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At this moment the Oculus Quest has a resolution of 1440 × 1600 using two diamond Pentile OLED displays. Not even HD, and we don't know the active pixel count on the screen itself. Having said that, I specifically said we are in the early days. But the advantages are there. Not everyone can afford the space to have a projector at home, and certainly you get a better social experience than watching by yourself at home, sure, you can invite friends, but how often do you do that, and what about friends that live far away. Have you tried BigScreen? If you don't please do. Like I said, early days. In any case, the dichotomy of VR as a social platform is that it's better done privately.

Also, there's the debate on wether a 4K projected image is that much distinguishable from a 2K one, and let's not even start on HDR, not even a million dollar Dolby setup can compete with OLED when it comes to HDR most of the times. I work as a film colorist (or video since there is barely anything shot on film nowadays, and I also have a lot of experience making DCPs for theatrical exhibition) and I graded on many projectors, 2K and 4K. I can tell the difference sometimes between 2K and 4K, especially in trees or gravel, but is it a difference that correlates with price? No.

Also, the only way to enjoy 4K today is with 4K Blu-ray, and lots of colleagues complain that the color rendition of the 4K Blu-rays is different than the 2K Blu-ray on movies they graded, which for them the HD Blu-ray matches the creative intent better. Something about the encoding.

So what I'm saying is, don't get too hung up on pixel count when it comes to projection or VR.
When I saw the thread, I wanted to post about Virtual Cinema in VR too. You beat me to it.

Like you say, its early days. Some of the naysayers are judging it on the google carboard they tried. Some are judging it on theirs or their friends Rift CV1/Vive/Rift-S/Index. Most are not educated enough on how early in the game we still are and where and when this is all going to end up. Even my HP Reverb G1 is a large step up from my CV1 and Rift S and your Pentile Quest certainly with regard to apparent Virtual Screen resolution and Screendoor effect. Its RGB Stripe 2160x2160 per eye resolution while not delivering great blacks in dark scenes is delivering close to 1080p clarity to my eyes. It makes sense too given that the eye is more sensitive to vertical as opposed to horizontal res, that over half the vertical FOV is taken up by the virtual Screen and thus if the HMD's vertical res is 2160 pixels, that means about 1080 of them are 'drawing' the virtual Screen. I am no longer taken out of the experience by a lack of res or annoying SDE. Chromatic abberation, thick cable, bulky headset are my minor annoyances now. Cable and CA sorted in the Reverb G2 out later this year.

This isn't to say I expect many HT enthusiasts to rush out and buy a Reverb G2 either. The point is, that Virtual Cinema has already passed a threshold for some of us to be able to enjoy it and in about a decade it'll have passed a threshold that all of us will. We'll have HMD's the formfactor of those in Ready Player One, so light and wireless. They'll be using 4000-8000x4000-8000pixel per eye microleds through 180º FOV varifocal Waveguide lenses. Not only will they be capable of a 4K OLED (Clarity and Black levels) Virtual Screen the size of the largest iMAX in the world but they'll have custom HRTF (Head Related Transfer Function) VR positional audio capable of completely convincing the brain that they are efefctively hearing a full Cinema array of Dolby ATMOS speakers. Better even. The only thing that would be missing is the bass kick. Start investing in Tactile Transducer manufacturers today!!

We're talking 4K OLED visuals combined with DOLBY ATMOS theater beating audio and getting to view the movie in your own personal largest iMAX in the world...and like you said doning it with friends and family spread across the country/world. The microled 80" TV's will remain for communal family viewing within the home (unless Augmented Reality glasses replace real with augmented virtual 80" TV's on the wall). The best most impressive Big Screen Movie Theater type experience will have moved from HT Projectors in the real world to Virtual iMAX's.....and you can theme them too! Anyone remember that amazing BatCave Home Theater in some billionaires house. Now we all get to watch the retro Dark KNight Trilogy in our own Virtual Version, with Tumbler Batmobile parked near the screen, Bat Suits in glass display cases on the side wall's, Virtual Bats flying around in the virtual Projector rays near the Bat Cave roof, all your friends and family around the country/world watching with you 'dressed' in their super hero virtual Avatars. Or how about Watching Star Wars in the Star Destroyer Hanger bay themed Virtual THeater etc etc.

