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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I just finished evaluating a KDP-65XBR2 at the local B&M. While lighting conditions were a bit harsh, I tried to set up as good a compromise as possible.


My main objectives were to determine if the XBR2 suffers from the same "banding" and other technical flaws as the XBR10W and HS10 series sets from last year. As far as I can tell, they do not!


However, using my own player (JVC 65 progressive) and component cables (which work perfectly fine on my XBR10W...) I found significant "ringing," that is, dim false edges repeating to the right side of vertical transitions. Thinking my cable might have been damaged, I asked for another... no difference. We switched out to a Denon 2800 player... no difference.


The problem was evident on both video 5 and video 6 inputs.


Is the ringing isolated to this unit, or is any other 65XBR2 owner seeing it?
 

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Make sure you do all evaluations in the PRO mode as this is the only one w/o VSM.


I have demo's a 57XBR-2 in 2 locations along with 51HW40's + 57HW40's and see no signs of ringing. I can induce ringing in the Vivid mode with the sharpness cranked (as with any RPTV) but in general the picture is excellent.


I find no picture quality differences between the XBR + HW series.


We own a new 57HW40 and find it to be quite nice. I like the menu system, remote and cabinet better also on the HW's ( simpler, cleaner looking).
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I know about the Pro mode thing and SVM.


Sharpness was optimized using AVIA multiburst and sweep patterns. Set to about 40% of scale.


Ringing was very evident. I hope this is just an issue with this one unit.


Thanks for the input!
 

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Magnolia HiFi just picked up my set because I am seeing this problem on my new 34xbr2. The tech adjusted some stuff last week but I had not yet honed in on the exact problem at that time and he did not seem to detect it when he adjusted it.


Since then I have found the coditions that bring out the problem which shows in different degrees in different conditions. I was not sure what to call it. Magnolia has been very good so far, but I will post what the tech decides to do about it when they get it. What I see is this:

Light color usually skin tone to perhaps light blue agains a dark background that has blue like dark blue to dark brown. I see a light shadow mirroring the shape up to about a 1/4 to a full inch from the object (usually a persons face). The picture seems quite good in all other respects and the convergence grid looks basically perfect. Is this ringing? Anyone know any technical reasons for this? The black level was adjusted already by the tech and I the thing shows up even with all VM off and a picture tuned to video essentials recommendations.
 

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David,

I'm convinced that a bit of ringing will be evident on most RP HDTVs, some worse than others.


There is ringing in source, in the DVD player, in the cables, and internal to the sets. The Pioneers seem to be the worst offender, but all have it.
 

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David: what you discribed is not ringing whereas I feel you are getting some sort of banding. Ringing on the other hand is a white ghost line attached to any vertical edge.
 

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David, you are seeing ringing on the 34XBR2??? That is a direct view set, not an RPTV. I'm now very concerned. You are the first person to report this on the 34XBR2. Mike and others are seeing it on the RPTV versions (65 & 57 XBR2).


My 34XBR2 has finally arrived from the factory. The "white glove" people deliver it on Tuesday. I know about the video 5 input problem, but now you have me worried about the ringing problem. My red alert lights are flashing in my mind :eek:


Do you know the build date or serial number of your set?
 

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Jeff, I am not sure what the term is for what is wrong with my 34xbr2 that I described above. What is the "video five problem"?


It is sounding like my problem it is not "ringing" from what others are saying so do not panic. I think it is set #2875.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I've looked at a third unit, a 57XBR2, build date October 2001. Same amount of ringing, quite severe.


Ive attached some renderings depicting the ringing evident on the xxXBR2. Below it is a comparison to the amount of ringing on my 65XBR10W. This view is a close-up of the AVIA sharpness pattern, the cross-hairs at the center of the large circle.


Both sets were calibrated with AVIA. In fact, even with sharpness set to minimum on the XBR2, the ringing does not decrease (it just gets softer along with the rest of the image.)


The illustrations are based on a sharpness setting of about 30% scale.


NOTE: these are renderings, based on direct observation. I tried to shoot some photos, but they arent coming out very well.


