AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 38 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,957 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
To get everyone started in this brave new world of Hollywood's corporate controlled and administered entertainment in each of our homes... here are

A few new definitions from the Hollywood Studio/Manufacturer Cabal.


HDCP-DVD > The new name for high definition DVD players and media which properly defines how and where it can be used.


BSOD-Ray > Sony’s new HD format with an additional software CP layer in order to compete with the HDCP-DVD group which does include Microsoft as a member.


AACS > Name adopted from the film Mar’s Attacks. As used in the film (Aac, Aac), it means that your system can be toast when or if the martian’s (Hollywood) decide your system becomes too anti-martianlike(uncontrollable from Hollywood).


High Definition Component Video Connections > Code words for describing “Early Adopting HDTV Suckersâ€


Naïve Online Whiners > See “Early Adopting HDTV Suckersâ€


Fair Use > A term used by ancient Phono-ecians to describe recording their vinyl to cassette tapes for playback in their chariots.


VOD > Called “Video On Dollars†in longhand by the Cable and Satellite providers, it will eventually take the place of what used to be called Fair Use or TimeShifting by the Early Adopting Naïve HDTV Online Whiners.


Hope it made you smile rather than cry.... anyone got any more new definitions for us to add to these? :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,926 Posts
Could a Naive Online Whiner offer one reason why a company that owns the rights to films be prevented from selling their product with whatever restrictions they choose? Naive Online Whiners have every right not to buy any products they don't want. If you chose to buy an HDTV with analog only inputs, I would have assumed it was because you found the product worked well with available sources and not because you believed it would be guaranteed to work as you want with all future sources. This endless whining about nothing is too funny to describe. Buy the product if you want and don't buy it if you don't want it. If you do want it and want to buy an HDTV with the appropriate digital inputs, then do that. This is the biggest non-issue I have ever seen. I bought D-VHS and didn't whine because hardly any companies would release titles and the format allowed unrestricted analog HDTV. That was the risk I accepted when I purchased the product. You make decisions to buy these products or not buy these products, it isn't a very significant decision to begin with, but to whine continuously because you made a decision you apparently now regret doesn't add much to the discussion about the products.


Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,884 Posts
Quote:
Could a Naive Online Whiner offer one reason why a company that owns the rights to films be prevented from selling their product with whatever restrictions they choose?
Dunno if I qualify as a N.O.W, but the answer is simple. If we bad mouth bad products and refuse to buy them then other better products more quickly emerge in the market.


I am often fascinated by the number of suggestions here that folks disliking something should just hang onto their wallets but keep their mouths shut. That is not the way it works. Consumers share product info and preferences. The Internet has greatly expedited this process.


I dislike the idea of no component outputs. I will withhold my early adopter dollars and wait for something else. I will feel free to say so publicly.


- Tom
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,957 Posts
Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Quote:
This endless whining about nothing is too funny to describe. Buy the product if you want and don't buy it if you don't want it. If you do want it and want to buy an HDTV with the appropriate digital inputs, then do that. This is the biggest non-issue I have ever seen. I bought D-VHS and didn't whine because hardly any companies would release titles and the format allowed unrestricted analog HDTV. That was the risk I accepted when I purchased the product. You make decisions to buy these products or not buy these products, it isn't a very significant decision to begin with, but to whine continuously because you made a decision you apparently now regret doesn't add much to the discussion about the products.
That message brought to you by the MPAA. :D


Funny is what this whole thread is about. Glad you got a chuckle. The only problem is, is that you didn't add any more funny acronyms to the mix.


As for you considering this a non-issue, that makes sense coming from a defender of the Studio's actions. Of course, those of us who have been hosed by the Studios see it as a very real and important issue which needs constant, loud, and consistently voiced objections - so that the studios understand the depth and breadth of their hosejob on us as well as, continually notifying others of the Studio's attack on us early adopters and the Studio's plans for them with regard to restricting/removing their home rights/privledges with regard to privacy and long held fair use.