I'll spend so much time in Virtual Cinema's......if I can tear myself away from Pay Per View Sporting or concert events in 6DOF Lightfield capture. ie. Instead of rights holders getting to sell a given court/ring/pitch/stage side seat to one celebrity or 1%'er for thousands of dollars, if they put a 360º Lightfield Video Camera rig in that seat, they can sell that seat virtually to tens of millions of people for $20. You will literally feel like you are sat courtside at the US Tennis Open Final for example. Tying that back to a point from earlier. The naysayers will bring up how terrible 3D 360º video capture looks now. Yeah, not the same thing guys, we are not talking about that, we are talking about Lightfield video capture and we are talking about 10 years from now when the resolution of both capture device and display are high enough and we have the Deep Learning Compression algortihms solving the bandwidth issue etc.

Being a naysayer for much of this tech doesn't make someone look clever, it simply shows that they don't know enough about the tech or where its going. They can say its not ready for prime-time now (which is fine because it isn't) but blanket statements saying VR/AR will always be niche or never replace X or Y just shows how little they know or how little imagination they have, it doesn't make them sound clever.

Mark my words ladies and gentlemen, in 10 years on these Home Cinema forums, we won't be arguing about which $5000-$20000 HT Projector and 5.1.4.2 audio system is best, we'll be arguing about which $500-$1000 VR/AR Goggles/Sunglasses are best.

Peronsonally I'm not a fan of the distraction of other VR users in Bigscreen and prefer to feel like Jeff Bezo's having bought out every seat in the largest iMAX in the world at Darling Harbour Sydney Australia so I can watch a movie in this screen in private. The feeling of watching a movie in a 500 seater Cinema on a 100ft(30m) wide screen makes up for the current gen VR downsides when it comes to blacks, res, SDE, FOV, formfactor, weight, cable etc. I am prepared to compromise on those things today but I understand why many/most don't. However in another 10 years, none of us will have to.

 

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Being a naysayer for much of this tech doesn't make someone look clever, it simply shows that they don't know enough about the tech or where its going. They can say its not ready for prime-time now (which is fine because it isn't) but blanket statements saying VR/AR will always be niche or never replace X or Y just shows how little they know or how little imagination they have, it doesn't make them sound clever.
I wasn't trying to be a naysayer if that's how I came across. I have owned the Oculus DK2, CV1, and now a Quest (with Link cable), so I've followed the evolution over the past 6-8 years pretty closely. There are huge benefits to VR/AR, but most of those are in the online social space and 6DOF tracking in rendered environments, not as much for movies/TV watching. Yes, it's awesome that you can have a lightweight headset and simulate a massive screen with 3D if you want to, but I can't imagine that having OLED (or any emissive display tech) panels an inch from your eyeballs is ever going to be as comfortable as watching a big OLED panel or projected image. In 10 years, maybe it could be there as you said - (likely more than 10 but we'll see), but in those 10+ years, while I'll be enjoying following the VR space, I'll also be actively enjoying my dedicated theater a lot more, without having to justify the downsides today in terms of comfort and resolution.

I agree that the benefits to VR (required space and cost savings mostly, plus 6DOF interaction and immersive content of course) will see it grow much larger than the dedicated Home Theater niche (I'm sure it already is), but most of my watching is alone, with my wife and/or kid, or with our friends and family, so having a space set up for everyone to enjoy without requiring special hardware for each person is a lot more convenient.

diegoborgh mentioned that the only real content in 4k was blu rays, but I'm also a long-time PC and console gaming fan, so the benefits for me of having a 1440p or 4k screen are significant. For large screens, OLED w/VRR is king for games, but projectors are still competent and sitting in front of a 135" screen you can really see the benefits of 4K over 1080p, even if it takes an $800-1000 GPU to render the frames fast enough. With the new consoles coming with a lot more 4k/60 +VRR enabled content, more people will get to see those benefits soon. Yes, you can use Virtual Desktop or some other solutions to play PC games in an HMD, but the limitations of today's tech and the difficulty of setup really make it hard to recommend IMO.
 

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why create this straw man? no one is saying the image quality is better than OLED or could be. It's the entire experience, which we are talking about.
Which is exactly what I said in the rest of my post if you read the whole post instead of just this partial quote.

There are some out there who have said that projection image quality is just as good as oled in a black room. It isn't, unless you spend astronomical prices and special room customization with a Christie.

