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While calibrating I set my music config to no subwoofer since I never want sub in my music. After upload, music sounded muffled,quiet and lacked detail. checking the response cutoffs i noticed that all except the 7.1 surrounds were significantly less. COuld this be the issue??
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler /forum/post/19241983


I concur. I played a DD test tone (not from the same disc as before, MACCA
) recorded at 0dBFS, and the Oppo outputs 2.4 Vrms, which is 1.6 dB higher than the nominal 2Vrms level normally associated with digital converters. The A-D in the Anthem is probably set to roughly 2V, so it all correlates perfectly with what is being reported about the 2 dB offset.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 /forum/post/19242102


Nice, so you've confirmed this is due to the OPPO output levels being slightly higher than the standard(though well within the 5.3Vrms max tolerance of the D2v.....btw rated input is 2.0Vrms as you suggested), which means this difference may not be present or may be a different level with other players.


I suppose one could just make all the adjustments in the OPPO(ie drop main channels by -2dB and increase sub channel by +3dB) since it's the culprit.


Cheers

Roger & MACCA350:


Here's the response i've just received from Oppo:

David,


We have confirmed with our engineering group that the reports on the forums are not a problem. The difference between the SUBWOOFER output of the 7.1ch analog jacks and the LFE channel of the HDMI multi-channel signal is by design and meets the requirements of Dolby Digital specifications. The player passed both Dolby and DTS certifications.


First, please note the different names of the signal. The analog output is called SUBWOOFER while the digital output is called the LFE channel. The Dolby specification titled "Dolby Licensee Information Manual: Dolby Digital Consumer Decoder" has a section (Chapter 4 section 4.7.1 Bass Management Fundamentals) that clarifies "LFE does not equal Subwoofer".


The HDMI multi-channel output is the original program on the disc. If the LFE signal is encoded at 0dBFS in the content, the HDMI output will have a 0dBFS LFE channel level.


The analog output implements the "Bass Management Configuration 1 (figure 4-10)" of the above Dolby specification. The behavior is as the followings:


When all speakers are set to large and the subwoofer is set to ON, the L, C, R, LS, RS channels are sent to the analog output without filtering and level adjustment. The LFE channel is attenuated 5dB (-5dB gain) and sent to the SUBWOOFER output.


When a main speaker is set to small, its bass signal is attenuated 15dB and then mixed with the attenuated LFE signal to become the SUBWOOFER output. Its corresponding main channel output is the original signal filtered by a high pass filter to block the bass. There is no level adjustment to the main channel.


Based on this implementation, if all main speakers are set to large and subwoofer set to ON, when a user tests the channel levels with a program source that has 0dBFS level in all channels, the SUBWOOFER output will be 5dB lower than the main channels via the analog 7.1ch output.


Should the user desires to maintain the same output level for all analog jacks, the subwoofer level trim function can be used. However this is not recommended. According to the above Dolby specification, in section 4.9.2 for "System Gain Structure", it says "The decision was made to not require the subwoofer gain stage in the DVD player and to require it in the host product. This decision was based on the fact that Source products have fixed maximum output levels and the fact that leaving the subwoofer signal scaled down 15dB helps keep those maximum signal levels at reasonable and comparable levels". Here "host product" refers to amplifiers and A/V receivers. The "scaled down 15dB reference" is there because in addition to the -5dB gain in the DVD player, the content program production guideline requires the LFE channel to be 10dB lower than the other channels.


As for the difference of output level between HDMI and MCH analog, it is caused by the different reference output voltage. The BDP-83's MCH analog output reference level is 2.4Vrms for 0dBFS. If an A/V receiver product uses 2Vrms for 0dBFS, the analog output converted from its HDMI input will be lower than the BDP-83's analog output. We selected the slightly higher reference level to fully utilize the dynamic range that the hardware can offer.


Best Regards,


Customer Service

OPPO Digital, Inc.

2629B Terminal Blvd.