So... in conclusion, we whine because we care... :)
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,531 Posts
MPAA: Motion Picture Association of America


DMCA: Digital Millenium Coryright Act of 1998
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,957 Posts
Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Quote:
MPAA: Motion Picture Association of America

DMCA: Digital Millenium Coryright Act of 1998
Mark,


Upon first reading, I was going to mention to you that this thread and the acronyms it contains are supposed to be humorous.... but upon my second reading of your post, I realized the two you listed are indeed a joke. :D
 

·
Super Moderator
Joined
·
21,531 Posts
I figured you guys would be able to add your own acronyms :D
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,926 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by merc
That message brought to you by the MPAA. :D
I of course have no connection to the MPAA. The products could have unrestricted analog HDTV and little content of interest or have restricted analog outputs and protection by the law and licenses and have great available content. The issue is that simple. If you have any reason why owners of motion pictures should be forced to release movies with unrestricted analog HDTV, then explain that. If you do, then I can possibly come up with more silly acronyms. I am waiting for even one person to explain why the studios should be forced to release their product with unrestricted analog output. I accept they have this very simple right and therefore see no reason to whine about it.


Chris
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,957 Posts
Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Quote:
I of course have no connection to the MPAA.
Suprising... considering you repeat their mantras, with just the right amount of spin, very nicely. Then again, maybe you just work for a company or own a company which stands to gain by what the Studios are doing to us? ;)

Quote:
The products could have unrestricted analog HDTV and little content of interest or have restricted analog outputs and protection by the law and licenses and have great available content. The issue is that simple. If you have any reason why owners of motion pictures should be forced to release movies with unrestricted analog HDTV, then explain that.
To directly answer you question, because it is the right thing to do. It honors the folks who put DVD and HDTV where it is today... filling the coffers of the very companies who now attack us for that support.


And, as for unrestricted analog HDTV... why would they do that? DVDs have onboard CSS CP and component high definition analog signals use CGMS. Unrestricted... hardly. Oh yeah, and BTW, THERE ARE NO CONSUMER BASED COMPONENTS WHICH RECORD HD ANALOG SIGNALS VIA COMPONENT INPUTS! Sorry to yell, but for some reason the anti-consumer side always forgets this. ;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,926 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by merc
Suprising... considering you repeat their mantras, with just the right amount of spin, very nicely. Then again, maybe you just work for a company or own a company which stands to gain by what the Studios are doing to us? ;)


To directly answer you question, because it is the right thing to do. It honors the folks who put DVD and HDTV where it is today... filling the coffers of the very companies who now attack us for that support.


And, as for unrestricted analog HDTV... why would they do that? DVDs have onboard CSS CP and component high definition analog signals use CGMS. Unrestricted... hardly. Oh yeah, and BTW, THERE ARE NO CONSUMER BASED COMPONENTS WHICH RECORD HD ANALOG SIGNALS VIA COMPONENT INPUTS! Sorry to yell, but for some reason the anti-consumer side always forgets this. ;)
Again very funny, but I don't own nor work for any company that will benefit or suffer from this decision. It is absolutely irrelevant to me. Because some people think it is the right thing to do is hardly a reason for it to be forced by law. Business decisions are made everyday and this is just another one, you can agree or disagree but it is only a business decision. I own a W-VHS VCR that can record analog 1080i and it was I believe a consumer format in Japan and was certainly available to consumers here. There will soon be consumer HD MPEG encoders which is the product that drives this business decision. It would be nice if Mercedes Benz would offer cars I could afford, but I don't believe anybody would suggest that decision should be forced by law.


Continue to enjoy your analog input HDTV, it will continue to work with all sources it works with now for several more years at a minimum. The continued whining will not change this business decision, it is etched in stone.


Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Do they honestly believe this will stop anyone who really wants to copy HD over component? There will always be a work-around, a hack or what have you. It seems to me as though the lack of HD over component will make it slightly harder to copy content (thereby protecting themselves at the lowest possible security level) at the cost of screwing over millions of HDTV owners (likely customers) who adopted early before HDMI / DVI was available. Its not that HDTV owners with only component inputs didn't do enough research before buying. Even if they had done all the research they should have (and many did), there was no information to the contrary and therefore had no reason to believe their $3000 HDTV would be obsolete in 2 or 3 years.


