Awhile ago I built three large subwoofer boxes into the ceiling of an addition I am now completing. The thought was to run all three front channels as large, using the added subwoofers in line with my B&W 600 series bookshelf speakers. I'd power the subs with plate amps, and then run out to the other speaker. The size of these boxes is 9.85 cu ft, and finding a driver for them is difficult since most are meant for small sealed boxes. I've found the Dayton "infinite baffle" subs at PartsExpress, and thought these would work well in this application. Does anyone have any experience with these speakers, what size box did they use for the application, and will they work okay in a down-firing application such as the ceiling mount?
Any experience with Dayton IB Subwoofers
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So you have three individual enclosures built into the ceiling, and each one is 9.85ft^3 in size.
Can you use more than one driver per enclosure? What is behind the enclosures, attic space?
Can you use more than one driver per enclosure? What is behind the enclosures, attic space?
The Dayton IB sub is a decent sub for the money. There are better if you have a bigger budget.
Why didn't you go with a true IB? Also, just because a sub is designed for a small enclosure doesn't mean it won't work in a larger one. There are a lot of subs that will work great in a large sealed box. Just find one that has a low Fs and gives you a Qtc of .5 or so in your box.
-Robert
Why didn't you go with a true IB? Also, just because a sub is designed for a small enclosure doesn't mean it won't work in a larger one. There are a lot of subs that will work great in a large sealed box. Just find one that has a low Fs and gives you a Qtc of .5 or so in your box.
-Robert
I'm with Willd. Why not go for a true IB? Is there something other than attic space up above?
Quote:
Why didn't you go with a true IB?
I'm with Willd. Why not go for a true IB? Is there something other than attic space up above?
The boxes are built against a solid roofing, but the ceiling in this area forms a soffit at an 8' height. When you state "true IB", did you mean why not just let all three speakers vent to the soffit area? I could use multiple drivers, but again, that's added cost. I was hoping for a single 12", but a 15" would certainly work, such as the Daytons. Without modeling software, MacSpeakerz hasn't upgraded in forever, I'm not sure where I should be with a driver choice, and the Dayton seemed a bit foolproof for the application I'd like to try. Any suggestions for other drivers? Any reservations of containing the Dayton in a large box?
The IB15" isn't the best choice for any box sub. Given it's high Qts it's designed to operate in 'free-air' aka a dipole or "true" IB sub . It's doubtful that a single lowish Xmax driver like the PE-IB15 would be adequate in all but the smallest rooms
More on "true" IB subs here
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/
and
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelyb...Bmanifold.html
More on "true" IB subs here
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelybaffled/
and
http://home.comcast.net/~infinitelyb...Bmanifold.html
Interesting reading, and thanks for that. The Dayton's Vas is 11 cf, so opening those boxes that I've built would be the way to go if using those drivers. What I now need to do is see what the contained volume of the soffited ceiling area is, and see if it contains enough volume for three IB woofers. Anyone want to suggest a driver 12-15" that would work nicely in the boxes before I bore holes in them???
Recommending drivers is usually based on the size of the room, distance from the sub to the listening position, desired output levels and the budget.
Okay, let's say a driver in the $125-150 range, suitable for a large box near 10 cu ft, and for bass extension of the bookshelf speakers to use them in the "large" position. I'd power them with 250watt plate amps, yet still have my receiver set to crossover at 40-50Hz to the main subwoofer channel. Consider these to be woofers for the satellites rather than true subs. The room is about 18' x 26' with all hard surfaces, floor and ceiling, and the three boxes are located in a ceiling drop about 5 feet apart, located about 7-8' from the listening position, and about 4' away from the mounting of the bookshelf satellites. The main sub will be located in the corner of the room to the front of the listening position and to the right of the display.
I'm sorry to say but honestly you're going about this the wrong way.
'Woofers' should be close to the satellites. The common way to do this is using bass bins containing a couple 10"-12" drivers. These bins are used as the stands for the satellites. That avoids smearing the stereo image which is what's going to happen with woofers in the ceiling.
