AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 24 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
148 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Here's the story. Planning to build a house and have the opportunity to put speakers where I want them. The idea is to put the Pioneer 111 50 inch TV above the gas fireplace and put in walls beside each side of the TV. In the rear of the room, in ceilings because I don't think I have enough wall on one side to put in walls up high. For the sub, maybe the Polk 10 inch in wall or the NHT 12 inch in wall.


In the study, a pair of in wall speakers; in the dining room, master bedroom and master bathroom using in ceiling speakers.


Here are my questions. Anybody here used an in wall sub like the Polk or the NHT? If yes, recommended or not?


What size speakers are the best for in ceilings? They seem to range from 5 inches to 8 inches. I assume 8 inchers would sound the best but are they too big?


Since there are so many brands selling in walls right now, what manufacturers provide the most bang for the buck? Boston Accoustics? Niles? Polk?


Thanks for anybody who can give their opinion on this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,653 Posts
Best bang for the buck is the most over used term in the audio hobby. In wall and in ceiling speakers are a compromise from the start because stud cavities make EXTREMELY poor speaker enclosures. IMHO, for the in-wall speakers at least, you really need inwalls in their own braced MDF enclosures (not those elcheapo plastic boxes some have) and that means spending some serious $$$. Brands like TRIAD, higher end Speakercraft and I do believe RBH and Sonance still make an MDF enclosed IW speaker. Shoot, even in ceiling speakers really should have an enclosure if for nothing else, keeping dust, dirt, insulation etc, from building up on the back of your speaker.


Check out some of the custom HT installation companies near you and see if they have IW/IC speakers set up to audition. You could even call some higher end custom home builders who routinely do HT's in their custom homes. A lot of times they sub the HT's out to independent contractors who also may have some samples and would allow you to audition.


Because of the compromising nature of IW/IC speakers, I feel it's even MORE important to audition as many as you possibly can. Hopefully, you will find some that fit your budget and give you the kind of sound that you will enjoy. Bottom line? Trust your own ears, you'll be glad you did.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
20 Posts
I've put in some Paradigm SA 15r's in my place as rear surrounds and surrounds with no back boxes etc. They sounds fanastic, a lot better than I would have thought.


I am thinking of putting dynaboxes behind them just to keep out the dust .
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,631 Posts
+1...A speaker with a good MDF enclosure helps hedge your bets a little. A few companies do a decent job without them but it's always a good idea if you can. Triad is spendy but they make a nice product. RBH does a good job with a few lines and they have a lot to choose from for whole house stuff. I've been told that the LC265i from Polk sounds pretty nice. IMO Sonance has of late chosen form over function and there hit and miss. On a budget if you can call it that, the Tru-audio HT series is pretty nice and you can get MDF enclosures for them also.

Other than maybe your Master bedroom you can make up a little of your budget on the whole house speakers. It's rarely any critical listening and for the most part back ground music.

IW subs is a tough one ...Velodyne, Earthquake, Def Tech, probably a few other good ones. A good enclosure is critical though especially if the wall is being shared with another room. Also be aware that a lot of center channels won't fit in 16" centers and may need to be framed in. Good luck.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,244 Posts
Sn8kbit, you've been given great advice by Quadriverfalls here on AVS.


You are located in Tulsa with no less than 5-6 companies that can give you advice on IW/IC products. Why not set up a consultation during the construction process with an experienced custom installer? If you need some help, I would be happy to assist you with advice and make some product suggestions.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
14,049 Posts
Quad and ttowntony have given you some excellent advice. Here is an article that reinforces the advice to use enclosed in-walls:
http://www.cepro.com/article/how_to_...peaker_systems


You can use cheap in-wall/in-ceiling speakers, but don't expect great sound quality.


