AVS Forum banner
Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 22 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,050 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
If anyone is using the Sharp 10K with the High Power screen I am curious to hear what you think about the results and how you like it.


Likewise if you've had a chance to compare the Sharp 10K on a Firehawk vs. 1.3-2.x gain white screen I am curious to hear about the differences between the FH and white. Yes I've been following the white/gray/silver screen thread, but this question is more specific about results particularly with the Sharp 10K.


Of course if you have experience comparing one of the Sharp's competitive models like the S2 or TV3 etc that would be great to hear too.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,188 Posts
I have a 10k with a 96" wide Firehawk and a 92" wide Hi-Power I can pull down in front. I've really gone back and forth with this. After getting the Firehawk I felt that the images looked much more real on there with more depth. The video noise is much less noticable to me on the Firehawk. I also felt that the images were bright enough in high lamp mode with the iris open when I first got it. However, I noticed after using the 10k in another room that when I went back to the Firehawk it looked too dim to me. Also, after using my SX21 the 10k+Firehawk started to look dim. I think I may just need to readjust.


The person I bought the Firehawk and 10k from felt that the combination wasn't bright enough. I think it is all a matter of personal taste and it is going to be hard for anyone of us to tell you which one you will prefer.


I also have a 116" wide High Power in my living room and for that screen size I wouldn't take the Firehawk with the 10k. The 10k does seem bright enough with that screen and size to me.


Overall, when I originally moved from Matte White and HCMW (gray 1.1) screens to the High Power in my theater room (about 8' wide screens) I really liked the extra brightness. However, at this point I've become more in tune with video noise issues, so with everything but the very cleanest sources I think I probably prefer the Firehawk in there.


BTW: The bulb has gone from about 250 hours when I got it to about 400 hours, so I wouldn't have expected it to dim a lot.


Not sure if that helped much.


--Darin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
502 Posts
Darin,


I'm not quite sure I understand what you're saying.


Are you using the 10K in its High Contrast mode, i.e Economy mode OFF and the Iris closed (the plastic button under the lens is NOT pushed inside) or are you doing something else?


The above, after calibrating to D65 should have 400-450Ansi tops (500Ansi according to Sharp's spec)


Do you find the FH to be bright enough when the Sharp's on its H.Contrast mode?


I have the 10K with a 52"x96" FH and find the image to be definitely on the dim side when one is using the Sharp's highest contrast mode.

Having said that the above was NOT evident until I did a side by side test of the image with a Da-Lite 2.2 Gain screen (Insta Theater) which I rented.


I looked at both screens for two nights for a total of 8 hours or so.


Not once did I prefer my Fire-Hawk screen.

This was like comparing a very dim rear projection T.V to a very good Plasma screen.


What was even more surprising was the fact that the 2.2 Gain was handling the Dark/Low contrast scenes WAY better.

I did not see any evidence of noise at all. The DVD picture using the Bravo (DVI, 720P) or the image from my JVC 30K was crystal clear.


Due to the fact that I'm upgrading the 10K to the 12K which will have just 300Ansi in its H.Contrast mode (5000:1) I sold the FH and ordered a High Power screen.



Best,

Ran
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,557 Posts
Darin,


Your comments are helpful and are kind of what I'd anticipate my reactions would be with different screens. Each screen seems to have its strengths and weaknesses and being inherently restless I could see myself wondering, "Hmm, I wonder how this would look with the high-power" when using a gray screen and vice versa.


Using a gray screen now with my BenQ allows me to turn up brightness to get beyond some black crushing and therefore allow better shadow definition. I am also probably hiding some video noise on less than optimal DVDs, etc. Yet, while the picture isn't particularly dim-appearing to me, I still wonder how a higher gain screen would look. And so it goes....


Dan
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,588 Posts
I think DarinP has made the comparison that you are asking about. You might email him.


I have compared the S2, TV3 and SP7200 on firehawk vs Studiotek 1.3 white screens. I have only seen the 10000 on the Studiotek 1.3.