Mountain View, CA 94043
[email protected]

Tel: 650-961-1118

Fax: 650-961-1119


So apparently, the problem is with Anthems lower maximum reference levels of 2Vrms versus Oppo's 2.4Vrms. Does this mean I need to reset the Oppo trims back to zero and increase the analog input levels by +2dB in the Anthem menu screen?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by runnerlk /forum/post/19253071


While calibrating I set my music config to no subwoofer since I never want sub in my music. After upload, music sounded muffled,quiet and lacked detail. checking the response cutoffs i noticed that all except the 7.1 surrounds were significantly less. COuld this be the issue??

Post the charts. You can select the Music charts in the View menu of the ARC application.


But keep in mind that with no subwoofer to support the low end of each speaker it is normal for ARC to try to use the speakers further down -- thus a lower cutoff for them.


----------------------------


Check that you have Room EQ turned ON for each Source using the Music configuration. And if the audio input is Analog, remember that you must use ANALOG-DSP for the Source so that the audio can be digitized and processed via ARC.

--Bob
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke /forum/post/19253163


Roger & MACCA350:


Here's the response i've just received from Oppo:

David,


We have confirmed with our engineering group that the reports on the forums are not a problem. The difference between the SUBWOOFER output of the 7.1ch analog jacks and the LFE channel of the HDMI multi-channel signal is by design and meets the requirements of Dolby Digital specifications. The player passed both Dolby and DTS certifications.


First, please note the different names of the signal. The analog output is called SUBWOOFER while the digital output is called the LFE channel. The Dolby specification titled "Dolby Licensee Information Manual: Dolby Digital Consumer Decoder" has a section (Chapter 4 section 4.7.1 Bass Management Fundamentals) that clarifies "LFE does not equal Subwoofer".


The HDMI multi-channel output is the original program on the disc. If the LFE signal is encoded at 0dBFS in the content, the HDMI output will have a 0dBFS LFE channel level.


The analog output implements the "Bass Management Configuration 1 (figure 4-10)" of the above Dolby specification. The behavior is as the followings:


When all speakers are set to large and the subwoofer is set to ON, the L, C, R, LS, RS channels are sent to the analog output without filtering and level adjustment. The LFE channel is attenuated 5dB (-5dB gain) and sent to the SUBWOOFER output.


When a main speaker is set to small, its bass signal is attenuated 15dB and then mixed with the attenuated LFE signal to become the SUBWOOFER output. Its corresponding main channel output is the original signal filtered by a high pass filter to block the bass. There is no level adjustment to the main channel.


Based on this implementation, if all main speakers are set to large and subwoofer set to ON, when a user tests the channel levels with a program source that has 0dBFS level in all channels, the SUBWOOFER output will be 5dB lower than the main channels via the analog 7.1ch output.


Should the user desires to maintain the same output level for all analog jacks, the subwoofer level trim function can be used. However this is not recommended. According to the above Dolby specification, in section 4.9.2 for "System Gain Structure", it says "The decision was made to not require the subwoofer gain stage in the DVD player and to require it in the host product. This decision was based on the fact that Source products have fixed maximum output levels and the fact that leaving the subwoofer signal scaled down 15dB helps keep those maximum signal levels at reasonable and comparable levels". Here "host product" refers to amplifiers and A/V receivers. The "scaled down 15dB reference" is there because in addition to the -5dB gain in the DVD player, the content program production guideline requires the LFE channel to be 10dB lower than the other channels.


As for the difference of output level between HDMI and MCH analog, it is caused by the different reference output voltage. The BDP-83's MCH analog output reference level is 2.4Vrms for 0dBFS. If an A/V receiver product uses 2Vrms for 0dBFS, the analog output converted from its HDMI input will be lower than the BDP-83's analog output. We selected the slightly higher reference level to fully utilize the dynamic range that the hardware can offer.


Best Regards,


Customer Service

OPPO Digital, Inc.

2629B Terminal Blvd.

Mountain View, CA 94043
[email protected]

Tel: 650-961-1118

Fax: 650-961-1119


So apparently, the problem is with Anthems lower maximum reference levels of 2Vrms versus Oppo's 2.4Vrms. Does this mean I need to reset the Oppo trims back to zero and increase the analog input levels by +2dB in the Anthem menu screen?

