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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Looking for opinions of anny former DLP FP owners that like the "pop" and sharpeness of DLP that made the switch to an RS10/20.



My 720p DLP projector just died an I need a replacement.



I have a Pioneer 60" plasma and a 46" Samsung series 6 LCD. We don't like the LCD panel, to the point that we are going to move it to the basement for the kids and replace it with a 50" Panasonic G15 panel.


My neighbour has a Panasonic AE3000 that I don't like at all because it lacks the sharpness and "pop".


I'm considering waiting for the Infocus 8602 to come out, seeing if I can justify the Planar 8150 or buying a JVC RS10 or RS20.


For the former DLPers, does the RS10/20 have enough pop and sharpness? Would you guys pulll the trigger on the JVC again?


The planar seems like a good machine, but it seems that most chose the RS20 in that snack bracket.


I didn't know waiting for CEDIA was so hard with a dark theater room



Thanks!
 

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I think the rs10 has enough sharpness, dont think it has enough pop though. I have considered switching to a 3 chipper (sony) so i can do some extensive testing on the FI features ive found DLPs lacking, but so far, ive been to much of a chicken to do so. I think i would regret it if i did. if i dont try, ill never know though.


If youre happy with DLP, you will be playing it safe by getting another one.


There are alot of people loving the JVC`s though, and you might do so to so if you dont try one, youll never know.
 

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The 8150 is an awesome machine. Everything that's great about DLP, with great black levels/CR to boot.


I really thought about the RS20, I'm sure it's a great machine. But when it came down to it, the questions about motion handling and lack of "ANSI" contrast/pop/sharpness were outside my "security blanket"/comfort zone on a purchase that size.


I'm really glad I picked up a Planar. I'll put it this way, you may well be happy with an RS20 after owning a older DLP, but I'm confident you'd love a Planar.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for the feedback. I have no doubt that the new RS will be much better than my old DLP, but we would keep our 720p DLP over the Panasonic, even though it has more resolution.


Anyone have an RS10/20 now that used to have a DLP?


The Planar is tempting, but the price is about the same as it was in mid 2008 when I first toyed with upgrading. It may not be rational, but that bugs me enough to almost not buy it.
It should sell for much less now, especially so close to CEDIA.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiney /forum/post/17029946


The Planar is tempting, but the price is about the same as it was in mid 2008 when I first toyed with upgrading. It may not be rational, but that bugs me enough to almost not buy it.
It should sell for much less now, especially so close to CEDIA.

Why? Is it a bad price? It's performance hasn't dropped, and there doesn't appear to be a new model coming out.



It should be reasonably close to the RS20 price wise (it too is about the same price as it has been it came out).
 

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I'm in a similar boat (but the other way around) - I currently own an FPJ1, and there's an HT3000E that just became available for a very good price, I'm wondering if the sacrifice of on/off CR would be worth the rather large jump in ANSI CR. Any opinions on this? Last DLP machine I owned was an H79, since then it's been 2 RS1's and now the FPJ1.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot /forum/post/17030634


I'm in a similar boat (but the other way around) - I currently own an FPJ1, and there's an HT3000E that just became available for a very good price, I'm wondering if the sacrifice of on/off CR would be worth the rather large jump in ANSI CR. Any opinions on this? Last DLP machine I owned was an H79, since then it's been 2 RS1's and now the FPJ1.

I'd say it depends on what you like in an image and on whether or not your screen and room conditions will support what you like. What kind of screen do you have and what kind of room conditions do you have? The HT3000E has lots of lumens, but do you like it bright? Do you have a large screen? The HT3000E can have enough ANSI contrast to put impressive dimensionality into the image, but you have to have a decent enough bat cave to allow that. Some screens will support your attempt to get dimensionality better than others. For instance, the popular Firehawk would be much better than the popular High Power.
 

