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I apologize in advance for starting a thread about this since this question has probably been answered already somewhere; I did some searching for a while and just gave up.


Anyway... My BD player and television both support 1080/24p. Are all Blu-ray discs in 24p format by default, or will I only see an improvement in certain Blu-ray movies?


I was watching Planet Earth today in both 1080/24p and 1080/60p modes, and I really didn't notice much of a difference.
 

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The fact that your TV can accept 24p input does not necessarily mean it displays it correctly. Many do not. The difference can be pretty subtle if you don't know what to look for, though.


Not all discs are 24fps, depends on the content. Almost all films and most TV shows on blu are 24p however.
 

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This is as good a place as any to ask about something I've been wondering:


Since most blu-rays are 23.976 and not exactly 24 (though I've heard of one or two titles that are, Chicago being the only one I remember), when you play those 23.976 titles on a player set to 24p output on a tv that accepts/displays 24p ..... is the signal getting bumped up / processed to 24p or is it still being shown at 23.976?
 

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If a particular Blu-ray is in 1080p, then it has to be 24/23.976fps since Blu-ray doesn't support 1080p at any other refresh rates (25, 30, 50, 60, etc.).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by 42041 /forum/post/19578450


I think the 24p mode on TVs is shorthand for 23.976p, since actual 24.000 fps streams cause problems.

It would cause problems on older sets like, for example, my friend's 60" hdtv from 2004 that can't go higher than 1080i. Or, for that matter, the 4:3 crt from 2000 that I watch my blu-ray's on over component in 480i. It makes sense for blu-ray's to allow easy conversion to ntsc, I was just curious whether the signal gets processed/bumped to exactly 24.000 when played on a completely 24p setup.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gekkou /forum/post/19578572


If a particular Blu-ray is in 1080p, then it has to be 24/23.976fps since Blu-ray doesn't support 1080p at any other refresh rates (25, 30, 50, 60, etc.).

True, though you may see some releases that claim to be "1080p 25fps", such as the Nordic version of INSIDE. Discs like that are typically 1080i 50Hz with 2:2 pulldown, but basically the data itself is progressive - it just can't be flagged that way.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathbone
In Europe Independent or national labels often do their own transfers and masters and these in true 24,00 fps.
And some Asian ones too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang Zei
It would cause problems on older sets like, for example, my friend's 60" hdtv from 2004 that can't go higher than 1080i.
Maybe maybe not. My 2002 non-HDMI Pioneer 768p plasma (no longer in use) can handle 24.00fps discs output as 1080i60 from player without problems - not sure if it's 60.00 exactly or 59.94 fields/s.


Have you tried it on your friend's HDTV?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang Zei
Or, for that matter, the 4:3 crt from 2000 that I watch my blu-ray's on over component in 480i. It makes sense for blu-ray's to allow easy conversion to ntsc...
There's a possibility that some old TVs are more tolerant than others. Without a device to measure exact frame rate you can't be sure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fang Zei
I was just curious whether the signal gets processed/bumped to exactly 24.000 when played on a completely 24p setup.
I don't think there is any display that is only 24.00 but not 23.97fps capable even in Europe and Asia where both standards are commonly supported. My BDPs, VP and displays (all North American models) are all 23.97 and 24.00fps capable. My DVDO Edge VP shows 23.97fps source is output as 23.97fps and 24.00 as 24.00.
 

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Quote:
I don't think there is any display that is only 24.00 but not 23.97fps capable even in Europe and Asia where both standards are commonly supported.

I believe there is an older JVC projector from a few years ago that supports only 24.00. They had no 24p support at all, and people wanted it, but they didn't really understand and gave people exactly 24p, instead of 23.97. Kind of amusing, but now I think they all support both.


Always quirky engineers like this! lol
 

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Most HDTV equipment should be able to support integer framerates, since the original Japanese High Definition proposals defined, & the SMPTE & other industry groups in the US initially accepted, a framerate of exactly 30 per second. Only in the course of the FCC's disastrous flirtation with analog NTSC-compatible EDTV techniques (none of them was really HDTV, not to mention that none of them really worked) did the 1000/1001 numbers get in.


A true analog CRT display has more than enough flexibility to tolerate a change of 0.1% in its sync frequencies, but the trouble gets in when there's on-board DSP with lazy design.


Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, if a Blu-Ray is encoded at 24.00 fps, it will be output at 24.00 fps, not slowed down to 23.98.
 

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[
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rathbone /forum/post/19578525


In Europe Independent or national labels often do their own transfers and masters and these in true 24,00 fps. 23,97 fps is a compromise to enable 3:2 pulldown in former NTSC territory.

Unprofessional numpties in Europe do 24p video transfers. Those of us that actually know what we are doing use 23.976.


Client "is it okay if we have 24 instead of 23.976?"


Me: "No."


Client "Does it make any difference its such a small amount after all?"


Me : "Huge difference , stick with 23.976"


Client : "The editor says that 24p should be fine".


