I've had good match with a small, Krell KAV 300i integrated amp with my Denon 5600 before.
Just my 2cents, BK
Just my 2cents, BK
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But don't you know that all amps are the same in terms of sound derived? 
I know this because there are many on this very board who have repeatedly said so.
So let's recap, shall we?
Same speakers...same room...different amping...different sound...with three different amping sources. Hmmmmmm? I wonder how long it will take before someone mentions double-blind test?
Enjoy the Rotel.
I know this because there are many on this very board who have repeatedly said so.
So let's recap, shall we?
Same speakers...same room...different amping...different sound...with three different amping sources. Hmmmmmm? I wonder how long it will take before someone mentions double-blind test?
Enjoy the Rotel.
Quote:
At least I was true to the advice I have always given others. I didn't even bother with a listening test in the store. It was a simple, "here's the credit card". Granted, I did the research first and read a number of opinions on Club Rotel and the Klipsch forum.
I am a firm believer that the only way to evaluate a new piece of equipment is to introduce it into exactly the same environment as the one being replaced (in this case the Crown K1). Even with sonic memory being the unfaithful friend that it is, I have enough "favorite" CDs that I can tell sound "different" now that the Rotel is in the system.
Whether that difference is a "good" difference or a "bad" difference will only reveal itself in time, and with extended listening. I can say this: the high end of the Klipsch seems a bit tamer, without being dull. There is still a great soundstage, a nice sense of "air" around instruments and voices, and pinpoint localization. I can see why other Klipsch owners seem fond of Rotel. So far, this seems like a positive change.
Just to add to the fun, the Crown K1 is now connected to a Yamaha in the bedroom that has an older set of Polk 800s. I'm still deciding whether I like that combination.
| Originally Posted by ClarkeBar But don't you know that all amps are the same in terms of sound derived? I know this because there are many on this very board who have repeatedly said so. So let's recap, shall we? Same speakers...same room...different amping...different sound...with three different amping sources. Hmmmmmm? I wonder how long it will take before someone mentions double-blind test? Enjoy the Rotel. |
I am a firm believer that the only way to evaluate a new piece of equipment is to introduce it into exactly the same environment as the one being replaced (in this case the Crown K1). Even with sonic memory being the unfaithful friend that it is, I have enough "favorite" CDs that I can tell sound "different" now that the Rotel is in the system.
Whether that difference is a "good" difference or a "bad" difference will only reveal itself in time, and with extended listening. I can say this: the high end of the Klipsch seems a bit tamer, without being dull. There is still a great soundstage, a nice sense of "air" around instruments and voices, and pinpoint localization. I can see why other Klipsch owners seem fond of Rotel. So far, this seems like a positive change.
Just to add to the fun, the Crown K1 is now connected to a Yamaha in the bedroom that has an older set of Polk 800s. I'm still deciding whether I like that combination.
tonal match
Power level matching fixes many issues when you mix brands. Most people never do this
nor know how. If you want a matching system then use the same brand of amplification
rated for the same power levels.
More is better only if your speakers can hang
Power level matching fixes many issues when you mix brands. Most people never do this
nor know how. If you want a matching system then use the same brand of amplification
rated for the same power levels.
More is better only if your speakers can hang
Quote:
Oh yeah. I've been experimenting with a number of things lately (it is both a good thing and a bad thing to be reading threads on this forum!).
At one point I tried bi-amping the Klipsch by using the Denon for the tweeters and the Crown K1 for the mid/bass, with the dual SVS 20-39's handling everything below 80 hz. It is amazing how you can screw up the sound if you aren't careful.
The tonal characteristics of the Denon are very different than the Crown. That in itself introduced all sorts of anomalies. Aside from that, until I did the correct calibration between the tweeters and the mid/bass, I found I was sending more gain to the mid/ lower than to the tweeters. That was a fine mess.
Thing is, I don't recall in all the "new amp making me grin..." type threads or the "bi-wire vs bi-amp vs internal crossovers vs external crossovers vs [fill in the blank] ones any discussion of how you can wind up making things worse rather than better unless proper calibration is done at each step. It seems so obvious after the fact, but heck, I didn't break anything in the process.
Part of the fun of this hobby is the experimenting. At the very least, I've learned what NOT to do.
| Originally Posted by ClarkeBar To your credit you did it the right way Peter. I don't doubt your ears for a second. But the level matching both cneely8 and thylanter raise is a good issue . If not done accurately the sound can be altered. I assume you took note of this when switching units around. |
At one point I tried bi-amping the Klipsch by using the Denon for the tweeters and the Crown K1 for the mid/bass, with the dual SVS 20-39's handling everything below 80 hz. It is amazing how you can screw up the sound if you aren't careful.
The tonal characteristics of the Denon are very different than the Crown. That in itself introduced all sorts of anomalies. Aside from that, until I did the correct calibration between the tweeters and the mid/bass, I found I was sending more gain to the mid/ lower than to the tweeters. That was a fine mess.
Thing is, I don't recall in all the "new amp making me grin..." type threads or the "bi-wire vs bi-amp vs internal crossovers vs external crossovers vs [fill in the blank] ones any discussion of how you can wind up making things worse rather than better unless proper calibration is done at each step. It seems so obvious after the fact, but heck, I didn't break anything in the process.
Part of the fun of this hobby is the experimenting. At the very least, I've learned what NOT to do.
Part of the fun of this hobby is the experimenting.
If you really want to accellerate the understanding, build your own speaker
and use a digital crossover {crossover, eq, delay} with one amp channel per
driver. This allows you to tweak endlessly in real time to help you understand
what parameters affect the sound and how. Once you mess with this, audio
becomes easy as the fog is lifted and you'll never desire to use the old method.
