AVS Forum banner

141 - 160 of 400 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,807 Posts
So I just happened across this grenade thread, lol. Agree with the consensus of course, but there is one thing I don't think I saw mentioned which to me is a huge factor.

Not all content warrants the same screen size. I don't have the fortune of having a dedicated theater room so I have to made do with a LR theater. I love having a big projection screen in my LR, but I don't want to watch some stuff on it so I have a retractable screen that drops down over the 65" OLED. Best of both worlds. My wife can watch game shows and silly reality TV stuff which does NOT need a big projection screen, but then we can fire up the projector for a movie or maybe some of the cinematic level Netflix 4K DV content. I like having *both* and it's just a trollish provocation to suggest that I must choose only one for all content.

Also, Jinjer f'n rules.
It is not one or the other. I figure 99.9% of the people that have a front projector setup, also have a flat panel.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
@DavidHir Also, the specs of the Lumis may interest you.

A 3x 0.95" dmd projector. 6000:1 native, 30000:1 dynamic, 1500 lumens. Contrast should track fairly similar to the hdr duo in the above graph. It's 3chip so theres no rbe. A later model has a color filter to hit p3. Ive seen used models lately selling for 2-3000
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
28,807 Posts
The 15k:1 dynamic does effectively offset the milky grey of the lower native contrast in low apl scenes. Its not 150k:1 inky black, but provides a good black floor and perceived contrast is exceptional.

This is not light output matched but does give a good idea of the contrast performance of the projector



RBE has been dealt with for a long time by use of 3 separate leds, and now lasers. Color frequency is 800-900hz and rainbows are completely alleviated. Additionally motion performance is improved as well due to avoiding flicker introduced by switching off the dmd in between color wheel segments.


JVC has been returning native contrast to 1080p chip levels, and before that they refined auto-iris performance, but has the technologies contrast or black floor improved beyond that? I find D-ILA contrast very wanting over 3% ADL and its not just due to the black floor but the modulation performance and light source.

No arguing against the performance of the XPR chips, its abysmal.


I really hope we're not that far off, the 2 chip designs exist, light sources are bright enough to offset the light loss.


I hope this hasnt been perceived as brandism or fanboyism. If the market clamors for high contrast dlp it improves our chances of seeing it. Referencing DLPs technological strengths compared to other video technologies adds to the discussion.
You are comparing what, 9th generation 1080P home theater panels to 2nd generation 4k home theater panels. The rate of improvement is moving a lot faster with 4k. The 4500 was around 10,000:1 native, iris fully open. The RS3000 is around 30,000:1 iris wide open. That is a huge improvement in one generation.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
You are comparing what, 9th generation 1080P home theater panels to 2nd generation 4k home theater panels. The rate of improvement is moving a lot faster with 4k. The 4500 was around 10,000:1 native, iris fully open. The RS3000 is around 30,000:1 iris wide open. That is a huge improvement in one generation.
I think what I said was right... The 2160p chips are playing catchup to the 1080p chips, but will they be able to progress beyond that?
What was the rs640s comparablely?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
5 Posts
It is not one or the other. I figure 99.9% of the people that have a front projector setup, also have a flat panel.
Concur- I have a 46''/106" setup in my living room. The idea of putting a fixed, monster sized display permanently on the wall is an aesthetic non-starter.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
If something more blatantly on topic is necessary, you could say that not only is projection not dead, but a technology that most people here have written off as dead is currently the reference for video. And potentially able to make a massive comeback in the consumer market.
@Mike Garrett, Ive got a couple interesting thoughts.

With 2chip dlp, contrast is native and not dynamic in the sense that light output is not reduced the lower the ADL. So your concern that lower light output would be inadequate could be offset by the fact that low adl light output will be higher, at the same or even superior contrast levels to dila with the auto-iris. Aided by any truth that rgb led/laser dlp appears brighter than measured. As well as increased saturation, especially natively without a filter, appearing brighter.