I don't blame the MPAA for protecting themselves (even if it doesn't truly protect them very much), even if they are shooting themselves in the foot. You can't blame the HDTV manufacturers as they were simply producing what was available at the time. Having no one to blame doesn't change the fact that an already relatively small customer base for HD DVD players is being turned away.


If it matters, I have a front projector with HDMI input so this won't affect me. I did clue in my father in law, who owns a 56" Mits RP HDTV w/ only component in from 2 - 3 years ago (~$2800), that the new HD DVD players won't work with his HDTV. The first thing he said is that he plans on dragging it out onto the front lawn and letting the local news station know that someone's about to blow up a big screen HDTV in broad daylight. He's an early-adopter type and probably would have bought a HD DVD player as soon as they came out, regardless of price. He now refuses to buy into any of it again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
163 Posts
Do they honestly believe this will stop anyone who really wants to copy HD over component? There will always be a work-around, a hack or what have you. It seems to me as though the lack of HD over component will make it slightly harder to copy content (thereby protecting themselves at the lowest possible security level) at the cost of screwing over millions of HDTV owners (likely customers) who adopted early before HDMI / DVI was available. Its not that HDTV owners with only component inputs didn't do enough research before buying. Even if they had done all the research they should have (and many did), there was no information to the contrary and therefore had no reason to believe their $3000 HDTV would be obsolete in 2 or 3 years.


I don't blame the MPAA for protecting themselves (even if it doesn't truly protect them very much), even if they are shooting themselves in the foot. You can't blame the HDTV manufacturers as they were simply producing what was available at the time. Having no one to blame doesn't change the fact that an already relatively small customer base for HD DVD players is being turned away.


If it matters, I have a front projector with HDMI input so this won't affect me. I did clue in my father in law, who owns a 56" Mits RP HDTV w/ only component in from 2 - 3 years ago (~$2800), that the new HD DVD players won't work with his HDTV. The first thing he said is that he plans on dragging it out onto the front lawn and letting the local news station know that someone's about to blow up a big screen HDTV in broad daylight. He's an early-adopter type and probably would have bought a HD DVD player as soon as they came out, regardless of price. He now refuses to buy into any of it again.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,172 Posts
When I bought my HDTV 3 years ago I never heard of HDMI or DVI. All I knew was 3 cable component input. Now I know and there is no way to tell my wife that the new TV is obsolete....as far as HDCP-DVD goes
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,957 Posts
Discussion Starter · #14 ·
I'd suspect that if it was Shell Oil or Merck who was infringing on the publics rights/privledges, or taking any of the anti-public steps taken by Hollywood(to increase profits), those same folks who are defenders of the Hollywood Elite would be screaming bloody murder. ;)

Quote:
Business decisions are made everyday and this is just another one, you can agree or disagree but it is only a business decision.
Business decisions that violate one's right to privacy and infringe on the public's long term rights and privledges are not business decisions that should be rationalized or defended... any moreso, than the pirate can defend his piracy by saying it is simply a business decision. Business decisions that hurt people in order to increase profits are just plain wrong, IMO.


The more I think about it, the more it seems the pirates and Hollywood are two of a kind... :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
524 Posts
Chris Gerard,


Why you continue to be the annoying antagonist is beyond me.. but anyway..

Quote:
If you have any reason why owners of motion pictures should be forced to release movies with unrestricted analog HDTV, then explain that.
Simple answer. Because HDCP does NOT prevent any serious piracy. You're probably scratching your head saying "well no, it's encrypted." But, for a mere $400, anyone and their grandma can get around this impenetrable copy protection and output "unrestricted" hd over component. You can bet the price will come down in time on this nifty device. So HDCP prevents SOME people from creating direct copies to their D-VHS player.. this is a non-issue in real life since VERY few people actually own D-vhs players... and it has a very simple workaround (read above).


