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I've heard on this forum that there is such a thing as 1080p. I know no one is currently broadcasting in this format but I think there's been some talk of DVD players eventually outputting this format.


So my question is will my current TV be able to display something in 1080p?
 

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No, it won't.


1080p will most likely be a mastering format. By the time it DOES find its way into consumer gear, IF it gets there, you'll be ready for a new set, anyway .


Doc
 

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Your current TV wouldn't be able to watch 1080p native, but 1080p TVs of the future should be able to take 1080i footage and deinterlace it just like HDTV monitors today take 480i footage and turn it into 480p.
 

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You can get a costly Faroudja 5000 video processor that converts 1080i HDTV into 1080p. Some high-grade monitors can display this. The video-processor and HTPC forums have more info on 1080p conversions, too. True 1080p, though, means sampling a scene all at once, in one split second, instead of in an interlaced format. The current 720p format used by ABC does this, with cameras capturing 720 active (visible) lines in 1/60 second. (1080i cameras capture images in two interlaced fields, each 1/60 sec, later blended by our eyes into 1/30-sec HDTV frames.)


But for 1080P the ATSC specifies only 30 and 24 frames per second, not 60 fps (see table 2.1 ). At 60 fps, with theoretical 1080X1920 resolution, the data rate is apparently too high for practical recording gear at the moment. And compression techniques aren't sophisticated enough to squeeze such data into standard transmission channels. -- John
 

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The format 1080p/24 is one of the 18 ATSC formats that all STB will receive. Most video cameras are 1080p/24 but the studios convert it into 1080i for transmission. The studios could just as easily transmit the 1080p/24. Then the STB would coinvert it into 1080i for sending to the TV.


Would it be better if the TV accepted and displayed the 1080p/24 natively? I don't know. I know of no TV that does this.


Rick R
 

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I read on Widescreen review were Toshiba announced a new 1080p HD widescreen RPTV. Can't find the link though.
 

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hi,

If i had the availability of a scaler that could scale a 1080i hd broadcast to 1080p and fed that signal to my runof the mill toshiba hdtv, what would i see.

my tosh advetises 1600 lines of rez. the ISF'r that did my set told me that the tosh only actually uses 1200 of those lines.


it's one thing to be able to natively or through scaling create 1080p but could some expert look at one of our projectors or hdtv's with todays technology and say "hey thats 1080p"


peter m.
 

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Could a TV receive and display 1080p/24 fps? Not without electronically bumping up the frame rate, just as theaters double 24-fps films to 48 fps, mechanically, to avoid serious flicker problems.


The higher frame rates in monitors, just as with 720p-capable sets now, requires more robust and costly circuit components for CRT-based hardware. A standard RPTV today fed a 1080i HDTV signal doubled to 1080p (not 540p) couldn't handle the signal (blank screen, or worse). A few high-end RPTVs might; a number of higher-end front projectors and direct-view CRTs can handle doubled 1080i, and I believe the 24-inch LCD Samsung SyncMaster 240T can (see samsungusa.com). That new 57-inch LCOS 1080p Toshiba, delayed apparently until January or longer, handles 1080i doubled internally to 1080p, but can't accept external 1080p signals. -- John
 

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If a TV accepted the 1080p/24 input and displayed it natively it would, of course, have to electronically double the frame rate and display each frame twice. This is just as theaters do with film to avoid apparent flicker.


However, this would then eliminate the jagged edges that are produced with interlaced displays. It would seem to me that this would then be a superior picture.


Rick R
 

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It would definitely be a superior picture, except possibly when watching footage that's been recorded natively in 1080i/60 fps like sporting events where framerate is crucial. 60fps interlaced only has a place in sporting events, or maybe news. But in dramas most people find such a high framerate distracting and all filmmakers will tell you that they think it looks fake. (Actually, it doesn't look fake, it looks too REAL - but that's still a problem).


Anyway short answer, a TV that displayed 1080p will look better than a 1080i TV in all situations except possibly sporting events.
 

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Interesting (1080 60i is too real). Those who follow the HDTV programming section may recall a few threads debating this is recent months--and in other years. IMO, 1080 60i, with its smoother motion and superb crispness, is better for dramas or anything else. Interlaced video isn't suitable for format conversions. PBS's entire 24/7 1080 60i video loop seems to work fine, although selling it overseas in other video formats might lose too much of the original fidelity during conversion. I'd defer to Snell & Wilcox and other conversion hardware experts on how much would be lost in format conversion. As the transition to HDTV tape and hard disk continues, directors and videographers, hopefully, will try to master 1080 60i for recording dramas. Also, as MPEG-2 encoding advances, hope to see less filtering of HDTV signals and greater oversampling to more closely approach true 1920X1080i, as outlined here and here and here . No, it's not a conspiracy to deny viewers top HDTV fidelity, just limitations of current technology.


If you say a 1080p TV will look better than 1080i except for sporting events, IMO it helps to be more specific. I don't always associate 1080p with 24p image capture. The upcoming Toshiba true 1920X1080-pixel 57-inch LCOS RPTV and L.G. Philips' 52-inch LCD hang-on-wall panel will be able to display 1080i 60 fields per second converted to 1080p.


But they'll have to upscale HDTV with today's either low or moderate resolutions to 'fill' those 2.07-million pixels. Hope their deinterlacers/scalers are better than those in many sets these days. And is digital conversion of 1080i to 1080p in electronic memory (deinterlacing) always really superior to merging two 1/60-sec fields into 1/30-sec HDTV frames with our eyes? I just don't see jagged edges as I've viewed 1080i HDTV on my 64-inch RPTV for 28 months from only 8 feet away.