Also, that DLPs higher high ADL contrast or even ANSI contrast isnt important due to our eyes our being drawn towards the brighter parts of the image. However, in typical video content, Ive been noticing that brighter scenes often have your eyes focused on a darker part of the image. In this case when we look at the brighter part of the image our eyes iris closes, but when we look back at the dark area it opens and are able to discern more contrast despite bright areas of the image. Darker skinned persons are a good example of this, and faces not in direct light. And in brighter scenes I can still often register the black of the masking. When our eyes are drawn to the brighter part of the image, the image is typically low APL with more black, and when our eyes are focused on the brighter parts of the image, our eyes iris closes and we're able to discern the black level less.

This impacts sharpness as well(oof broken record). Part of perceived sharpness is the difference between high and low frequency information, in brighter scenes despite not having a visible black floor, that contrast figure affects both sharpness and color contrast, and overall detail.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18 Posts
When it comes down to it, you can talk all you want about performance but size ultimately does matter ;)

I might feel differently if I had a dedicated theater room as it would be a pain to go back and forth up stairs to the kitchen/restroom, but even though we have a 4k 65" TV on the wall in our living room, when I say "Alexa, turn on the projector" the lift comes out of the ceiling with an epson faux k (4010), the tensioned ALR screen rolls down, and I honestly don't ever use my TV unless I'm chromecasting some music (I know, I know). My head is 8.5 feet away from a 106" screen and it's perfect for that distance but also works well if we're walking around the kitchen which is in the same room facing the projector - makes it very easy to get refills and live casually with something in the center of the home.

I thought we would use my TV more, but once I got the projector setup, it's no more difficult and the experience is just so much better - the darker darks just don't matter nearly as much as the bigger view especially in a room that doesn't have great light characteristics anyway. My living/kitchen room has 6 large 8ft sliding glass doors, 2 3x5 windows, and a 3x4 bay window - and I don't even have to close the blinds for sports or HGTV in the daytime. When the scenes are darker, it's usually movies and then I'll draw the blackout curtains just like I would for the TV (usually at night too).
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,911 Posts
I made this comment about 6 months ago and was jumped on but after buying a LG 2020 OLED CX 65" Im gonna ask it again. I recognize Ill be slammed (especially by the vendors who hand around here)

I have a 4K HDR projector in my theater on a 120" screen (Epson) and I find I dont even go down there any more after buying this OLED. Even Netfix shows in 4K HDR and Dolby Vision are simply STUNNING. I've run projectors now for 15 years. Im currently using this OLED as my gaming monitor at 4K and 120 hrz with the eArc out to my Marantz (So I get Dolby Atmos even on Netflix... making my ~100 4K blurays start to seem outdated too)

So as I buy a new house and have a dedicated theater space (18" x 14") that I plan to run 7.2.4 Dolby Atmos in, my plan is to dump a projector purchase and go with a LG 77" OLED (or whatever they have next year at this time when its built). All I gotta do is adjust seating distance and its all the same. With my icons on my second 27" monitor, start menu hidden and black desktop, the LG's black is so perfect that the TV looks like its turned off if I dont have anything on it.

Unless you are buying a $50,000 with a laser, I cant see anything comparing to this LG OLED... not even the best Atmos theaters I've been too.

The days of projectors are gone... into the niche. Long live the OLED... I HOPE we can start seeing some reasonably priced units in the 80-90-100 inch range in the future.
I’m not going to jump on you for this decision because it’s up to each individual how you feel. On a personal note I like many others here own a rather larger OLED TV in my family room which has light coloured walls and ceiling but as you are already aware none of these things are an issue to a regular TV, the image and blacks especially are better than my Epson projector, in fact I’m not sure any projector would match an OLED at this but despite all this I would never consider watch a movie for serious viewing with my TV.

There’s something about the way a projected image looks that appeals more, maybe because it’s the same as going to the local cinema but it’s a difference I prefer. I think if your home cinema room is right where you only see the screen and not the walls, floor or ceiling then it’s an experience that will always knock spots off the best TVs.
 