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ANSI contrast measurement has little or no practical value. Unless you are going a full magnitude increase you are just pretending to see a difference. Stop fooling yourself.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd /forum/post/17030788


I'd say it depends on what you like in an image and on whether or not your screen and room conditions will support what you like. What kind of screen do you have and what kind of room conditions do you have? The HT3000E has lots of lumens, but do you like it bright? Do you have a large screen? The HT3000E can have enough ANSI contrast to put impressive dimensionality into the image, but you have to have a decent enough bat cave to allow that. Some screens will support your attempt to get dimensionality better than others. For instance, the popular Firehawk would be much better than the popular High Power.

My screen is only a 98" diagonal 1.78:1 SW4500 AT screen in a completely light controlled room with dark walls, so I don't need the horsepower of the HT3000e. I've never had a setup that was over 11ftL - which is my current setup - but it seems that people who have 20ftL+ setups really enjoy them, so I'm curious to try it out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/17030867


ANSI contrast measurement has little or no practical value. Unless you are going a full magnitude increase you are just pretending to see a difference. Stop fooling yourself.

I've enjoyed my JVC's RS projectors as much as the next guy, however I am also capable of admitting that the HT3000E bests the RS2 in just about every measurable quality - optical quality, panel uniformity, convergence, greyscale accuracy, color accuracy - except on/off CR. Even the BenQ W10000 that I had in my theater for a time - which has anywhere between 2x-3x the ANSI CR of the RS2, depending on whose measurements you use - had a notably different picture that was in many ways better than that of the RS1 that I also owned. So, I'm soliciting advice from people who have actual experience with both machines as to whether the differences amount to a better picture or not. I'm already well aware of your obsession with On/Off CR, however that's not what I was asking about.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot /forum/post/17030982


I've never had a setup that was over 11ftL - which is my current setup - but it seems that people who have 20ftL+ setups really enjoy them, so I'm curious to try it out.

I love a bright image and many of my local forum friends do as well. Three of them have High Powers. One used to have one, but wanted a wider screen and went with a Studiotek because the Lumis he ordered would be plenty bright without screen gain. That was fine with me, because I got a good deal on his High Power.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot /forum/post/17030982


So, I'm soliciting advice from people who have actual experience with both machines as to whether the differences amount to a better picture or not.

I have seen maybe five RS1s and an RS2 and now have 721 hours on my RS20, so I do have actual experience with the JVCs.


I have seen an HT3000E on a 100" diagonal 16x9 Firehawk in a showroom and was very impressed by the detail and the dimensionality of the image. I've also seen an HT380E on a High Power in a dark room where I did not notice any better dimensionality than I could see with the RS20 that we were comparing to the HT380E. There were three of us there and the overall consensus was that the RS20 looked better. Half the reason for that was how the combination of the ISCO III in front of the projectors, the screen being a High Power, and the reflections off the rug worked together to weaken the DLP pop and the other half the reason was the RS20's blacks were just so darn impressive and its excellent native contrast affected not just blacks but all colors.


Right after my first of two demos of the HT3000E/Firehawk, I went to another showroom to demo an RS1/Silverstar. Totally opposite experience. No dimensionality, but haunting blacks and over-the-top whites and bright colors at the same time. Two of the most impressive images I have seen, but totally different. It would be ideal to be able to have the best of both worlds. Maybe the Lumis can provide that. I have seen a Lumis and was very impressed by it. It beats the HT3000E in every way and has the most impressive blacks I have seen on a DLP. Unless you are willing to buy a Lumis, though, you have to decide which features mean the most to you.


My experiences were different for the HT3000E and the HT380E, and that's why I asked a few questions earlier to get a feel for your setup, but it sounds like you have the setup to get the most out of the HT3000E. But again, it depends on what features mean the most to you. The black levels of the RS20 go a huge, huge way toward making for an impressive image. So much that I would not recommend the HT3000E over it unless you not only really like what the HT3000E does well, but have the room and the screen to allow it to do so.