Craig
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
626 Posts
The NHT 12" inwall subwoofer (iWS) is not just a driver and a baffle. It is the driver along with an MDF/aluminum laminate enclosure that fits in a standard 2"x4" wall. It is not a typical inwall speaker (drivers mounted in a plastic baffle) per se.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,505 Posts
Back to the thread - I just ordered some Speakercraft. Well priced. I don't have them connected so I can't say how they sound. They do have many different options though. Triad has some very nice things, but you don't mention your budget so hard to say
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
I just did what you just did. I just built a house, wired a number of rooms, and installed a bunch of inwall / inceiling speakers.


1) Prepare to be SHOCKED by what the wiring alone costs, even when done while the walls are open. What you are trying to do is no bargain. It is wonderful, but pricey.


2) Do whatever you have to do to organize an electronics closet, where ALL of your receivers and cable boxes will reside. Run all wiring to that spot. This is critical.


3) A proper rack for that closet will set you back $3k. I told you this was a pricey proposition, before you purchase the first speaker.


4) Racked in a closet, your gear will have to be set up using radiowaves for the remote, not IR. This adds more cost.


5) Use inwall where possible, located as close to ear height as possible. I do have rear inceiling, and while not optimal, it isn't bad either.


6) You really need a good custom remote.


7) Flat panel TV's are damaged by the heat from fireplaces. Life is seriously reduced. Do a google search. By all means be sure you have a good sized mantil between your fireplace and your TV to divert heat out and away, and not straight up into your TV. Plasma more sensitive than LCD to this.


8) Before mounting the TV there, do a search on viewing angle for the TV, and be sure this location will be comfortable. A lot depends on how far back away from the TV wall you will be sitting. Room design is important.


9) I listened to as many inwalls as I could find. I did not go with the much praised speakers with back-boxes. I went with Martin Logan's, and am very happy with them.


10) Did I mention how expensive the total package will be? Take your budget and double it. Whatever budget you have. Wiring and labor.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,505 Posts

I just did what you just did. I just built a house, wired a number of rooms, and installed a bunch of inwall / inceiling speakers.


1) Prepare to be SHOCKED by what the wiring alone costs, even when done while the walls are open. What you are trying to do is no bargain. It is wonderful, but pricey.

Agreed


2) Do whatever you have to do to organize an electronics closet, where ALL of your receivers and cable boxes will reside. Run all wiring to that spot. This is critical.

Agreed plus I would setup boxes for wall-plates to run the cords into. Make sure that the installer properly terminates the in-wall raw cables so you don't chase adapters etc later (I am doing that now...)


3) A proper rack for that closet will set you back $3k. I told you this was a pricey proposition, before you purchase the first speaker.

hmmm yeah there are plenty of "proper" rackets for cheaper, but they are more expensive than you expect


4) Racked in a closet, your gear will have to be set up using radiowaves for the remote, not IR. This adds more cost.

Not sure I follow. You can wire for IR and use different solutions for that method. I pre-wired, but my stuff is on one floor so now I am looking at Harmony 900 that uses RF and it is $400 - not sure what you consider spendy, but nice option to think of


7) Flat panel TV's are damaged by the heat from fireplaces. Life is seriously reduced. Do a google search. By all means be sure you have a good sized mantil between your fireplace and your TV to divert heat out and away, and not straight up into your TV. Plasma more sensitive than LCD to this.

Agreed and thanks for expanding on my comment


8) Before mounting the TV there, do a search on viewing angle for the TV, and be sure this location will be comfortable. A lot depends on how far back away from the TV wall you will be sitting. Room design is important.

What I would add is what looks great on a drawing might not be in person. Above fire place looked great for me........yeah if I wanted a 40 inch. SO decided to put it on a different wall only issue is now my pre-wiring wasn't worth anything anymore. So pre-wire for any POSSIBLE points......


Extra run of Cat5e / 6 might be worth it. Pretty low "future" proof solution
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts
I just did what you just did. I just built a house, wired a number of rooms, and installed a bunch of inwall / inceiling speakers.


1) Prepare to be SHOCKED by what the wiring alone costs, even when done while the walls are open. What you are trying to do is no bargain. It is wonderful, but pricey.