For the SP7200 I prefered the Firehawk hands down.


For the TV3 and S2 I prefered the Firehawk, but it was not as big of a difference. The Firehawk makes the blacks even darker without affecting the bright colors very much if at all. Even with complete light control in your HT, the firehawk dampens cross light reflections from the surfaces in your HT and improves the apparent CR.


A higher gain screen makes every part of the picture brighter (i.e. lighter) including the blacks. I would not go in this direction, unless the picture was too dim to see color and detail clearly. In which case a higher gain screen would allow one to increase image brightness without decreasing screen size. I doubt that this is what you are after though.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,050 Posts
Discussion Starter · #7 ·
The picture with my 10K is plenty bright for my tastes even in high contrast mode. However after seeing the A/B images done in the gray/white/silver thread it looks like having the FH may be taking a good amount of vibrancy out of my image.


And in that thread there was little difference between white and gray - the big difference was with the high power and silverstar compared to white or gray. So that's why I'm starting to think about possibly changing to the Silverstar.


I had to rule out the High Power since its retroreflective and based on the math and my angles I'd only get about 1.2 gain out of it.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,188 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Ran
Are you using the 10K in its High Contrast mode, i.e Economy mode OFF and the Iris closed (the plastic button under the lens is NOT pushed inside) or are you doing something else?
Yes, high contrast mode with the economy mode off (lamp on high).
Quote:


Do you find the FH to be bright enough when the Sharp's on its H.Contrast mode?
At first yes, but sometimes no, especially after comparing to something brighter.
Quote:


I did not see any evidence of noise at all. The DVD picture using the Bravo (DVI, 720P) or the image from my JVC 30K was crystal clear.?
One show where I saw a difference was on "Sharks of Palau" on DiscoveryHD. On the Firehawk the underwater scenes looked like they were underwater. On the High Power they looked like digital images of stuff filmed underwater.


I see video noise on most things when I look for it, including the highest bit-rate tape I know of. That is the "Beauty of Japan" tape that I think is 28MB/sec. I don't see it in every scene, but even in the reconstruction scene in "The Fifth Element" I see MPEG2 artifacts on some of the brighter objects.
Quote:
Due to the fact that I'm upgrading the 10K to the 12K which will have just 300Ansi in its H.Contrast mode (5000:1) I sold the FH and ordered a High Power screen.
I agree with that logic.


--Darin
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
3,477 Posts
lovingdvd,


How do you figure the angles, as I'm in the same boat. My projector is mounted at 8' and I'm sitting right below it. The screen in 13.5' away. Will I loose all the gain of the hipower or most of it? Thanks for your math:)


scott
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,188 Posts
I did some more viewing with my 10k and Firehawk and High Power tonight. I first watched the last half of the original "Ocean's Eleven" on the Firehawk in high lamp and high contrast modes. I thought it looked great and was bright enough for me (this is in a room with dark walls on 96" wide (110" diag) Firehawk). Then I started watching part of "Over America" from DiscoveryHD. I thought it looked great too and didn't see any need for more brightness. However, I decided to pull the High Power down and check it out. It was on a bright portion and I thought it looked better than on the Firehawk. This was some clean video-based material, so there wasn't much noise, though.


Now a dark scene came up and my first thought was, "I wish this PJ had more contrast range". The black levels were fairly gray to me even at the 1750:1 CR that I've measured. However, I should mention that I forgot until just now that I had played with some settings the other day and I'm not sure if I had my brightness level set perfectly. Anyway, I think I prefer the Firehawk for most things, but would love to get a true 500-800 lumen at 8000:1+ CR projector for use on the High Power or maybe even the Firehawk.


If I got the 12k I would probably try the highest contrast ratio setting and use it on the High Power most of the time. I shelf mount the 10k fairly low at the back of my room, which puts me in a pretty sweet spot with either screen.


--Darin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
502 Posts
Darin,


Doesn't the projector require different settings when going from the FH to the High Power?


