. Image below. Does anyone know if it's the same code? The Fire Tablets use a forked version of Android so I suspect they are using Android TV as well.

The guide they show is pretty uninspiring. I'm not sure you'll be able to see shows from 8 to 10 ... it looks like 10 is right at the right margin when you are viewing the guide and looking at 8, so there may be horizontal scrolling needed to see what's on at 10. It looks like there are five rows in the grid, a problem I have on other devices requiring multiple page downs to see what's on that I might want to record. I hope there's a "condensed grid" option to show more channels at a time, and get the full three hours of prime time shown (from 8 through 10).

The "DVR | My Recordings" page is not too inspiring either; in the screen shot you can only see four recorded series or shows. Maybe there's also a grid listing where you can see 10 to 15 like "old" dvrs.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hmm ... if it works on Android mobile devices, it would presumably work on Android TV devices too, wouldn't it?
It also works on IOS, but not TVOS. Not yet in Apple App Store.

With the beef between Amazon and Google I was surprised it has an Android app.
 

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Here are a few articles on it:

https://techcrunch.com/2018/09/20/a...ll-let-you-record-live-tv-stream-it-anywhere/ (negatives: can't record "all new" programs)

https://www.cnet.com/news/amazon-fire-tv-recast-dvr-starts-at-230-available-nov-14/ (no real news about capabilities other than the press release stuff)

https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/20/...-2018-dvr-channels-features-ios-android-price (most interesting sentence: "Fire TV Recast can be integrated into the channel guide, so you could watch with Prime Video and even PlayStation Vue." - not sure what that means, really).

First hand's on article I've seen: https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/20/17883860/amazon-fire-tv-recast-hands-on-photos-features-dvr
  • Says it does stream to a Playstation Vue
  • Otherwise, only works on Fire devices, not on your computer browser
  • Guide data is in the DVR app on the Fire device, which he posits is "silly"

It's interesting, but I think it does less than a HD Homerun with similar features. But you pay $35 a year for the HD HR DVR.
 

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The more I learn, the more the Recast sounds like the AirTV "black box." Their capabilities are strikingly similar.
Advantage to the AirTV on that one. AirTV can record all "new" programs.
https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/20/...-2018-dvr-channels-features-ios-android-price (most interesting sentence: "Fire TV Recast can be integrated into the channel guide, so you could watch with Prime Video and even PlayStation Vue." - not sure what that means, really).
"Can" be? I would expect it to be! But I think what they meant is that when you use the Prime Video app, you get the Recast's channel guide and your recordings too, so you can access either from within that one app. Again, that's similar to the AirTV, which uses the Sling app (with or without a Sling TV subscription) to access your OTA channels and recordings.
First hands-on article I've seen: https://www.theverge.com/2018/9/20/17883860/amazon-fire-tv-recast-hands-on-photos-features-dvr


  • Says it does stream to a Playstation Vue
  • Otherwise, only works on Fire devices, not on your computer browser
  • Guide data is in the DVR app on the Fire device, which he posits is "silly"

It's interesting, but I think it does less than a HD Homerun with similar features. But you pay $35 a year for the HD HR DVR.
The HDHR DVR also lets you use an Android device, such as a Stream+, for storage as well as just streaming; and it's the only one to support off-loading recordings.

Another important consideration is which TV streaming devices these three DVR solutions support. After all, most folks won't be starting from scratch when they buy one of these boxes; they'll want to choose the box that works with what they already have.

Supporting the PS Vue is an advantage for the Recast; OTOH, only AirTV has promised Roku support. But I don't understand why none of these solutions supports a PC Web browser. Sling itself can be used from Google's Chrome browser, so it's evidently not a piracy concern.
  • Can not add additional storage.
  • Can not transfer, back up recordings.
Think that pretty much nails the coffin shut! :mad: :mad:
Again, AirTV has the same limitation on transferring or backing up recordings. The HDHR DVR is the only realistic option here. The AirTV does use external storage (up to 2 TB) instead of internal, though, so a mirroring enclosure may work around the lack of backup capability. But two 2 TB drives plus an enclosure could easily run $200 or more, erasing the AirTV's price advantage over the Recast. But at least you'd have lots of space and some backup.
Plus confirmation that this thing has NO MICROPHONES in it!
From my standpoint, that's a good thing: it means you can put it where your TV antenna is, which may not be within earshot! Let the Fire device at your TV do the voice-activated thing if that's a feature you want.
 

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Think that pretty much nails the coffin shut! :mad: :mad:

So unless this is fixed in release or hackable, then its done.

Plus confirmation that this thing has NO MICROPHONES in it!
Many of the Fire TV and Alexa devices you use to control it have mics. Amazon has a whole page of voice commands in the FAQ. The Recast device itself is designed to be located near your antenna, not necessarily near your TV. Plus if the mic resided in the Recast, you couldn't do voice from other rooms or a phone/tablet without some serious yelling. So the current mic-less design is good.

Bummer about transfers/backups. But that's rarely stopped us before. Didn't stop us on the Stream+.
 

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People Just don't learn!

"The company also has plans to extend storage of both devices with the option to connect an external hard drive, but this feature won’t be available at launch."

.

This BS of release a feature poor device, and then "promise feature(s)" is just total BS.

Pay attention amzn, you are already on double quadruple secret probation with me as it is, and Channel Master pulled the same crap with their stupid puck. NO!