Agreed


2) Do whatever you have to do to organize an electronics closet, where ALL of your receivers and cable boxes will reside. Run all wiring to that spot. This is critical.


Agreed plus I would setup boxes for wall-plates to run the cords into. Make sure that the installer properly terminates the in-wall raw cables so you don't chase adapters etc later (I am doing that now...)

Agreed


What I neglected to add, is the location of the electronics closet does come into play. I'm told HMDI cable can't be run for longer than something like 25 feet. So with a goal of keeping all boxes in the closet, the closet has to be located reasonably close to TV's that will be run on high def. Not a big deal for TV's in places like a kitchen where you just are listening to the news, and don't need high def to do that.



3) A proper rack for that closet will set you back $3k. I told you this was a pricey proposition, before you purchase the first speaker.


hmmm yeah there are plenty of "proper" rackets for cheaper, but they are more expensive than you expect


4) Racked in a closet, your gear will have to be set up using radiowaves for the remote, not IR. This adds more cost.


Not sure I follow. You can wire for IR and use different solutions for that method. I pre-wired, but my stuff is on one floor so now I am looking at Harmony 900 that uses RF and it is $400 - not sure what you consider spendy, but nice option to think of.

Simply saying that if your amps etc. are located in an electronics closet, the good news is everything is out of sight, but the bad news is standard remotes that work from IR that come with the TV and amps will not work. Your Harmony is cheaper than my RTI T2-C up front, and mine can only be professionally programmed. I like the remote, but it is only as good as the programmer, and the programming costs.


7) Flat panel TV's are damaged by the heat from fireplaces. Life is seriously reduced. Do a google search. By all means be sure you have a good sized mantil between your fireplace and your TV to divert heat out and away, and not straight up into your TV. Plasma more sensitive than LCD to this.


Agreed and thanks for expanding on my comment


8) Before mounting the TV there, do a search on viewing angle for the TV, and be sure this location will be comfortable. A lot depends on how far back away from the TV wall you will be sitting. Room design is important.


What I would add is what looks great on a drawing might not be in person. Above fire place looked great for me........yeah if I wanted a 40 inch. SO decided to put it on a different wall only issue is now my pre-wiring wasn't worth anything anymore. So pre-wire for any POSSIBLE points......

For a LOT of reasons that have nothing to do with AV, before I broke ground I invested a whopping $75 for a simple PC archetect program. Draw in your prints, and then walk through your house in 3D. Place your furniture. You can get a sense of what works, and spot issues quickly you might not envision in a flat blueprint. WHen it comes to the TV, you need to keep the fireplace mantil DOWN, so the TV height is not unreasonably high. Making that whole thing work is a design process that includes the TV, but also brings the whole look of the fireplace wall into play from a design standpoint.



Extra run of Cat5e / 6 might be worth it. Pretty low "future" proof solution

Agreed. I ran a bunch. Every foot adds cost to the wiring, and labor to run the wiring.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
148 Posts
Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Great stuff here. Okay...I have a 50 inch Pioneer Plasma which is 48 inches in width. What do you believe is a good mantle heigth so the fireplace still looks normal and the TV isn't too high? I was thinking around 44 inches to 54 inches may be a good mantle heigth.


I have a closet right behind one of the built in's which is beside the fireplace in the living room for all of the electronics. I had the plan drawn where the built in doesn't have a back so I can get to the electronics easily.


If the electronics are in the lower part of the built in which I should be able to fit 6 items in, won't the remote signal be able to reach there?


For in-ceiling speakers, what size is the best? 8 inch or less?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
95 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sn8kBit /forum/post/16991775


Great stuff here. Okay...I have a 50 inch Pioneer Plasma which is 48 inches in width. What do you believe is a good mantle heigth so the fireplace still looks normal and the TV isn't too high? I was thinking around 44 inches to 54 inches may be a good mantle heigth.


I have a closet right behind one of the built in's which is beside the fireplace in the living room for all of the electronics. I had the plan drawn where the built in doesn't have a back so I can get to the electronics easily.