Did you figure out how much of the 2.8 Gain you are actually enjoying?

The numbers I came up with (actually Lovingdvd did) were something like 1.8/1.9 with my set-up.


The 12K should have double the Contrast ratio of the 10K with 40% less light output so this will surely result in MUCH better Blacks then you saw last night.

More over the noise you were speaking off, which I presume is Dithering, should be reduced dramatically with the HD2+.


I can't wait to receive this combo.:)


Ran
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
6,092 Posts
Ran,


Contrast, brightness and colorimetery should be untouched when moving from one screen material to another. There is only one correct setting for those values.


However, depending on ambient light in the room, running a lower gamma in brighter room with the firehawk, could be a good choice.


Gamma is one of the few settings that is basically up to the user; if it looks good go with it. Most other settings have one correct value and that is it.


-Mr. Wigggles
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
811 Posts
My Z10K is ceiling mounted, projecting approx. 14.5' on to a 100" diag. Firehawk screen. My HT room is 100% light controlled, with a matte black ceiling and very dark gray walls, carpeting and furniture. Room reflections are nil. IMO, the iris' High Contrast setting is a must with the Z10K; black levels are simply unacceptable with out this setting. In my room, even with zero ambient light, the Economy Mode On setting (low lamp) produces an image that is, IMO, too dim. However, with the Economy Mode Off (high lamp) the image is consistently vibrant and realistic.


You might want to check out the current issue of SGHT. The Z10K is reviewed, and some interesting measurements were made using a FH screen. If I'm remembering correctly, the difference in light output between the high and low lamp settings was an astounding 23% (!), yet the measured difference in absolute black level between the settings was just .001 fl!


Anyway, if in my light controlled environment the low lamp setting is too dim, I'd guess that unless the throw distance is much shorter or the screen has much higher gain, you'll need to keep the Economy Mode set to off.


Re screens: I auditioned the FH, a Greyhawk, and a Da-lite (I din't know the model, but was told it had a 2+ gain). IMO, the Firehawk was the clear winner. It provided the best balance of black level, peak brightness and color saturation. Images always appeared to have significantly more depth to them, especially with HD material. IMHO, the higher gain screen tended to crush bright images, making them seem flat and ill defined, and of course, the black level was worse (higher). I can see where the higher gain screens could be of use in rooms where the ambient light levels are not controllable and black levels become more moot, but in a controlled environment, the FH really works well with the Z10K.


MiD
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,050 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Darin - so are you saying that if I am very content with my 10K and Firehawk in terms of both brightness and PQ (which I am) , then I should just keep it. Or do you think I would be even happier with the Silverstar (can't go with the HP due to my angle/ceiling mount).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
502 Posts
MiD Hi,


Let me please ask you a few questions:


1. Is your Sharp calibrated to a D65 point?

If it's not then from my experience (and others) this will result in a 15% or so light loss compared to a 10K with just Avia settings.

2. What's your Gamma value?

3. Did you test the screens you mentioned using samples which were send to you or were they actual full size screens?



I find my 10K calibrated to D65 with the Iris in its H.Contrast mode and Economy mode OFF (High lamp) to be on the dim side with a FH 52"x94" screen.


It's not a bad combination, if it were I wouldn't have lived with it for a full year, BUT after comparing it to a FULL sized 2.2 Gain screen the FH was pretty dull ON EVERY scene I looked at.


There is no question in my mind that with the 12K's highest contrast mode (5000:1) which is rated (according to Sharp) at only 300 Ansi, the FH will NOT do.


Ran
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
13,050 Posts
Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Ran


There is no question in my mind that with the 12K's highest contrast mode (5000:1) which is rated (according to Sharp) at only 300 Ansi, the FH will NOT do.


Ran
Agreed 100%
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
23,188 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Ran
Doesn't the projector require different settings when going from the FH to the High Power?
I've always wondered why most people say that the calibration needs to change for the screen, unless the screen is actually changing the color balance. As Mr. Wigggles points out, the ideal gamma might be different, though. That is also true for a room with black walls vs white walls. I haven't been changing mine when I change screens, other than changing the iris position or lamp mode.
Quote:
Did you figure out how much of the 2.8 Gain you are actually enjoying?