Me: "this would be the editor that refers to 23.976 as 24 all the time anyway, and can't get his head around the difference between a 25 and a 24fps PAL playout "


Client : "I insist you do a 24p video transfer for BD".


Me : "look why don't you try a few places in Germany , they don't know any better and will do whatever you tell them because they haven't got a clue anyway"


Amount of times I've had a top level film client ask for 24p video masters...Never , even the temp video versions from film work are requested as 23.976 QTs. They know better.


Amount of times I've had some amateurish , inexperienced jumped up numpty ask me for a 24p video transfer...lost count. Usually after I've had to explain the 25p 24p PAL playout thing to his dimwit avid editor (guess what one I want , if all I care about is a frame reference for a 24p film project...hint its NOT a 24p PAL playout) .


Usually followed with him asking why he ends up with less frames in his timeline after he requests a vector based respeed (did I mention he's a dimwit) and also why his timing test frames don't look the same as my resped frames when he is dealing with 24p PAL material pulldowned at 50Hz and I'm dealing with the actual film frames...they should make these people take some sort of driving test before they let them loose on an Avid.


The other classic is , can you retime this 30fps video material so that it fits into out 24p timeline without respeeding it or removing any frames or interpolating it and making it run at 24p but we want it to look like its the right speed , followed by can you take this 4x3 image and make it 2.35 without cropping it or pushing into it or distorting it...for free? There are many things I can do but defeating the laws of physics isn't one of them not when there is no money on the table.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D /forum/post/19596833


Unprofessional numpties in Europe do 24p video transfers. Those of us that actually know what we are doing use 23.976.

Has there been recent research into what % of BD players, & what % of recent HDTVs support and properly display 24.000 fps and what % properly do 23.976 fps?

And if so are there figures for that?


If a film was shot at 24.0 fps, isn't the audio going to be a bit worse (and not really lossless) at 23.976?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joe Bloggs /forum/post/19596868


Has there been recent research into what % of BD players, & what % of recent HDTVs support and properly display 24.000 fps and what % properly do 23.976 fps?

And if so are there figures for that? (my TV manual says the recommended frequency for connecting a PC with HDMI/DVI input and 1920x1080p is 60.000 vertical frequency, and if connected with D-Sub at 1920x1080p that 59.934 vertical frequency would be the best to use).


If a film was shot at 24.0 fps, isn't the audio going to be a bit worse (and not really lossless) at 23.976?

If you have a 24p video master of a film I can guarantee its been messed with relative to what was generated at the DI.


24p in video is a screw up , some minion has pushed the wrong button when duping a transfer. The only reason its even in the BD spec is to provide compatability with some of the 24p modes in some HD consumer cams for home movies.


Professional video masters of feature films are 23.976 , if you find one thats 24p its because an idiot occurred during the production who didn't realise the difference and didn't do anything to maintain the transfer at 23.976.


My other favourite is video levels vs PC levels.


Client : your footage is milky!


Me: You are watching it on a computer or laptop I assume?


Client: Whats that got to do with it ? My laptop was very expensive! The man in the shop said it was the best screen out there.


Also it doesn't help that a lot of professional kit still mislabels the frame rates: 23.976 being labelled 24 or 23, worst one I saw was it labelled 60i when what they meant was 59.94 but that it defaulted to "24" when dealing with progressive material , "24" actually meaning "23.976". Clear as mud. Even if you phone up the support line the berk you usually get at the other end doesn't know anything other than repeat whats in the badly written manual.


I never cease to be amazed at how messed up video is , its much more difficult to handle than film for all the wrong reasons and all the nitwits who get in the way.


As for the 24 to 23.976 thing not being truly lossless...I'd rather worry about whether the entire transfer hadn't been messed with further down the chain.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D /forum/post/19596929


Professional video masters of feature films are 23.976...

Is this mandatory?


Film in theatres is 24.00 isn't it even when the DI is 23.976?


When analogue NTSC has been phased out why can't this be phased out too - at least with newly shot films?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kilian.ca /forum/post/19601169


Is this mandatory?


Film in theatres is 24.00 isn't it even when the DI is 23.976?


When analogue NTSC has been phased out why can't this be phased out too - at least with newly shot films?

Film is 24p , DI is 24p. Video at 23.976 is a well defined robust standard , video at 24p is a kludge. Like I said the only reason its in the BD spec is to support consumer HD cams (like sony's that do some horrible 30 to 24p pulldown).


Given the choice of throwing something out into the market place that will potentially cause a problem for someone or stick with a well defined supported standard the smart move is to stick with 23.976. Exactly what difference do you think moving to 24p makes over 23.976 ?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr.D /forum/post/19601187


Exactly what difference do you think moving to 24p makes over 23.976 ?

Easier maths
(talking about moving to 24p instead of 23.976 (or is it 24/1.001 which is 23.976023976023976...), 30p instead of 29.97 and 60p instead of 59.94 etc.). Would simplify TV/video. Less altering of the video/sound. Easier timecodes? Running at exact speed it was shot. Would be easier to convert to different TV standards or build/use devices capable of handling different standards while maintaining the best quality.
 
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