So, what has restricting hd output to hdcp-dvi/hdmi output done? Absolutely nothing, but screw the early adopters. This irritates early adopters, because LOGICALLY it's dumb. I understand that business logic and "normal" logic are 2 different things, so why are you constantly siding w/ the MPAA? I have an almost 4 yr old 51" sony that I would love to use but I can't. If I fit in the N.O.W. group so be it, but stop acting as if we're crying over spilled milk.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,957 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Mike,


First, the DC-DA1 has gone up to $400... I bought mine for only $249 a few months ago.


Second, stopping some casual home copying of discs is only a small part of the business reason why Hollywood has decided to screw us. Restricting all HD content to ONLY an HDCP digital pathway is only the first required step for their true long term business plans. The second step is the addition of a "phone home" CP requirement on these units. Finally, once Hollywood strongly restricts all other free HD content to us home enthusiasts, they can easily move to a Pay-Per-Each-Use system whereby they monitor your players use, and charge your CC for each time you watch a movie. And unlike the days of DIVX, we'll have no HD alternative.


When that time comes, all native HD content watched at home will be PPEU.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
524 Posts
Merc,


While I am concerned about getting screwed I don't think it will ever get that bad. Mainly because the consumer just wouldn't pay for it. Most consumers are usually ignorant to new technology, but something like a PPEU would be pushing the limits. The problem with digital content is that it's very difficult to keep 100% protected. For video, HDCP is clearly the weak link. Regardless whether the hd player has a direct cat5 connection to the MPAA, the player will look like it's working normally because the encryption gets defeated after it leaves the player..


It's absurd to see the great lengths they're going to try and encrypt the actual discs, but then they completely drop the ball on the connection to the tv..? Personally I could careless, but it's almost like having a ferrari w/ bicycle wheels.


If the hdcp dvi -> component converter cost $250 then that means it should drop back down in the future. I'm sure we'll see more of these devices popping up in the future. :D
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
2,957 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Quote:
If the hdcp dvi -> component converter cost $250 then that means it should drop back down in the future. I'm sure we'll see more of these devices popping up in the future.
Don't forget that AACS can allow Hollywood to come into your home and break those HDTV HDCP adapters, anytime they darn well desire. :(


And, if you don't think a PPEU system would work (if we have no other choice) just take a look at PPV/VOD revenue in spite of all the choices we have today.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5,926 Posts
I have no idea whether the DC-DA1 will work with the new players but I suspect that product which appears to me to have been built in violation of the license will be subject to license revocation and will not work. We will have to wait and see. If anybody has seen a guarantee that the product will work, please point me to an explanation of how that can be.


Chris
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
524 Posts
Quote:
I have no idea whether the DC-DA1 will work with the new players but I suspect that product which appears to me to have been built in violation of the license will be subject to license revocation and will not work. We will have to wait and see. If anybody has seen a guarantee that the product will work, please point me to an explanation of how that can be.
Why wouldn't the device work? It seems like a fairly simple device to me. Also, I don't see how anything could be subject to any license revocation...?? #1, this device takes a signal and outputs another, and simply responds to the hdcp queries. #2, You can't "break" this device. HD players can't bypass this device because they use HDCP. HDCP is the designated HD encryption standard, and if they change anything to HDCP, it won't work on any tv's either. This nifty device works AFTER the player, so nothing can be done.. Think of it as "filtering out" the hdcp part. So....... only outputting hd via a digital connection does absolutely nothing for copy protection. Do you see why some people are just a little annoyed??


Here's a link for you... http://www.cdfreaks.com/news/12115


Merc, I understand the device will be deemed illegal. But the chances of the MPAA knocking on your door is about as good as finding Osama. :p So I expect plenty of people to use these for their legacy hdtvs. Regarding PPEU, PPV/VOD will always exist, but they will be through subscribers. Movies to own and watch however many times will be around too. PPV/VOD has always been around, only difference is that Erols started that.
 
1 - 20 of 38 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top