If you really want to accellerate the understanding, build your own speaker
and use a digital crossover {crossover, eq, delay} with one amp channel per
driver. This allows you to tweak endlessly in real time to help you understand
what parameters affect the sound and how. Once you mess with this, audio
becomes easy as the fog is lifted and you'll never desire to use the old method.
Quote:
There is a fine line between hobby and obsession.
With my obsessive personality (Monk is my hero), that would be all I would need to remove any contact with the family .
| Originally Posted by thylantyr Part of the fun of this hobby is the experimenting. If you really want to accellerate the understanding, build your own speaker and use a digital crossover {crossover, eq, delay} with one amp channel per driver. This allows you to tweak endlessly in real time to help you understand what parameters affect the sound and how. Once you mess with this, audio becomes easy as the fog is lifted and you'll never desire to use the old method. |
With my obsessive personality (Monk is my hero), that would be all I would need to remove any contact with the family
.Quote:
What I described is common in other audio industries, not so common
in home audio, but more folks in the home audio DIY worlds are entering.
If you aren't familiar with this method then it will appear alien, but it's really
really simple to do. I'm running my line array using this method.
source digital out -> digital volume control -> digital crossover/eq/delay -> amps ->
speakers.
I have control of many variables in real time at the listening position.
| Originally Posted by petergaryr There is a fine line between hobby and obsession. With my obsessive personality (Monk is my hero), that would be all I would need to remove any contact with the family . |
in home audio, but more folks in the home audio DIY worlds are entering.
If you aren't familiar with this method then it will appear alien, but it's really
really simple to do. I'm running my line array using this method.
source digital out -> digital volume control -> digital crossover/eq/delay -> amps ->
speakers.
I have control of many variables in real time at the listening position.
Quote:
Welcome to the club mate
Seriously Crown/Proamps might be the most neutral and accurate amps on the face of this earth but that still does not change anything for me. I could not live with their sound.
Rotel OTOH is the other extreme. My old speakers sounded fantastic to me with Rotel as well but deep down I knew this meant that these speakers are not my cup of tea so I eventually changed those to something to my liking. Now I can listen to the stuff as loud as I want without a hint of fatigue.
BTW in one way my expereince was different than yours. I could have lived with my old speakers and Crown if it was an HT only setup. The thing which really drove me away from these was 2CH stereo, which is pimary passion anyway. For you it looks like the other way around.
Just my 0.02.
Sincerely,
-dollarman
| Originally Posted by petergaryr The Crown was adding a somewhat harsh coloration to the overall sound. |
Seriously Crown/Proamps might be the most neutral and accurate amps on the face of this earth but that still does not change anything for me. I could not live with their sound.
Rotel OTOH is the other extreme. My old speakers sounded fantastic to me with Rotel as well but deep down I knew this meant that these speakers are not my cup of tea so I eventually changed those to something to my liking. Now I can listen to the stuff as loud as I want without a hint of fatigue.
BTW in one way my expereince was different than yours. I could have lived with my old speakers and Crown if it was an HT only setup. The thing which really drove me away from these was 2CH stereo, which is pimary passion anyway. For you it looks like the other way around.
Just my 0.02.
Sincerely,
-dollarman
Quote:
Thanks!
Actually, 2 channel music was the primary motivator since that is my number 1 passion. In the limited amount of time I've had the Rotel, it is definitely more "musical" (whatever that means) than the Crown. The Crown K1 has raw power with 350 wpc, but the Rotel at 130 wpc just is a better match. It isn't always about the quantity, but rather the quality.
As for HT, when I was reading the "All Channels Driven" thread, it struck me that the ongoing debate there actually has some merit.
If I added an external amp to the mains, that would ensure that they would more likely be getting the rated power of the dedicated amp, leaving the Denon to supply the rest of the amplification for the center and surround channels. So far, that also seems to be the case.
Once again, the concept of using a receiver as a pre/pro along with an external, good quality amp seems to be proving true (to those who may be on the fence). However, now when the new threads pop up about this, I'm going to be adding the caution concerning "voice matching" of the external amp (though I'm not sure that is the best term to use).
| Originally Posted by dollarman Welcome to the club mate Seriously Crown/Proamps might be the most neutral and accurate amps on the face of this earth but that still does not change anything for me. I could not live with their sound. Rotel OTOH is the other extreme. My old speakers sounded fantastic to me with Rotel as well but deep down I knew this meant that these speakers are not my cup of tea so I eventually changed those to something to my liking. Now I can listen to the stuff as loud as I want without a hint of fatigue. BTW in one way my expereince was different than yours. I could have lived with my old speakers and Crown if it was an HT only setup. The thing which really drove me away from these was 2CH stereo, which is pimary passion anyway. For you it looks like the other way around. Just my 0.02. Sincerely, -dollarman |
Actually, 2 channel music was the primary motivator since that is my number 1 passion. In the limited amount of time I've had the Rotel, it is definitely more "musical" (whatever that means) than the Crown. The Crown K1 has raw power with 350 wpc, but the Rotel at 130 wpc just is a better match. It isn't always about the quantity, but rather the quality.
As for HT, when I was reading the "All Channels Driven" thread, it struck me that the ongoing debate there actually has some merit.
If I added an external amp to the mains, that would ensure that they would more likely be getting the rated power of the dedicated amp, leaving the Denon to supply the rest of the amplification for the center and surround channels. So far, that also seems to be the case.
Once again, the concept of using a receiver as a pre/pro along with an external, good quality amp seems to be proving true (to those who may be on the fence). However, now when the new threads pop up about this, I'm going to be adding the caution concerning "voice matching" of the external amp (though I'm not sure that is the best term to use).
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