Biggest difference between LCoS projection and oled is color volume and black levels.

However, projection wins in size per dollar which is probably more important.
 

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Which is exactly what I said in the rest of my post if you read the whole post instead of just this partial quote.

There are some out there who have said that projection image quality is just as good as oled in a black room. It isn't, unless you spend astronomical prices and special room customization with a Christie.

Biggest difference between LCoS projection and oled is color volume and black levels.

However, projection wins in size per dollar which is probably more important.
I think I have read every post in this thread and I do not recall a single post where anyone said front projection has better image quality than OLED. I am excluding the Christie Eclipse. Have not seen that projector yet.
 

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^Only thing I notice in on my LG 65 C9 OLED is slight flickers for want of a better word around the odd moving object. Was watching Avatar on it the other night to compare against the projector upstairs and whilst colours and blacks were noticeably better this was one thing I noticed on it that’s definitely not there on the Epson and I’m not one that’s sensitive the motion at all.

Before anyone asks YES I checked the settings and it was set to OFF for motion, in fact I tried all the different option and when turned ON all of them made this more noticeable not less.

Maybe it’s an issue of LG over other brands but at the time the C9 was one of their better models in the range.
 

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I wasn't trying to be a naysayer if that's how I came across. I have owned the Oculus DK2, CV1, and now a Quest (with Link cable), so I've followed the evolution over the past 6-8 years pretty closely. There are huge benefits to VR/AR, but most of those are in the online social space and 6DOF tracking in rendered environments, not as much for movies/TV watching. Yes, it's awesome that you can have a lightweight headset and simulate a massive screen with 3D if you want to, but I can't imagine that having OLED (or any emissive display tech) panels an inch from your eyeballs is ever going to be as comfortable as watching a big OLED panel or projected image. In 10 years, maybe it could be there as you said - (likely more than 10 but we'll see), but in those 10+ years, while I'll be enjoying following the VR space, I'll also be actively enjoying my dedicated theater a lot more, without having to justify the downsides today in terms of comfort and resolution.

I agree that the benefits to VR (required space and cost savings mostly, plus 6DOF interaction and immersive content of course) will see it grow much larger than the dedicated Home Theater niche (I'm sure it already is), but most of my watching is alone, with my wife and/or kid, or with our friends and family, so having a space set up for everyone to enjoy without requiring special hardware for each person is a lot more convenient.

diegoborgh mentioned that the only real content in 4k was blu rays, but I'm also a long-time PC and console gaming fan, so the benefits for me of having a 1440p or 4k screen are significant. For large screens, OLED w/VRR is king for games, but projectors are still competent and sitting in front of a 135" screen you can really see the benefits of 4K over 1080p, even if it takes an $800-1000 GPU to render the frames fast enough. With the new consoles coming with a lot more 4k/60 +VRR enabled content, more people will get to see those benefits soon. Yes, you can use Virtual Desktop or some other solutions to play PC games in an HMD, but the limitations of today's tech and the difficulty of setup really make it hard to recommend IMO.
Sorry if you thought I was talking about you when I talked about naysayers. I wasn't, in fact after reading your post I considered you a fellow VR and VR Cinema proponent and you were simply cautioning about how we aren't 'There' yet. I think the 3 of us who have mentioned VR in this thread are all in broad agreement just differing in how much each of us can tolerate the current gen deficiencies and how long we think it will take to get to the OLED beating experience. IMHO there is amazing potential with a few more years of technical advancement and even the potential to wipe out not just the Projection segment but the flat panel segment too. If AR sunglasses can get anywhere close to an LED TV nevermind an OLED and you can 'Pin' an Augmented screen of any size on any flat surface in your house, well the Flat Panel market will shrink so much as to make it uneconomical for any further R&D from that point forwards. If the roll up 100" microled wall TV can't be bought for less than the $500 AR/VR Sunglasses that can do so much more, then the wall TV segment is dead. Of course this is all predicated on smartphone level ubiquity. ie. Augmented Wall TV only makes sense if the whole family own a pair of AR/VR sunglasses like we all own a Smartphone nowadays. There are so many benefits and possibilities for AR/VR sunglasses its inevitable that we eventually get them, its just a question of when. I should clarify that the 10 years I talked about was for the experience to be good enough that not even OLED aficionado's would complain in a smaller than now but still too large formfactor but it'll probably be more than 10 year before the waveguide optical tech is perfected enough for the same quality of experience in the sunglasses formfactor which is what it'll have to be before it has a chance of reaching smartphone level ubiquity. Microsoft, Apple, Facebook, Google, all know its coming and see the potential and want in on the action and are spending billions of dollars on the R&D.
 