The $125-$150 budget barely buys a decent 10", let alone anything with enough displacement to provide adequate bass for a room that size.
If you have to buy something in that price range get the PE-DVC-15.
If you can raise the budget a bit look at the .Q series drivers from www.ficaraudio.com . Their drivers include shipping, so they're very close to your budget. We've used the .Q18" in IB subs and they work well. The .Q15" will move a lot more air than the standard 15" PE drivers.
'Woofers' should be close to the satellites. The common way to do this is using bass bins containing a couple 10"-12" drivers. These bins are used as the stands for the satellites. That avoids smearing the stereo image which is what's going to happen with woofers in the ceiling.
The $125-$150 budget barely buys a decent 10", let alone anything with enough displacement to provide adequate bass for a room that size.
If you have to buy something in that price range get the PE-DVC-15.
If you can raise the budget a bit look at the .Q series drivers from www.ficaraudio.com . Their drivers include shipping, so they're very close to your budget. We've used the .Q18" in IB subs and they work well. The .Q15" will move a lot more air than the standard 15" PE drivers.
I have an IB with with the PE IB15's. I originally purchased these when the 15in sub market was dry. There were good subs on the horizon, but no materialized dates. The PE IB15s are a decent sub for the money and I've made them work for me. However, if I were starting over I'd definitely shop around. The PE IB15s are acceptable for what they are, but there are plenty of higher quality subwoofers out there.
To comment on wanting to add subwoofers to your main channels... I'm running Polk Audio's cs1000p and rt2000p's for my frontstage which all have built in subs. The cs1000p has two 6.5" subs and the rt2000p's have dual 8" subs in them. I'm listing my setup because I didn't always have a setup like this. I started out running bookshelves and went through a series of upgrades over a year to get where I'm at now. When I had any other speaker I ran them as "large" since it produced a more full sound. So I concluded that if I got bigger speakers to produce an even more full sound, that the system would sound better and better. However, now that I have a frontstage that responds well I've changed my mind about this. Running my mains as "large" muddies the sound and detracts from the details that are in movies. Most of the "surround sound" you hear is in the higher frequencies; raindrops, things panning left to right, gunshots, etc. So after building a really good subwoofer, crossing my main channels over to it, then EQ'ing the subwoofer to blend with the mains, I prefer this configuration. I might have lost a little bit of bass directionality, but that would be nitpicking the setup since overall the clarity and response of the system is much improved. In summation, I'd make sure that I had a capable subwoofer before adding subs to the main channels. This is where an IB configuration would suit you well since it seems you're halfway there.
If you are still going to build woofers for your mains, then definitely bring them in closer in proximity to your bookshelves. I was going to build woofers before purchasing the front stage I have now, but I was concerned of a few things: How to cross them over properly to the speakers they are coupled with, using plate amps could mean you're using a lower quality amp than what the other speakers have, does the sound quality of the woofers match that of the other speakers, and how does placement of the woofers affect the sound quality of that channel's speaker system? To me, I was introducing several problems and it seemed like I needed to know speaker theory to solve them; perhaps I was overcomplicating the issue, though. So if you build the enclosures, add power, cross them over properly, how much money would you have invested in them? Would selling your bookshelves and couple those funds with the woofers you would build allow you to buy higher quality speakers for your front stage? And perhaps those higher quality speakers would have the frequency response you're looking for, too? (Those questions are rhetorical, BTW.)
Hopefully I'm not confusing the issue, or hopefully I'm not telling you things you already know. Perhaps my experiences could help you out.