As technology develops, true 1080p 60p--that is, capturing a scene originally in 1/60-sec progressive frames--would top progressive imaging. (JVC and others are well along in developing and testing much higher resolutions for e-cinema.)


Most HDTV, of course, is 24-fps film telecined to 1080i/60 fields per second, or 720p/60p (frames per second, in turn converted to 1080i 60 fields per second by most STBs/sets). And there's a rapid shift to cost-saving HDTV taping at 24p, which is also converted to 1080i 60 fields per second into homes. -- John
 

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If it's recorded natively in 1080p/60fps, then obviously that's the most accurate reproduction of what is seen by the naked eye of all the formats. But I don't think that ANYTHING is recorded that way, and thus a TV that takes 1080i source material and converts it to 1080p/30fps is going to have to perform a little gaussian blur and that will make the picture obviously less sharp and you might start to see some image artifacts just as you do when watching some 480i source material on a 480p display.


As for film look vs. video look, again you may prefer a super-high framerate for all your viewing, but 99% of directors (film and TV) are not going to produce their pictures that way. For one thing, making a film or a drama at 60fps progressive is going to require 2-3 times the amount of film processing and special effects work. If it takes 8 hours to render a special effects scene at 24fps, then it's going to take almost a day to render it at 60 fps flat. Not only that, but filmmakers just prefer the look of film (as do I, but that's irrelevant). The directors of the Sopranos or the West Wing are just never going to shoot in 60fps video, they'll never stand for it.


So therefore, a TV that displays 1080p/30fps or 1080p/24fps is going to look superior when viewing film-source material, while the 1080i/60fps TVs will look superior when viewing interlaced video material like sports.


A good TV will display at all different options: 1080i/60fps, 1080p/24fps, 1080p/30fps, etc., natively. Sometimes I wish my TV would display 480i material natively without deinterlacing because some shows just look terrible de-interlaced (you see ghosts of previous frames all the time).
 

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Probably someone will come out sometime with cameras with more than 1080p resolution that can make a vertically oversampled 1080p @ 30 or 60. This could be sent as a "telecined' 1080i without much additional filtering and would probably look pretty good on existing TV's but could be 2:1 inverse telecined to make a very clear 1080p @ 30 for progressive TV's & STB's that could handle it and would look even better.


But I'm not really optimistic of just sending 1080p @ 30 directly. There is probably some equipment already in the field that would fail on it.


- Tom
 

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Hi,

fresh on the heals of the HOLO3D video scaler, Immersive is coming out with a new product the Asimulator that scales 1080i to 1080p. what can the general highdef watching public watch it on?


will it make an already beautiful picture even more beautiful or will my Tosh kick it back to 1080i, or will (as someone suggested) i get a blank screen?


It certainly exciting but is it ahead of it's time?

Perhaps, also i don't quite understand it.

Has ayone else had a look at the specs and care to comment?


peter m.
 

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Discussing 1080 60p hardware above, and its availability, here's a 2000 Millimeter.com article that refers to 1/60-sec frame capture at 1080X1920 as being "the Holy Grail," and a subset of MPEG-4 (see final paragraphs). Someone from Sony apparently said 1080 60p hardware would be announced in 2001. 1080 60p requires recording at 600 Mb/sec. Wonder if anything came of this or was it just promotional? Believe ATSC HDTV, at the moment, must be MPEG2, not MPEG4.


Also mentioned earlier was format conversion (1080 60i, for example, to overseas formats). The same article also mentions Teranex's Xantus real-time parallel-processing hardware/software. It was derived from military image-recognition technology and runs at 1 trillion operations per second. Teranex processing has been discussed earlier here as a forum search reveals.


Another case of 'missing' hi-rez tech is this chip reportedly going into a JVC camera, although JVC reps at last spring's NAB show, according to this extract from a Mark's Monday Memo weren't aware of it:
Quote:
Photon Vision Systems is showing CMOS 8.3 million-pixel (3840 x 2160) "QuadHDTV" imaging sensors. These are supposed to be integrated into JVC's Ultra High Definition TV (UDTV) color camera.
No one at JVC's booth seemed to know anything about the chip application . -- John
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by petermwilson
....scales 1080i to 1080p. what can the general highdef watching public watch it on?
For now, a graphics grade projector will work fine. As time goes on, 1080p capability will be included in consumer HDTV's, but not until it's available as a viewing format.


Quote:
will it make an already beautiful picture even more beautiful or will my Tosh kick it back to 1080i, or will (as someone suggested) i get a blank screen?
You'll get a blank or a scrambled screen. Besides, it would be of no value to upconvert 1080i to 1080p and back to 1080i for display.
 

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Personally I'm a big fan of the idea of showing films as 1080p at 72Hz. You only need to broadcast 24p but the display device can show the information from each frame of film three times. You'll have much of the judder inherent to the 24 fps, but presumably less flicker than double shuttering at 48p or interlace twitter from 1080/60i.


Jim
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Rick_R
The format 1080p/24 is one of the 18 ATSC formats that all STB will receive. Most video cameras are 1080p/24 but the studios convert it into 1080i for transmission. The studios could just as easily transmit the 1080p/24. Then the STB would coinvert it into 1080i for sending to the TV.


Would it be better if the TV accepted and displayed the 1080p/24 natively? I don't know. I know of no TV that does this.
Seems to me that this part of the spec makes sense only for film-originated material, which is 24-fps anyway. You would not want the display to run at 24 fps, but some people might find a 48-fps rendering acceptable; the usual way of doing it would be to convert to 60 fps, as is done now, and the best way would be to display at 72 fps, with each frame getting hit three times.
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by Daryl L
I read on Widescreen review were Toshiba announced a new 1080p HD widescreen RPTV. Can't find the link though.
It won't accept a 1080p input, however.
 
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