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I think I have read every post in this thread and I do not recall a single post where anyone said front projection has better image quality than OLED. I am excluding the Christie Eclipse. Have not seen that projector yet.
Let me be the first to say it then. It boils down to what your definition of better image quality is.

Here is the thing for me and I’m sure it will spur some controversy, but I watch classic films and I enjoy what I call film-like qualities. Part of what I consider film-like is the lack of a surface between me and the image that can only so far be achieved with reflected light as it would have been with film. No matter how perfect the light-emitting screen is there is a surface and behind it is where the light comes from I even enjoy the light beam playing on the dust in the air between the projector and the screen.

Then there is the physical size something the VR people understand but can’t quite get there 100% yet. If I could I would love a grand 2000 seat movie palace with people all dressed up and being respectful to others in the theater and VR might even give me that again. But for now I go as large as I can and with blacking everything else away except the image my brain can fill in the rest. There is a size and an immersion you have to reach to make an image film-like as the distance between my two eyes is fixed. That size of a screen is well past 100” and is a size flat panels will likely be out of my price range for the rest of my life.

For me nothing will ever be 100% film-like or even commercial theater like in the way I remember it, but I can get pretty close at home at least close enough.

Even if they could make a projector / screen combination that produced an image huge and just like flat panels that might be most peoples goal but it wouldn’t be mine. :)
 

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Let me be the first to say it then. It boils down to what your definition of better image quality is.

Here is the thing for me and I’m sure it will spur some controversy, but I watch classic films and I enjoy what I call film-like qualities. Part of what I consider film-like is the lack of a surface between me and the image that can only so far be achieved with reflected light as it would have been with film. No matter how perfect the light-emitting screen is there is a surface and behind it is where the light comes from I even enjoy the light beam playing on the dust in the air between the projector and the screen.

Then there is the physical size something the VR people understand but can’t quite get there 100% yet. If I could I would love a grand 2000 seat movie palace with people all dressed up and being respectful to others in the theater and VR might even give me that again. But for now I go as large as I can and with blacking everything else away except the image my brain can fill in the rest. There is a size and an immersion you have to reach to make an image film-like as the distance between my two eyes is fixed. That size of a screen is well past 100” and is a size flat panels will likely be out of my price range for the rest of my life.

For me nothing will ever be 100% film-like or even commercial theater like in the way I remember it, but I can get pretty close at home at least close enough.

Even if they could make a projector / screen combination that produced an image huge and just like flat panels that might be most peoples goal but it wouldn’t be mine. :)
VR is probably the future but I personally wouldn't want to be sitting in a simulated 2000 seater palace because if anything I want the experience to be as intimate as possible which is why I like my little 3 seater room where my seat is the middle one right in the centre of the experience.

I could see other uses for VR apart from gaming and watching movies but best not discuss these here.LOL
 

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VR is probably the future but I personally wouldn't want to be sitting in a simulated 2000 seater palace because if anything I want the experience to be as intimate as possible which is why I like my little 3 seater room where my seat is the middle one right in the centre of the experience.

I could see other uses for VR apart from gaming and watching movies but best not discuss these here.LOL
In the middle of the living room:

 

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I could see other uses for VR apart from gaming and watching movies but best not discuss these here.LOL
The other uses for video technology going way back to the first VHS players likely pushed home theater entertainment market as much as anything. So no doubt it will push the VR market as well. But you are right nothing beats the intimate home theater and the real thing. :)
 

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I have a 65" LG C9 and a JVC RS1000. While the OLED looks phenomenal for most viewing like TV shows and Netflix, there is simply no comparison to a 135" projected image. As they say, size is king.
It is not about what is the better.

This is simple. As flat-screen gets better and larger, fewer and fewer will build a home theater with a projector.

And factor number 2:
Now the remaining die-hard projectors fans already have bought their 4k JVCs og 4k Sony's. So the market to sell more 4k hometheater projectors are shrinking for every second.