To comment on wanting to add subwoofers to your main channels... I'm running Polk Audio's cs1000p and rt2000p's for my frontstage which all have built in subs. The cs1000p has two 6.5" subs and the rt2000p's have dual 8" subs in them. I'm listing my setup because I didn't always have a setup like this. I started out running bookshelves and went through a series of upgrades over a year to get where I'm at now. When I had any other speaker I ran them as "large" since it produced a more full sound. So I concluded that if I got bigger speakers to produce an even more full sound, that the system would sound better and better. However, now that I have a frontstage that responds well I've changed my mind about this. Running my mains as "large" muddies the sound and detracts from the details that are in movies. Most of the "surround sound" you hear is in the higher frequencies; raindrops, things panning left to right, gunshots, etc. So after building a really good subwoofer, crossing my main channels over to it, then EQ'ing the subwoofer to blend with the mains, I prefer this configuration. I might have lost a little bit of bass directionality, but that would be nitpicking the setup since overall the clarity and response of the system is much improved. In summation, I'd make sure that I had a capable subwoofer before adding subs to the main channels. This is where an IB configuration would suit you well since it seems you're halfway there.
If you are still going to build woofers for your mains, then definitely bring them in closer in proximity to your bookshelves. I was going to build woofers before purchasing the front stage I have now, but I was concerned of a few things: How to cross them over properly to the speakers they are coupled with, using plate amps could mean you're using a lower quality amp than what the other speakers have, does the sound quality of the woofers match that of the other speakers, and how does placement of the woofers affect the sound quality of that channel's speaker system? To me, I was introducing several problems and it seemed like I needed to know speaker theory to solve them; perhaps I was overcomplicating the issue, though. So if you build the enclosures, add power, cross them over properly, how much money would you have invested in them? Would selling your bookshelves and couple those funds with the woofers you would build allow you to buy higher quality speakers for your front stage? And perhaps those higher quality speakers would have the frequency response you're looking for, too? (Those questions are rhetorical, BTW.)
Hopefully I'm not confusing the issue, or hopefully I'm not telling you things you already know. Perhaps my experiences could help you out.
A voice of reason, and helpful in keeping my mind from running free! Thanks all for your responses. As Thomas stated above, I'm probably attacking this in the wrong way, and your comments also bring about some food for thought. Crossover tweaking from the woofer section to the B&Ws may be more of a hassel than what the added bass would deliver. The last thing I'd want is to muddy the sound of the speakers that I now enjoy, so it may be a worthless project, and just buying larger fronts, and/or a second subwoofer, may be the better way to go.
Quote:
Originally Posted by FroDaddy /forum/post/0
...Would selling your bookshelves and couple those funds with the woofers you would build allow you to buy higher quality speakers for your front stage?....
A voice of reason, and helpful in keeping my mind from running free! Thanks all for your responses. As Thomas stated above, I'm probably attacking this in the wrong way, and your comments also bring about some food for thought. Crossover tweaking from the woofer section to the B&Ws may be more of a hassel than what the added bass would deliver. The last thing I'd want is to muddy the sound of the speakers that I now enjoy, so it may be a worthless project, and just buying larger fronts, and/or a second subwoofer, may be the better way to go.
If you can use bass bins as stands for your 600 series, then the rest is easy provided you have pre-amp outputs for the front main speakers.
Depending on the output levels you want or need use a pair of the PE RS 10" or 12" in sealed boxes.
To create the crossover for the bass bins you'd use a Behringer CX3400, and an appropriate power amp. Something like the low cost Behringer A500 is perfect for this application.
Don't think the Behringer CX3400 is going to cause sonic deterioration in the SQ from the mains. It's not, it's as sonically transparent as my Marchand XM9 that costs 5 times more.
With this done move on to your sub and you won't want the boxes. Follow the lead of the hundreds that have IB subs. You won't regret it
Depending on the output levels you want or need use a pair of the PE RS 10" or 12" in sealed boxes.
To create the crossover for the bass bins you'd use a Behringer CX3400, and an appropriate power amp. Something like the low cost Behringer A500 is perfect for this application.
Don't think the Behringer CX3400 is going to cause sonic deterioration in the SQ from the mains. It's not, it's as sonically transparent as my Marchand XM9 that costs 5 times more.
With this done move on to your sub and you won't want the boxes. Follow the lead of the hundreds that have IB subs. You won't regret it
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