Just curious, what kind of price is the HT3000E you are looking at?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/17030867


ANSI contrast measurement has little or no practical value.

That is quite simply not true. Maybe as a subjective opinion, but as a factual statement you can't back that up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/17030867


Unless you are going a full magnitude increase you are just pretending to see a difference.

Isn't "a full magnitude increase" exactly what you're getting when going from a JVC to a good DLP?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tryg /forum/post/17030867


Stop fooling yourself.

Stop fooling others. The JVC's are great machines, but there's no reason why we can't be objective about the positive and negative aspects of them compared to other projectors, they are not better than DLP's in every way. They are better in some ways, and worse in others.


(for the record, I know I'm not going to make you change your mind, I'm just delivering some counterweight to what I believe is poor advice, then people can choose for themselves who they want to listen to).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd /forum/post/17031116


I love a bright image and many of my local forum friends do as well. Three of them have High Powers. One used to have one, but wanted a wider screen and went with a Studiotek because the Lumis he ordered would be plenty bright without screen gain. That was fine with me, because I got a good deal on his High Power.



I have seen maybe five RS1s and an RS2 and now have 721 hours on my RS20, so I do have actual experience with the JVCs.


I have seen an HT3000E on a 100" diagonal 16x9 Firehawk in a showroom and was very impressed by the detail and the dimensionality of the image. I've also seen an HT380E on a High Power in a dark room where I did not notice any better dimensionality than I could see with the RS20 that we were comparing to the HT380E. There were three of us there and the overall consensus was that the RS20 looked better. Half the reason for that was how the combination of the ISCO III in front of the projectors, the screen being a High Power, and the reflections off the rug worked together to weaken the DLP pop and the other half the reason was the RS20's blacks were just so darn impressive and its excellent native contrast affected not just blacks but all colors.


Right after my first of two demos of the HT3000E/Firehawk, I went to another showroom to demo an RS1/Silverstar. Totally opposite experience. No dimensionality, but haunting blacks and over-the-top whites and bright colors at the same time. Two of the most impressive images I have seen, but totally different. It would be ideal to be able to have the best of both worlds. Maybe the Lumis can provide that. I have seen a Lumis and was very impressed by it. It beats the HT3000E in every way and has the most impressive blacks I have seen on a DLP. Unless you are willing to buy a Lumis, though, you have to decide which features mean the most to you.


My experiences were different for the HT3000E and the HT380E, and that's why I asked a few questions earlier to get a feel for your setup, but it sounds like you have the setup to get the most out of the HT3000E. But again, it depends on what features mean the most to you. The black levels of the RS20 go a huge, huge way toward making for an impressive image. So much that I would not recommend the HT3000E over it unless you not only really like what the HT3000E does well, but have the room and the screen to allow it to do so.


Just curious, what kind of price is the HT3000E you are looking at?

Thanks for all the insight, it's greatly appreciated. The blacks and low light performance on the FPJ1/RS2 are hard to steer away from, that's for sure. I'm also thankful enough to have a Radiance to properly dial in its greyscale and gamut.


Unfortunately, a Lumis is currently out of my price range - I'm looking at the HT3000E for sale on V'gon by another AVS Forum member. I've been thinking about possibly switching back from my FPJ1 to DLP, and the HT3000E caught my eye. But, I could have an RS20 for the same price, and frankly I wouldn't find the RS20 worth the $2K premium over what I could sell the FPJ1 for.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by hrd /forum/post/17031116


Half the reason for that was how the combination of the ISCO III in front of the projectors, the screen being a High Power, and the reflections off the rug worked together to weaken the DLP pop

A correctly installed ISCOIII has no such effect.


It simply has a 3%-4% light loss due to its nominal transmittance of 96%. This is not visible to the naked eye.


The effect on ANSI CR is almost nil. There have been erroneous reports claiming it had a large effect on ANSI, that has been categorically proven to be wrong.