And again, I do not say that a flat screen can beat a premium large screen projector home-theater. I just say that fewer and fewer will invest in premium 4k projector due to reason mentioned above.
 

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It is not about what is the better.

This is simple. As flat-screen gets better and larger, fewer and fewer will build a home theater with a projector.

And factor number 2:
Now the remaining die-hard projectors fans already have bought their 4k JVCs og 4k Sony's. So the market to sell more 4k hometheater projectors are shrinking for every second.

And again, I do not say that a flat screen can beat a premium large screen projector home-theater. I just say that fewer and fewer will invest in premium 4k projector due to reason mentioned above.
Well the thought of building a dedicated room and then placing a TV in it sounds awful to me. TV are going to have to get a lot bigger and then there is the audio problem. One is the TV is not AT and two, once the TV does get huge, it will be a bad source for room reflections that you can't do anything with.
 

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Well the thought of building a dedicated room and then placing a TV in it sounds awful to me. TV are going to have to get a lot bigger and then there is the audio problem. One is the TV is not AT and two, once the TV does get huge, it will be a bad source for room reflections that you can't do anything with.
You miss my point totally.

For us die-hard projector fans a flat-screen will never do the trick.

But for the reasons mentioned in my post above the market will shrink and shrink.
 

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You miss my point totally.

For us die-hard projector fans a flat-screen will never do the trick.

But for the reasons mentioned in my post above the market will shrink and shrink.
Maybe, maybe not. It depends what this virus does to the movie theater industry. Right now, projectors are selling much better than usual for this time of the year. If theaters disappear, then theaters in the home will grow. Now granted many will use TV's, but still the projector market could also grow.
 

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Maybe, maybe not. It depends what this virus does to the movie theater industry. Right now, projectors are selling much better than usual for this time of the year. If theaters disappear, then theaters in the home will grow. Now granted many will use TV's, but still the projector market could also grow.
You are right about that Covid-19 is making more invest in a good home-theater.

Do you think that theaters will open without restrictons in the USA this year, and when do you think that they will start showing big-budget blockbuster new releases in theaters?
 

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It is not about what is the better.

This is simple. As flat-screen gets better and larger, fewer and fewer will build a home theater with a projector.

And factor number 2:
Now the remaining die-hard projectors fans already have bought their 4k JVCs og 4k Sony's. So the market to sell more 4k hometheater projectors are shrinking for every second.

And again, I do not say that a flat screen can beat a premium large screen projector home-theater. I just say that fewer and fewer will invest in premium 4k projector due to reason mentioned above.
There are intrinsic problems with large TV's related to storage costs and shipping, the technology is already there to manufacture these TV's cheaply enough (not oLED but others), but the demand isn't great enough to pay for the storage and shipping costs. Giant TV's will likely always fetch a premium, not sure when we'll see 110" TV's under $10,000, no idea but I wouldn't hold my breath. 100" maybe in a few more years...

They have some commercial 98" TV's under $10k now, but no idea on contrast ratios (probably low) since they specifically label them as "commercial use".

Lowest cost has always been the main driver in electronics, and the higher-end stuff has always been fairly niche.
 

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There are intrinsic problems with large TV's related to storage costs and shipping, the technology is already there to manufacture these TV's cheaply enough (not oLED but others), but the demand isn't great enough to pay for the storage and shipping costs. Giant TV's will likely always fetch a premium, not sure when we'll see 110" TV's under $10,000, no idea but I wouldn't hold my breath. 100" maybe in a few more years...

They have some commercial 98" TV's under $10k now, but no idea on contrast ratios (probably low) since they specifically label them as "commercial use".

Lowest cost has always been the main driver in electronics, and the higher-end stuff has always been fairly niche.
Yes, but flat-screens in 75-85 inch range are large enough to most, and they feel that is satisfying enough. Yes many still would prefer a larger image with projector, but it is other issues to consider as well, and more an more people is satisfied with the compromise.

And as said before. The die-hard fans of projectors do now (mostly) own a 4k JVC og 4k Sony, so they are already there, and they have little incentive to buy or replace the projector, and therefore a shrinking market.
 

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This is simple for me. Projectors are dying because prices are sky high still. Projectors should be under 1k and screens should be under 1k. Nope.
 
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