  • Like
Reactions: shivaji

·
Registered
Joined
·
66 Posts
Samsung’s modular TV is a game changer as it addresses flexibility in screen size, ability to bring them through standard size doors regardless of the”screen” size, etc. Once the price of that technology comes down (substantially) projectors will be for a very small, niche market. Like vinyl record turn tables there will Be people that want them but the size of the market, and therefore product choices, will be very limited. But that’s 10 years away yet.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
15,071 Posts
Samsung’s modular TV is a game changer as it addresses flexibility in screen size, ability to bring them through standard size doors regardless of the”screen” size, etc. Once the price of that technology comes down (substantially) projectors will be for a very small, niche market. Like vinyl record turn tables there will Be people that want them but the size of the market, and therefore product choices, will be very limited. But that’s 10 years away yet.
Pixel fill ruins this tech, it will never be possible to lego-align all these panels to the point of having a high enough pixel density, unless you are sitting like 25+ feet back and don't mind building a 200"+ screen out of the panels, so since most people do not have rooms that long, this tech will not make it. People have talked about the roll-out oLED from a curved panel, but it has its own issues and installing a giant screen like that would be a monumental task for a DIY person.

Most of us will be long gone before this happens, the manufacturing costs cannot be lowered simply by volume like most other technologies. Micro oLED is not even close to being able to be manufactured at a low enough cost, some other tech will replace before it even gets near cost-effective for the quality of the image.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
60 Posts
For anyone interested I created this spreadsheet when I was sizing my own screen and seating distance (2.40 130" diagonal screen, 10.25 feet from screen). It gives the THX and SMPTE recommendations for viewing distance for screen width/height and calculates the equivalent 1.78 screen size for viewing on 2.40 scope screen and vice versa. Hope someone finds it useful.

https://1drv.ms/x/s!AiYGPU4WvudLiFVSaKuRZ_gxf9KC?e=hS5ln2*

*Disclaimer: I accept no responsibility for errors found in this spreadsheet :p
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,919 Posts
if ya'll watching only latest tv/movies then i guess it may work.

but if you watch anything older than a decade and older films... i'd say there's a huge advantage of larger screens.

99% of the tv/movie content is not 4k/uhr. i'd even venture to say a majority of them aren't even 1080p HD ready >P.

There's a lot of 4K HDR media, and newer productions besides being 4K HDR have also great production quality (and older series) that look better on larger screen.


There is an issue with contrast/black level on projectors in the low end, and even with higher CR in living rooms, but that can be remediated (to an extent) with an ALR screen/ALR paint mix. Fabrics by themselves are cheap and with a 5040UB refurb, used Sony/JVC/Epson UB series a nice setup can be had for under $2K.
Or with a 5050UB. Outside the US the TW9400 is significantly cheaper than the 5050UB.


Aided by any truth that rgb led/laser dlp appears brighter than measured. As well as increased saturation, especially natively without a filter, appearing brighter.
Can you elaborate on this?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
380 Posts
If something more blatantly on topic is necessary, you could say that not only is projection not dead, but a technology that most people here have written off as dead is currently the reference for video. And potentially able to make a massive comeback in the consumer market.

@Mike Garrett, Ive got a couple interesting thoughts.

With 2chip dlp, contrast is native and not dynamic in the sense that light output is not reduced the lower the ADL. So your concern that lower light output would be inadequate could be offset by the fact that low adl light output will be higher, at the same or even superior contrast levels to dila with the auto-iris. Aided by any truth that rgb led/laser dlp appears brighter than measured. As well as increased saturation, especially natively without a filter, appearing brighter.

Also, that DLPs higher high ADL contrast or even ANSI contrast isnt important due to our eyes our being drawn towards the brighter parts of the image. However, in typical video content, Ive been noticing that brighter scenes often have your eyes focused on a darker part of the image. In this case when we look at the brighter part of the image our eyes iris closes, but when we look back at the dark area it opens and are able to discern more contrast despite bright areas of the image. Darker skinned persons are a good example of this, and faces not in direct light. And in brighter scenes I can still often register the black of the masking. When our eyes are drawn to the brighter part of the image, the image is typically low APL with more black, and when our eyes are focused on the brighter parts of the image, our eyes iris closes and we're able to discern the black level less.

This impacts sharpness as well(oof broken record). Part of perceived sharpness is the difference between high and low frequency information, in brighter scenes despite not having a visible black floor, that contrast figure affects both sharpness and color contrast, and overall detail.
Projection is now the reference for video?

I thought most films were made on reference OLED monitors, hence OLED would be the reference.