It has been tested to below the margin of error for ANSI reporting.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by epiney /forum/post/17028585


Looking for opinions of anny former DLP FP owners that like the "pop" and sharpeness of DLP that made the switch to an RS10/20.

The truth is that you should see for yourself any projector that you are interested in purchasing. If you can't find a dealer, post on the owners' thread asking if someone near you could demo theirs for you. Most people here are great about things like that.


There are a lot of opinions around here. They are all based on certain objective facts, but like any opinion, they ultimately come down to a subjective preference and then the facts are rearranged in the light most favorable to that preference. There is also a lot of flat out bias disguised as fact but no one would admit to it because no one likes to see that they are biased. Then, add in the myths that can never be disproved no matter the proof. Very frustrating. We are all objective scientists here!


You have asked for opinions so I will give you mine. I have owned dlp, D-ILA and LCD projectors. I currently own an RS20. Before that, I owned an RS1 and before that I owned a Sharp 12k. I still own a Mitsu HD-1500 projector but consider that a toy. My experience with the JVCs has been very good. The JVCs offer a very three dimensional picture in most kinds of scenes. So, there is plenty of the "pop" that you are looking for. Good DLPs will have an edge where there are more equal portions of light and dark in the same image. JVCs will have an edge as dark material becomes predominant. This is an oversimplification but it is essentially true. I believe that most films benefit from lots of on/off contrast because directors like to make use of lots of light and shadow to add atmosphere. I think that the JVCs are best in these kinds of scenes. They are still not perfect.


You can see where my bias lies so I will take things a step further. People make the case that the JVCs are poor performers in various test patterns. These test patterns are designed to isolate sharpness or things relating to sharpness and there is no question that good DLPs have an edge over the JVCs. I have thought all along from my RS1 days that the JVCs were sharp. The RS20 has a better lens but it is not much sharper than my RS1 was. When I say sharp, I mean sharp. I do not mean unsharp so, yes, the JVC are sharp. If you bury your face in your screen and look at pixels you will see a dramatic difference. If you sit a normal distance from your screen and watch movies, I don't think that there is much difference. Reasonable people will disagree or feel that the amount of sharpness that the JVC's provide is not what they are looking for. Fine.


People also mention uniformity. RS1s had poor dark screen uniformity that was mostly visible on fade to blacks. The corners were brighter than the center of the screen. The newer JVC have "solved" this problem. By "solved" I mean that dark fields appear to be completely uniform, even on fade to blacks. People take measurements and claim that this is not so, that they are measuring differences. I don't see it and judging from posts from other JVC owners, they don't see it either.


DLPs went through a phase where they really fell behind the JVCs, particularly in on/off contrast. They are now more competitive because TI has developed and many projectors now implement a dynamic iris. I am sure that if I owned a Planar 8150 or others like it, it would be an improvement in some areas and a step back in others.


There is a good chance that I will own a DLP in the future but it will take real gains in on/off contrast to make me make the switch. People have speculated that TI is getting there and I hope that they are right.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HogPilot /forum/post/17030982


I've enjoyed my JVC's RS projectors as much as the next guy, however I am also capable of admitting that the HT3000E bests the RS2 in just about every measurable quality - optical quality, panel uniformity, convergence, greyscale accuracy, color accuracy - except on/off CR. Even the BenQ W10000 that I had in my theater for a time - which has anywhere between 2x-3x the ANSI CR of the RS2, depending on whose measurements you use - had a notably different picture that was in many ways better than that of the RS1 that I also owned. So, I'm soliciting advice from people who have actual experience with both machines as to whether the differences amount to a better picture or not. I'm already well aware of your obsession with On/Off CR, however that's not what I was asking about.

The HT3000E is arguably the best DLP made (sans 3 chip). But, at a big premium as well so it makes comparing a tough pill to swallow for many.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanger89 /forum/post/17030478


Why? Is it a bad price? It's performance hasn't dropped, and there doesn't appear to be a new model coming out.



It should be reasonably close to the RS20 price wise (it too is about the same price as it has been it came out).