All I can recommend is, put the patterns up and judge for yourself. If it shows up in a test pattern it WILL be there in real life viewing too.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
Here's a mediocre photo of a 57XBR2, taken Saturday 11/24/01. It is the center of the AVIA sharpness pattern. Build date of the unit is October 2001.


The severity seems worse to me as I actually look at the TV (I think our eyes are more revealing that a digital camera!), but this photo may give you an idea of the issue.


As previously indicated, my current XBR10W doesn't exhibit the strong ghost lines to the right of the vertical black lines.


Real-life viewing implications: Scenes with a lot of high-contrast vertical detail (telephone poles, fences, vertical blinds, etc... let your imagination run wild!) will loose detail in adjacent areas veiled by this ringing. I would predict that live and video-based material will suffer more as the contrast tends to be higher than film-based programming. I can't imaging how harsh live sports would look with this ringing on top of the already-significant edge enhancement added by the broadcasters.
 

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Mike


I came across this article in a progressive DVD player shootout -

There is ringing on the Avia sharpness pattern. This type of ringing would be more correctly called band elimination ripple. It takes the form of a ghost that exists on both sides of the vertical lines in Avia. These ripples are symmetrical. They exist around the thinnest vertical transitions on the Avia sharpness pattern. There is much less ripple on some DVD players than others. This should not show up in actual movies because the high frequency information is often filtered. You will see it (ripple) on DVD menus, onscreen menus, and the Avia sharpness pattern.


This may be why you may not notice it on your xbr and you do notice it on the xbr2's. I beleive the problem you are seeing is the fault of the DVD player's, and not the TV's..


Hope this helps!!!!!!!!:)
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Actually, this ringing can be induced with any content with dark-to-lighter transitions, not just the sharpness pattern. Check out the black bars with log steps pattern. For crying out loud, the right edge of the 4:3 "normal" mode box rings like this without a signal present!!


At any rate, Sony has acknowledeged that there is a problem, and has issued a service bulletin to address it on the xxXBR2 units affected.


If you own one and see objectionable ringing, call Sony At Your Service or your dealer and let them know. For reference, the bulletin is TZP-0553.
 

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Mike,

I been following all the posts on the xbr2's, both here and at the spot. On 10-01-01 I ordered the 57xbr2 from our only Flagstaff, AZ. xbr dealer. It was shipped from N.J. the week of 10-31-01 and del. on 11-05. Its a Sept. build with 00001968 ser. #.

I have noticed the ringing with the 4x3 "normal" mode without a signal. I don't have avia, but VE also shows this ringing issue.

I don't typically see it in dvd's or HDTV unless I look for it and may not of noticed it if you didn't bring it up to our attention.


I do have other issues with the 57xbr2, that I hope you and others (HdTVNUT & Gene) may be able to help with. A year ago I bought the 32xbr400 and have a dish 6000 system with hbohd, shohd, cbshd, PPV&demo channels. On the 32xbr400 most of the HD channels looked very good and it was hard to tell the difference between a good and bad feed. Yes Bruce Springsteen's concert and the cbshd football games looked the best, but the Showtime upconversions also looked pretty good. Most 16X9 enhanced DVD's also look good on the xbr400, but you could tell the better ones.


The question (problem) I have is now on the 57xbr2 I can notice a much bigger difference between the HD channels and the quality of the dvd transfers. What I am seeing is when a HD show or movie is showing a shot where the subject is in focus but the background is out of focus (as the director intended), the subject is in very good focus (3d effect at times) but the background seems PIXILATED, POSTERIZED, SPECKLES, BUT NOT WHAT I WOULD CALL ARTIFACTS. On a full screen in focus shot the xbr2 can look very good. I notice this on some of the shots in the dish demo channel, but the hockey, baseball and shuttle shots in full screen focus look great. CBS shows like the district, CSI and SEC HD football look good and the backgrounds don't show this posterized effect as much. ordered the hdppv movie " 15 minutes" (also have the dvd) just to see the quality and It look very good. (almost like to much edge enhancement going on). Other low res HD movies and shows like Becker, every one loves Raymond and dvd's seem to show this out of focus background issue more. at times the background seems to flicker with speckles.