I've never heard films being produced or mastered on projectors. I've never even heard of a reference projector.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,911 Posts
Projection is now the reference for video?

I thought most films were made on reference OLED monitors, hence OLED would be the reference.

I've never heard films being produced or mastered on projectors. I've never even heard of a reference projector.
No doubt about it HDR has been developed for OLED not projectors.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
380 Posts
No doubt about it HDR has been developed for OLED not projectors.


Thanks. I am confused when people use reference when talking about PJs as if they are mastering devices.

I LOVE projectors but I know if I edit a photo on my PJ, it will NOT be representative of what people see on every other screen device.

PJs offer so much, namely size and immersion but i think starting to refer to them as reference (which normally means reference monitors) is just taking it a bit far lol. Especially with HDR in the mix which has at present specular highlight brightness which projectors can't do due to no local dimming.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
Can you elaborate on this?
Kind of... The color saturation is well studied.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Helmholtz–Kohlrausch_effect

But there's something about the narrow band high color yield of rgb led/laser, and maybe the lack of any color wheel, color filter, or layer of liquid crystal between the light source and your eyes, though persons using 3chip dlp don't find this to be the case. But it appears brighter then it measures. Especially low APL scenes with the dimming, I'd never know that I was looking at 5fl.

Projection is now the reference for video? I thought most films were made on reference OLED monitors, hence OLED would be the reference. I've never heard films being produced or mastered on projectors. I've never even heard of a reference projector.
A mastering monitor and the reference display in a screening room are very different.

The Eclipse is without any doubt the reference for HDR video. It's a real treat just to read about
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/3018138-christie-eclipse-projector-5.html#post57023378

No doubt about it HDR has been developed for OLED not projectors.
Not necessarily ;] HDR was developed for high dynamic range displays. The Eclipse has the high dynamic range, in addition it has the color gamut. And again the pixel performance of DLP is superior to OLED.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
380 Posts
A mastering monitor and the reference display in a screening room are very different.

The Eclipse is without any doubt the reference for HDR video. It's a real treat just to read about
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/86-ultra-hi-end-ht-gear-20-000/3018138-christie-eclipse-projector-5.html#post57023378


Not necessarily ;] HDR was developed for high dynamic range displays. The Eclipse has the high dynamic range, in addition it has the color gamut. And again the pixel performance of DLP is superior to OLED.


Can you please refer specifically to the eclipse and not projectors then?

Not sure if you did it in the last post but the conversation has somehow for some people on this thread veered from Projectors vs OLEDs to the Eclipse vs OLEDs, and built on assumptions that the Eclipse will magically become affordable in the next couple of years; despite the price of a native 4K DILA Projector still being fairly high.

Maybe we should just bring microLED into the conversation whilst we're at it.

Just because one single projector which isn't available in our homes for less than £10k can debatably be a reference monitor, doesn't mean all projectors can.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,797 Posts
Can you please refer specifically to the eclipse and not projectors then? Not sure if you did it in the last post but the conversation has somehow for some people on this thread veered from Projectors vs OLEDs to the Eclipse vs OLEDs, and built on assumptions that the Eclipse will magically become affordable in the next couple of years; despite the price of a native 4K DILA Projector still being fairly high. Maybe we should just bring microLED into the conversation whilst we're at it.
I'm confused, a $40,000 30" mastering monitor is fair game but the projector isn't? The title of the thread is projection is dead, but the reference viewing display is a projector. Video performance is comparable to quantum dot microLED, if not superior when you take into account the aspects of projection vs emissive displays. microLED is also going to have reduced brightness when using pulsed rolling scan to overcome sample and hold motion artifacts which DLP naturally avoids. Is microLED going to avoid all voltage overshooting? while more recent OLED panels it's less of an issue, it's still technically inferior modulation, though microLEDs response time is comparable to DLP so it should be a non-issue.

The Eclipse is a no holds barred 6 chip projector with massive laser arrays to illuminate very large screens. RGB laser DLP projectors that can provide 100% bt2020 coverage are just now getting below $10,000, and it's reasonable to discuss a 2chip DLP projector would be similarly priced. The technology exists, it just hasn't been built yet.
 
141 - 160 of 400 Posts
Top