EXTERNAL STORAGE be it main storage, or the option to add more, is a REQUIRED DAY ONE FEATURE. Doubt me? I have 40TB to prove my point.

9/10 times the feature(s) never show up.

Me thinks Bloomberg upset the cart, and forced a rush out of a feature minus device.
 

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Says it does stream to a Playstation Vue
On further reflection, I think we may have misinterpreted that. "Playstation Vue" isn't a box that you can stream to; it's a skinny bundle service like Sling TV. The box is simply a "Playstation," of course.

Let me reread the article and see if I can figure out what they're trying to say.
 

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No fires here!

Many of the Fire TV and Alexa devices you use to control it have mics
I have NO fire devices. And so if this REQUIRES one, then its DOA. What I read doesn't read that it requires that, and Android device with their application would work, which is what I would use. Require one of those fire things, DOA.

. Amazon has a whole page of voice commands in the FAQ
Don't care, I don't talk to my computer. Its quite fine for it to talk to me, preferably in a GI SP0256 w/AL256 voice.

. The Recast device itself is designed to be located near your antenna, not necessarily near your TV
I read that, and that is where it would be located, possibly if they fix their misfit product.

. Plus if the mic resided in the Recast, you couldn't do voice from other rooms or a phone/tablet without some serious yelling. So the current mic-less design is good.
See above, I have no intention of talking to my computers, now or anytime of the rest of my life. Thanks.

I still don't trust this bunch. No trust, Verify, VERIFY. Some one will need to rip one open to make sure.


Bummer about transfers/backups. But that's rarely stopped us before. Didn't stop us on the Stream+.
I will take both those statements with a grain of salt, as the past has proven that what they attempt to lock down will be unlocked by the very locks they use.
BUT if true, the device is useless to me. The whole point of any recording is the ability to scp to where I want to play it. No I don't do online streams to a device. The device will be preloaded or loaded with the files needed. I have the ability to watch what I want where I want on the devices I chose, not that of various groups wishing to restrict or prohibit my choice.


Maybe once cox gets done smacking Tivo/rovio around and invalidating all their patents and other similar trollery some one will introduce something better knowing they won't get sued. The iView box is getting close so our asian copycatters are at least watching the space for options to peruse.
 

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On further reflection, I think we may have misinterpreted that. "Playstation Vue" isn't a box that you can stream to; it's a skinny bundle service like Sling TV. The box is simply a "Playstation," of course.

Let me reread the article and see if I can figure out what they're trying to say.
OK, the exact quote was:
It’s not a cable box and won’t work with cable if you plug it in. (It does support PlayStation Vue streaming, though.)
So in context, it seems to be suggesting that streamed PS Vue could substitute for cable TV. IOW, I think they're using the PS Vue service the same way the AirTV BB uses the Sling TV service: to fill your OTA lineup in with the "cable" channels you lose when you "cut the cord."

The way it was phrased was probably a bit misleading: PS Vue would be streamed directly from the Internet to the app on your Fire TV (or iOS or Android) device. It wouldn't go "through" the Recast; it's just that the app integrates your Recast OTA channels and PS Vue channels into a single lineup. (The Sling apps do the same thing with the AirTV BB, and Live Channels on the Stream+ does the same thing if you add, say, Pluto TV.) I bet if you pay for PS Vue's cloud DVR, you'll even have a Record option on the PS Vue channels just as with the live ones.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
On further reflection, I think we may have misinterpreted that. "Playstation Vue" isn't a box that you can stream to; it's a skinny bundle service like Sling TV. The box is simply a "Playstation," of course.

Let me reread the article and see if I can figure out what they're trying to say.
There appears to be some confusion with Amazons release info, not surprising. However, an MSNBC media correspondent who was at the private suite for the demo, explained PlayStation Vue is one of their first partners in this endeavor, and that Vue subscribers will have their live channels included in the Recast guide, not duplicated, (not sure what that meant). Recast does not stream recordings to PlayStation devices.

When asked about the USB port, he was told that it was to supply power to Antenna's that needed power to operate. The Recast FAQ specifically say, external drives are not supported.

It's been only a few days since this was officially announced, and these mis cues are common. AirTV continued to confuse features from their black box and AirTV Player Android TV device for several months.

Amazon has not printed any of the "not supported at this time" details on their web site, which was a mistake CM made with the Stream+. As of this evening, the Amazon FAQ still says external drives Not supported, but, things change.
 

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One of the articles I linked indicated you couldn't record "all new" shows, while another says you can; I suspect it is a feature that is "coming". It will be interesting to see if Amazon's engineers can program a DVR using their fork of Android faster than Google can.

It does have some recorded program management listed in the FAQ, and will delete older recordings to record new programs. That's a missing feature in some OTA DVRs that simply stop recording when you run out of room.

But other than that, we don't know the capabilities of the DVR. Is "chase play" available? Is the guide 2 days (like the Android TV devices), 14 days like TiVo and the DVR+, or more?

For me, the problem is that it's a relatively closed system. You have to use a Fire TV television or Fire TV streaming device to see the recordings on any TV. They will have an app for android and iOS, but not the TV versions of those OS to integrate it with other streaming devices in the future. And viewing the recordings on a laptop or computer using a browser is out too. I think it's really intended for a home that is Alexa enabled with Echo devices and Fire TV devices.
 
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