The numbers I came up with (actually Lovingdvd did) were something like 1.8/1.9 with my set-up.
I haven't. My projector is about 17' back and probably only 2 or 3 feet above my head, so I think I'm getting most of it.
Quote:


More over the noise you were speaking off, which I presume is Dithering, should be reduced dramatically with the HD2+.
Some of it is probably dithering and some of it is MPEG2 compression artifacts. Since I mostly see it in the brighter scenes (looking at a solid wall or sky in the images) I don't expect the HD2+ to improve it. It is the dark dithering where I believe the new colorwheel helps.
Quote:
Darin - so are you saying that if I am very content with my 10K and Firehawk in terms of both brightness and PQ (which I am) , then I should just keep it. Or do you think I would be even happier with the Silverstar (can't go with the HP due to my angle/ceiling mount).
Yes. If you are happy with the brightness and PQ I would suggest staying put for now. I'm never against looking out for the next big improvement, though. It is always possible that the next projector you really want will work better with the Firehawk than with the SilverStar. Of course, I can't say that you wouldn't like the SilverStar though, since that is personal.


--Darin
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
811 Posts
Quote:
Originally posted by Ran
MiD Hi,


Let me please ask you a few questions:


1. Is your Sharp calibrated to a D65 point?

If it's not then from my experience (and others) this will result in a 15% or so light loss compared to a 10K with just Avia settings.

2. What's your Gamma value?

3. Did you test the screens you mentioned using samples which were send to you or were they actual full size screens?



I find my 10K calibrated to D65 with the Iris in its H.Contrast mode and Economy mode OFF (High lamp) to be on the dim side with a FH 52"x94" screen.


It's not a bad combination, if it were I wouldn't have lived with it for a full year, BUT after comparing it to a FULL sized 2.2 Gain screen the FH was pretty dull ON EVERY scene I looked at.


There is no question in my mind that with the 12K's highest contrast mode (5000:1) which is rated (according to Sharp) at only 300 Ansi, the FH will NOT do.


Ran
Hi Ran.


1) Set to 6500; not ISF calibrated.


2) "Standard" Gamma setting.


3) Firehawk = 100" (the screen I bought), Grayhawk = 110" & Da-Lite = 90". All were illuminated from approx. 15'.


Re the higher gain screen: IMO, there are trade-offs with a higher gain screen. The image is certainly brighter, but at the expense of a higher black level. My experience is different from yours. In my HT setup, I do not find the FH "dull" in comparison to the higher gain screen. Dimmer, but with better color saturation and a lower black level which, to my eye, lends towards a more three dimensional picture.


I can't comment on what the Z12K will or won't do... It's my experience that real world conditions have little to do with manufacturer specs. All things being equal at Sharp though, I'd guess that the HD2+'s 10-15% increase in light output (while maintaining the black level) will be significant to some folks. (It's certainly got my interest!) But as of now, I'm not compelled in any way to feel as though I need a brighter image.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
502 Posts
Hey MiD,


Thanx for replying.

My projector had the same setting as yours, i.e 6500 (in the user menu) and Gamma standard until I calibrated it using Color Facts to reach the D65 point. The calibration resulted in improved shadow detail, MUCH better colors, BUT visible light loss.


I guess that the fact that I project on a larger screen (106" diagonal), with D65 settings and doing so in a mildly controlled environment, results in the different impressions we had.


The new Sharp will have LESS light output if one wishes to use the high contrast mode.


As to Sharp's specs, what's really important are not the actual numbers, but the fact that Sharp is claiming to have reached a 100% improvement in CR over the 10K, alas with only 300Ansi.


BTW Apparently Sharp showed off the 12K at CEDIA using a 2.2 Gain screen....


Ran
 
1 - 20 of 22 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top