No. It is two separate issues. They are putting the onus on the Dolby spec -- Roger can you confirm they are reading that spec correctly?


"Standard" LFE for a Source which is not doing bass management is 10dB down, not 15dB down. If Dolby is recommending 15dB down they are going against pretty much what every AVR with multi-channel inputs expects as far as I know for the case where the Source is not doing bass management.


As long as you have all speakers set to Large in the Oppo, its "subwoofer" output should have the headroom to carry LFE that is really only 10dB down. Which means you can do the boost in the Oppo.


The 2.4 volt vs 2.0 volt is a separate issue. Oppo is saying 2.4 volt preserves more dynamic range in the output. That's a design choice, not an error. To preserve that design choice, if you want to, you must not lower the output levels in the Oppo. But that means analog and HDMI are seen at different levels in the D2v.


So you can fix both of these by +5dB volume trim in the Oppo for the subwoofer output and -2dB analog input level trim in the D2v for the 6 channel analog input. Whether the D2v can still preserve the dynamic range when the analog input is trimmed down like that is something I can't answer. You could of course live with the 2dB analog vs. HDMI level difference (equal on all channels after making the +5dB subwoofer output change in the Oppo as just stated) and avoid that question, which would be my recommendation. I.e., JUST do the +5dB subwoofer volume trim in the Oppo.

--Bob
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau /forum/post/19253227


No. It is two separate issues. They are putting the onus on the Dolby spec -- Roger can you confirm they are reading that spec correctly?


"Standard" LFE for a Source which is not doing bass management is 10dB down, not 15dB down. If Dolby is recommending 15dB down they are going against pretty much what every AVR with multi-channel inputs expects as far as I know for the case where the Source is not doing bass management.


As long as you have all speakers set to Large in the Oppo, its "subwoofer" output should have the headroom to carry LFE that is really only 10dB down. Which means you can do the boost in the Oppo.


The 2.4 volt vs 2.0 volt is a separate issue. Oppo is saying 2.4 volt preserves more dynamic range in the output. That's a design choice, not an error. To preserve that design choice, if you want to, you must not lower the output levels in the Oppo. But that means analog and HDMI are seen at different levels in the D2v.


So you can fix both of these by +5dB volume trim in the Oppo for the subwoofer output and -2dB analog input level trim in the D2v for the 6 channel analog input. Whether the D2v can still preserve the dynamic range when the analog input is trimmed down like that is something I can't answer. You could of course live with the analog vs. HDMI level difference and avoid that question, which would be my recommendation. I.e., JUST do the +5dB subwoofer volume trim in the Oppo.

--Bob

OK...will comply as you suggested originally with level EQ. Passing up not to EQ is too much of a temptation
. On the Dolby level definition, I think they said the -15dB attenuation is for the small speaker setting and not the large setting, if i read their mail correctly.
 

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Here's the critical quote:

Quote:
When all speakers are set to large and the subwoofer is set to ON, the L, C, R, LS, RS channels are sent to the analog output without filtering and level adjustment. The LFE channel is attenuated 5dB (-5dB gain) and sent to the SUBWOOFER output.

That's 5dB additional down from the -10dB already in place by design for LFE content. That's what I disagree with. I don't think LFE should be attenuated further at all in this specific case.


They are claiming this is appropriate because the Oppo output is a "subwoofer" output and not an "LFE" output. But AVRs that expect to do bass management themselves on multi-channel analog input are, I believe, pretty much across the board expecting what comes in on that cable to be 10dB down, not 15dB, regardless of the name used on the output jack.


Again, I'm hoping Roger can confirm or refute Oppo's reading of the Dolby recommendations here.

--Bob
 

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Quote:
So you can fix both of these by +5dB volume trim in the Oppo for the subwoofer output and -2dB analog input level trim in the D2v for the 6 channel analog input. Whether the D2v can still preserve the dynamic range when the analog input is trimmed down like that is something I can't answer. You could of course live with the analog vs. HDMI level difference and avoid that question, which would be my recommendation. I.e., JUST do the +5dB subwoofer volume trim in the Oppo.