I went into our only local sear's and they have about 10 HDTV's hooked up to one 6000 using the AA comp. splitters. (about 4 boxes in series) The ones close to the feed look the best. The 57hw40 was near the end and it didn't look to good. the 55809?

looked better, but I did notice the same pixilated effect with out of focus backgrounds. I am going back to the hi-end store where I bought the xbr2 and take a closer look at the mit's line. (they can order any xbr but only stock the direct view Sony's) They said maybe a floor xbr2 later this year.


What do you guys think? Do I just need to get use to the size(I sit about 9-10 ft. away) and stop looking at the bad pixels and watch the movie as the director intended.

Mike, what would be a good VE test pattern to check the ringing issue? Does Sony have a fix yet? If I call Sony, Are They just going to call sears to send a guy out to look or someone from Sony direct?

Sorry about the long post.

Robert

p.s Mike if your in the Flagstaff area stop by for a look at my xbr2.

EXTRA:

Last night my computer would not come on, After taking eveything out I finally got it to kick on(but now it only comes on if luckey). I suspect the power supply so I called Enlight (7257 w/340 watt) and they said to try different outlets in the house and different rooms. Maybe I need a Monster HT5000 for the xbr2 and computer. My house was built in 1978.
 

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RCIEGR- Make sure your focus is set properly. Usually a poor focus is the reason for blur background. The pix might be a problem with compression issue of the Dish.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
"Do I just need to get use to the size(I sit about 9-10 ft. away) and stop looking at the bad pixels and watch the movie as the director intended.


Mike, what would be a good VE test pattern to check the ringing issue? Does Sony have a fix yet? If I call Sony, Are They just going to call sears to send a guy out to look or someone from Sony direct?

Sorry about the long post.


p.s Mike if your in the Flagstaff area stop by for a look at my xbr2."


Robert ,


If some programming looks great and Dish or other stuff looks nasty sometimes, I'd guess, along with Mahmood, that's it's a compression issue.


On VE, try their sharpness pattern, or a window like med grey or log steps on a black background. On sharpness, look to the right of the black lines. On a window pattern, look at the *left* edge of the window (the right edge of the black edge would ring into the window...) If your 4:3 "normal" mode box is ringing anyway, you've got the bug.


If you didn't buy your set from Sears (who takes over all warranty service on sets THEY sell as a trade for better wholesale prices) you are entitled to genuine Sony At Your Service service! They should (they're supposed to...) be at your door within two days of your call.


The service bulletin number they told me was TZP-0553. Explain what you're seeing and give the number as reference.

I have yet to see what it does or whether it actually works, though. I sure hope it does!!!


PS: I'm in raw, wintry New Hampshire, so I don't think I'll be over this afternoon... ;) Thanks for the invite, tho...!
 

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Mike,


Has sony given any indication as to which batches are affected by this problem? A range of serial numbers or a production date? I'm in the market and would like to buy something that I don't have to repair immediately.


Thanks

--Mike
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
******************

UPDATE UPDATE UPDATE

******************


OK, remember how I posted that there was a service bulletin to address the "ringing" issue?

It seems that the customer service rep took all of my careful, in-depth description and translated it into "fuzzy picture." I swear, describing a problem to some of these folks is like trying to describe Shakespeare to earthworms.


Worse, somewhere along the line my description "mutated" into something resembling the AUDIBLE equivalent of "ringing." Bulletin # TZP-0553 addresses "a buzz or rattling upon startup." This is the only service bulletin at this time for the KDP-xxXBR2.


In short, the *video* ringing issue is NOT ADDRESSED yet. Guess who is verrrry frustrated, annoyed, and dismayed with Sony's highly-compartmentalized "service" structure. That would be me.


I have made yet another follow-up and got through to a product specialist. I hope this helps to get some action.


Back to waiting...
 
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