The Planar is almost 2 years old, a generation in this business. Even though they may not plan a new model, the industry is not standing still and others are catching up and/or surpassing the Planar, so it's relative value is decreasing while it's absolute price has not fallen.


A late cycle or old product should normally drop in price, not stay constant. It's Planar decision to stick to a distribution model that makes this a low volume niche product. IMHO, it's a mistake. Thay already have Runco and Vidikron as boutique brands. They should target more distribution with Planar.


The JVC is already showing signs of price pressure as CEDIA gets closer. Prices are dropping.


All things being equal (however they never are) I would not buy the Planar and pay what I perceive as an artificial premium.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy /forum/post/17031476


The truth is that you should see for yourself any projector that you are interested in purchasing. If you can't find a dealer, post on the owners' thread asking if someone near you could demo theirs for you. Most people here are great about things like that.


There are a lot of opinions around here. They are all based on certain objective facts, but like any opinion, they ultimately come down to a subjective preference and then the facts are rearranged in the light most favorable to that preference. There is also a lot of flat out bias disguised as fact but no one would admit to it because no one likes to see that they are biased. Then, add in the myths that can never be disproved no matter the proof. Very frustrating. We are all objective scientists here!


You have asked for opinions so I will give you mine. I have owned dlp, D-ILA and LCD projectors. I currently own an RS20. Before that, I owned an RS1 and before that I owned a Sharp 12k. I still own a Mitsu HD-1500 projector but consider that a toy. My experience with the JVCs has been very good. The JVCs offer a very three dimensional picture in most kinds of scenes. So, there is plenty of the "pop" that you are looking for. Good DLPs will have an edge where there are more equal portions of light and dark in the same image. JVCs will have an edge as dark material becomes predominant. This is an oversimplification but it is essentially true. I believe that most films benefit from lots of on/off contrast because directors like to make use of lots of light and shadow to add atmosphere. I think that the JVCs are best in these kinds of scenes. They are still not perfect.


You can see where my bias lies so I will take things a step further. People make the case that the JVCs are poor performers in various test patterns. These test patterns are designed to isolate sharpness or things relating to sharpness and there is no question that good DLPs have an edge over the JVCs. I have thought all along from my RS1 days that the JVCs were sharp. The RS20 has a better lens but it is not much sharper than my RS1 was. When I say sharp, I mean sharp. I do not mean unsharp so, yes, the JVC are sharp. If you bury your face in your screen and look at pixels you will see a dramatic difference. If you sit a normal distance from your screen and watch movies, I don't think that there is much difference. Reasonable people will disagree or feel that the amount of sharpness that the JVC's provide is not what they are looking for. Fine.


People also mention uniformity. RS1s had poor dark screen uniformity that was mostly visible on fade to blacks. The corners were brighter than the center of the screen. The newer JVC have "solved" this problem. By "solved" I mean that dark fields appear to be completely uniform, even on fade to blacks. People take measurements and claim that this is not so, that they are measuring differences. I don't see it and judging from posts from other JVC owners, they don't see it either.


DLPs went through a phase where they really fell behind the JVCs, particularly in on/off contrast. They are now more competitive because TI has developed and many projectors now implement a dynamic iris. I am sure that if I owned a Planar 8150 or others like it, it would be an improvement in some areas and a step back in others.


There is a good chance that I will own a DLP in the future but it will take real gains in on/off contrast to make me make the switch. People have speculated that TI is getting there and I hope that they are right.

Thanks Lawguy, that's a very infromative post. And yes I did ask for opinions



I know its based on past memory, but can you add any insight to your RS20 compared to the Sharp 12K you had. It was a sharp picture, but from my memory, more had more video noise than a Sony LCOS projector I saw. I'm familiar with the picture on that one.


Sounds like peopel are generally happy with their RS's? It's too bad there are so few sub $5K DLPs out there, other than say the Optoma which has it's own issues.
 
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