--Bob

Boy is this getting confusing. I'm reading 2 different approaches here so forgive me if I have misread or interpreted whats been said. Currently I have all speakers set to Large with -2db trim and +3 just for the subwoofer in the Oppo, using the 6.1 analog outs. The Anthem is set to 0 for Analog. Is this correct? Bob and Macca your also mentioned that we JUST need to adjust the sub trim only to +5 in the Oppo?


What is the correct and final setting we need to implement for those that are using Oppo's analog stage connected to the Anthem A2v. Apologies for going over old ground but reading the last page suggest 2 differnet approaches....+3db and/or +5db for the Sub.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SimonNo10 /forum/post/19253330


Boy is this getting confusing. I'm reading 2 different approaches here so forgive me if I have misread or interpreted whats been said. Currently I have all speakers set to Large with -2db trim and +3 just for the subwoofer in the Oppo, using the 6.1 analog outs. The Anthem is set to 0 for Analog. Is this correct? Bob and Macca your also mentioned that we JUST need to adjust the sub trim only to +5 in the Oppo?


What is the correct and final setting we need to implement for those that are using Oppo's analog stage connected to the Anthem A2v. Apologies for going over old ground but reading the last page suggest 2 differnet approaches....+3db and/or +5db for the Sub.

Reread what I just posted.


You have to boost the Oppo's LFE output by 5dB. I recommend you do that in the player.


If, and ONLY IF, you care about "fixing" the 2dB level difference between the analog and HDMI audio then you must go further. Oppo states that is in there to allow for more dynamic range in their analog output. So to preserve that design choice do not do the attenuation in the Oppo. Thus the only change in the Oppo is the +5dB subwoofer output volume trim.


Meanwhile in the D2v you can lower the analog input level for the 6-channel analog input by 2dB and achieve that attenuation so that analog and HDMI result in the same output volume. I don't know whether you will lose the dynamic range the Oppo was trying to preserve if you do so, but if this convenience is important to you, that's how you adjust it.


Personally, I would not bother about getting analog and HDMI levels matched. And so the ONLY change would be the +5dB subwoofer output volume trim in the Oppo. No adjustments at all in the D2v.


That will yield proper balance on all channels of the analog input, but the analog (all channels equally) will be 2dB louder than the same content played on the HDMI input.


-------------------------------------


Keep in mind, I still think Oppo has this 5dB LFE/subwoofer issue wrong. Stay tuned.


As stated above, the entirely separate 2dB issue is a design choice on Oppo's part. Not an error.

--Bob
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau /forum/post/19253355


Reread what I just posted.



-------------------------------------


Keep in mind, I still think Oppo has this 5dB LFE/subwoofer issue wrong. Stay tuned.


As stated above, the entirely separate 2dB issue is a design choice on Oppo's part. Not an error.

--Bob

On a very minor note, the 2dB difference is actually about 1.6dB or 20*log(2.4V/2.0V) . Hence its more precise to reduce the level by 1.5dB, correct? The original 2dB was just an estimate I believe.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke /forum/post/0



On a very minor note, the 2dB difference is actually about 1.6dB or 20*log(2.4V/2.0V) . Hence its more precise to reduce the level by 1.5dB, correct? The original 2dB was just an estimate I believe.

It's a wise child!



(Seriously. I'd have to use a calculator for that. Or at least a table of log values. Where did I put that slide rule.)


Again, call me reactionary, but the whole idea of precisely matching analog and HDMI volumes has precious little value in my opinion.

--Bob
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dewboy3 /forum/post/0


How do you go about downloading ARC 3.0 Beta version?

Thanks

Dewboy

Send an email to Anthem tech support asking for the access info. I'm not trying to be difficult. It's no big secret, but Anthem has asked us not to post the access info here.

--Bob
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau /forum/post/19253355


Keep in mind, I still think Oppo has this 5dB LFE/subwoofer issue wrong. Stay tuned.