If the electronics are in the lower part of the built in which I should be able to fit 6 items in, won't the remote signal be able to reach there?


For in-ceiling speakers, what size is the best? 8 inch or less?



Do a google search on viewing ANGLE. Height alone is a meaningless number without knowing how far away you will be sitting. I will tell you that as a rule, a mantil is generally more than 44 inches high. Get it too low and the fireplace will look dumb. Place a mantil in a normal height, put a big TV over it, and you can easily get to 6-7 feet as the center of the TV. All of which leads to the fact you will need a seating area to be a good 12-15 feet away from the TV wall. Unless you can figure out a good looking way to keep that mantil down without killing the look of the room.


An IR remote needs line of sight. A RF remote does not. If you are planning doors on the built-in, you will need RF.


A closet / rack next to the TV is terrific.


Which size in-ceiling? The challenge with them is getting the lower notes. Bottom of midrange, and base. To get there, you do need size. But I would not just assume every 8 inch will get you there, but its a good bet no 6 inch will. Do the research and read the specs.


What is a MUST when you are using them as rears, to get aimable speakers.


For what its worth, I went with Martin Logans. Voyage L&R, Passage center (both of which have aimable tweeters), and a pair of Helos 100's in the ceiling for rears. I did that after tracking down and listening to as many options as I could find. Aimable speakers become a must the minute you are driven to placing them in a spot that isn't optimum, and especially if you are mounting inwalls in a horizontal configuration.


Don't ignore the room. Nothing will sound good if your placement is poor, or your accoustics are poor.


Invest in a good, modern, powerful receiver.


My receiver has Audessey to optimize settings. Running that optimization made a massive difference for me. Plus, the more fabric I add to the room as I decorate it, the better and better the system sounds.


Be sure you use surge protection on the system.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,244 Posts

Quote:
An IR remote needs line of sight. A RF remote does not. If you are planning doors on the built-in, you will need RF.

Don't rely on RF alone, you want a remote compatible with both IR/RF. This will allow you to stick an eye on the TV. Will only require a single run of Cat5 between the TV and equipment closet. Something like the Harmony ONE or 900 remote will work just fine.


Yes, you want in-ceiling speakers that you can aim towards the listening position. You would even do this for L/C/R as well, however, it appears you are going in-wall which is not an issue.


Mantle height and where to place the TV? There is NO standard height. However, most are between 55" and 65". What's the distance from the seating position? How tall is the TV wall above the mantle going to be? Aesthetics are just as important as viewing angles etc.


There is very little need to go with anything larger than a 6.5" driver in-ceiling speaker for the rears. They will also be less obtrusive looking in the ceiling. Having said that, would you get better performance from a larger driver? Possibly so, but we're talking about sound effects not a full-range speaker. Yes, the larger drivers would be of benefit when used as an L/C/R speaker, though. If you use enclosures like Dynabox for your rears it will go along way in making your speakers sound better. Go with an enclosed back speaker for your in-walls too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,631 Posts
Easy access to the back of your equipment will be a HUGE benefit. Mounting your display over a fireplace is always a little trade off of form over function. Typically it puts the display a little higher than optimum. It's not to big a deal if your seating distance is far enough back. Any issues with viewing angles can normally be overcome with a tilt mount. If you have a good idea of what your seating distance is going to be the best thing to do is grab your tape measure and head to a B&M, you can get a good idea of what display height is comfortable for you at your seating distance.

Like the previous poster stated a good RF remote that has the ability to do custom macros makes life a lot easier, although if you need to a save a buck or two IR extenders work fine. The cost for pulling wire can be spendy but it's pennies compared to what it will cost if it has to be pulled as a retrofit. Cat5 is cheap...so if you have any doubts pull at least two or three to a location you think you may use later and probably and extra one or two on the locations your are certain about. These days there are baluns and modules than convert Cat5 to just about anything. Good luck.
 
1 - 20 of 24 Posts
This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.
Top