I heard back today, and Oppo confirms it works as we found, the LFE channel is at -5 dB regardless of speaker setting. But they said this is how Dolby instructed them to do it. So now I'm checking with some friends at Dolby to see about that.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler /forum/post/0


I heard back today, and Oppo confirms it works as we found, the LFE channel is at -5 dB regardless of speaker setting. But they said this is how Dolby instructed them to do it. So now I'm checking with some friends at Dolby to see about that.

You see? Normally I would expect DTS to be behind confusion like this.


--Bob
 

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Longtime lurker first time poster in this most informative thread. To those who have contributed thank you all, but especially to Bob "The Man" Pariseau. I could not imagine how many Anthem products have been sold because of this thread. Mine for one.


My question is are there any issues loading ARC 3.0 with the original D2 with v1.33 software, green video board and toroidal transformer?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by tbailey /forum/post/19254278


Longtime lurker first time poster in this most informative thread. To those who have contributed thank you all, but especially to Bob "The Man" Pariseau. I could not imagine how many Anthem products have been sold because of this thread. Mine for one.


My question is are there any issues loading ARC 3.0 with the original D2 with v1.33 software, green video board and toroidal transformer?

None. Enjoy.


If your prior version of ARC is really old, be aware that for quite some time now, ARC gets installed into a different folder than was originally used. This will only affect you if you expect the pair of licensing/calibration files to survive from the prior install.


You can avoid having to care about this by copying those two files from your original ARC install disc into the ARC kit you downloaded -- into the same folder as the Setup.exe program (the installer) prior to the install. The installer will copy them to where they need to be.


These two files are easy to spot. The have names made up of numbers -- the serial number of your Anthem and the serial number of your ARC mic.

--Bob
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke; /forum/post/0


On a very minor note, the 2dB difference is actually about 1.6dB or 20*log(2.4V/2.0V) . Hence its more precise to reduce the level by 1.5dB, correct? The original 2dB was just an estimate I believe.

More precise to bring the OPPO's analog outputs in line with industry standard, but not necessarily more precise when level matching the entire chain of the system.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau; /forum/post/0


Again, call me reactionary, but the whole idea of precisely matching analog and HDMI volumes has precious little value in my opinion.

--Bob

I guess it depends on how you value the issue. Being a calibrator I probably place more value on this than others



Here's a couple of points I'd add in addition to ensuring correct reference levels:

1. If someone wants to compare the qualities of using analog or HDMI through listening evaluation, level matching is essential(usually within 0.1dB) to ensure a fair comparison.

2. Though there's little literature on how Dolby Volume Cinema Reference actually works, I believe it is similar to Audyssey's Dynamic Eq/Vol in that they apply adjustments based on where the volume control is set in relation to reference level. So if reference is not accurately set for sources their implementation will be inaccurate.

3. Sure we're talking a relatively small adjustment. Would it be more of an issue if the variation were say 10dB? If so, then I guess the issue isn't about the fact there is a variation, but the level of that variation. Given the general 0.5dB level adjustment accuracy in electronics I'd suggest that's our aim.


Cheers
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler; /forum/post/0


I heard back today, and Oppo confirms it works as we found, the LFE channel is at -5 dB regardless of speaker setting. But they said this is how Dolby instructed them to do it. So now I'm checking with some friends at Dolby to see about that.

That's quite strange Rodger, maybe there was a miscommunication somewhere along the lines



Cheers
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler /forum/post/19253809


I heard back today, and Oppo confirms it works as we found, the LFE channel is at -5 dB regardless of speaker setting. But they said this is how Dolby instructed them to do it. So now I'm checking with some friends at Dolby to see about that.

Roger,


Thanks for the help you provide in all things Dolby in this forum(
), considering you own an excellent Classe prepro and not an Anthem processor at all
!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by MACCA350 /forum/post/19254657


That's quite strange Rodger, maybe there was a miscommunication somewhere along the lines

That's what I'm hoping.

Quote:
Originally Posted by dmusoke /forum/post/19254804


Roger,


Thanks for the help you provide in all things Dolby in this forum(
), considering you own an excellent Classe prepro and not an Anthem processor at all
!

Thanks!
 
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