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It's been four years since Mr. Kane has released a projector with Samsung. I own the infamous SP-H710AE (knock on wood mine hasn't failed) and it is still the most luscious picture I've seen on a digital projector. Perfect colors, not oversaturated and artifically punchy.


My question is - what other projectors are capable of the same accuracy or better in the 1080P realm besides Samsung's own SP-A800B and SP-A900B models?
 

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I know this doesn't answer your question directly, but back when these projectors came out I don't think most people had given a lot of thought to how luma levels mattered for correct primaries and secondaries, or how colors at levels other than 100% could be way off even if the colors at 100% measured correctly.


There have been some pretty big advancements in some of the measurement tools generally used here for getting relevant values for colors.


While the xy coordinates for the primaries and secondaries were very good on these Samsung projectors, from what I have heard the luma levels were not necessarily correct. A primary with more luma can look much more saturated than one with less even with the same xy coordinates. If the luma levels are way off from what is specified by REC.709 then the display isn't really doing REC.709, although the tools at the time wouldn't generally indicate that.


I heard about a recent flat panel that measured great at 100% levels, but at other levels had huge errors, but don't know what model it was. Color accuracy can be a little hard to figure out depending on how strict a person wants to be.


As far as overall accuracy to REC.709 for both xy and luma for primaries and secondaries I think there is a good chance there are some newer models that would be closer to REC.709 than the A900B, especially after calibration.


As far as film-like images it seems like the JVCs and Sonys are popular for those, but may not be the same kind of "film-like" as the Samsung A900B for instance. Different people can have different views on what film-like means to them.


--Darin
 

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There are PLENTY of projectors that can deliver color accuracy on par or better than the Joe Kane Samsung model. But they can also deliver far better blacks which means they can also offer a far more accurate gamma without crush. Plus I don't think I'll ever think of single chip DLP as "film-like" since there are obvious artifacts associated with that type of video system. Yes the image can look fantastic, but there is a reason single chip DLP is not considered the primo video playback platform anymore.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...ture-in-digital-projectors/0_50#post_24180491


There are PLENTY of projectors that can deliver color accuracy on par or better than the Joe Kane Samsung model. But they can also deliver far better blacks which means they can also offer a far more accurate gamma without crush. Plus I don't think I'll ever think of single chip DLP as "film-like" since there are obvious artifacts associated with that type of video system. Yes the image can look fantastic, but there is a reason single chip DLP is not considered the primo video playback platform anymore.

I don't think I can agree with the last two sentences. I know off the top of my head the Samsung SP-A800B and Planar PD8150 had the most natural looking images from any of the projectors I've owned thus far. The JVC's, while looking great, can look a tad processed. That doesn't mean they look bad, but I don't think they have the kind of naturalness some single chip DLPs can achieve. The one caveat, like you mentioned, is that these models cannot match the native contrast some of the LCoS models have.


For instance, go up to your screen and display a static image like a Windows desktop background on your JVC. Disable extraneous video processing like e-shift, noise removers, ect and turn down the sharpness all the way. You'll notice a TON of noise that the projector itself is creating that isn't there in the actual image. The X3, X30, X55R, and X90R all have had this issue and I've tested it from many source players, PCs, with different HDMI cables, ect. The noise is not defeatable. I don't know if you have access to either of the aforementioned models anymore or something like a Sharp XV-Z20000, Marantz VP-11S1, 11S2, 15S1, or even a Samsung SP-A900B, but if you were to do the same on those models you would see an almost perfect noise free image, even on lower APL content. These models in particular are fantastic at low APL dithering, or should I say the lack of it from any normal viewing distance.


Now, these are just a few DLP models that I've mentioned. By far and large the vast majority of single chip DLPs DO NOT function like this and a JVC would actually fare better. These models also offer VERY nice lenses that can delineate pixels beyond a JVC (ie high natural sharpness) and offer ANSI contrast far higher than any JVC which will aid to that naturalness. Every technology has it's trade offs and DLP just cannot compete with on/off contrast so you'll need to pick your poison, but I just don't agree with your statement about DLPs not being able to provide a top notch natural looking image, especially when you're trying to say that a JVC is better. From my experience that just isn't the case.


Yes, right now I do own a JVC DLA-X90 and am happy with it, but I still have a soft spot for higher end DLP models and I will continue to defend their honor because they still have attributes that best any JVC out there. Maybe I've misunderstood you and you are defining film-like and natural as two separate things. I tend to find them synonymous with each other.
 

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So you're saying that a single chip DLP has less intrinsic noise in its image than a LCOS or SXRD display? Really? Despite the fact that dither is part of what makes up a DLP single chip system??? And never mind RBE, which is totally natural and film like.


I agree that single chip DLP can look great and I've owned several single chip DLP projectors like the Planar 8150 you mentioned but all the touting of a sharper image with benefits of higher ANSI go right out the window in comparisons. I've done matched comparisons of single chip DLPs (Marantz, Samsung and Planar) to several JVC projectors that I've had on hand and the only time any sharpness benefit was shown from DLP was from fixed menus or PC static scenes. At the pixel level or with moving image there wasn't any benefit. Darin and I did a lot of tests for scenes we could find that would show an obvious benefit for the ANSI contrast of the DLPs compared to the JVC as well and came up brutally short.


But I'll tell you what, I am offering an open invitation to anyone that wants to bring a ringer single chip DLP over to do direct comparisons to the X75R I have in house right now. We will ensure that everything is a level playing field. I bet you'd find the results would change your opinion in many ways. I know I was quite surprised at the results of a comparison I did just a few short weeks ago with a Marantz 11S2 compared to the X75R. It wasn't even close.
 

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I don't want to turn this into another DLP vs LCoS debate. I've been meaning to respond to the OP all day.


OP: I would say don't waste your money on this model. There are several single chip DLPs that would be better that you can get used for around that price that have a known track record for high performance/reliability for around that price. That's what I'd recommend if you really want to stick with DLP. If you aren't 100% positive you want to stick with DLP, I'd check out a newer generation JVC. They are great projectors. On this forum many (including me) tend to nitpick way too much. By far and large, the average person who hasn't seen dozens of projectors will find that overall the JVC puts out the nicest looking images that can be had for under $10000. When you've been blessed to see dozens of projectors you can get addicted to one specific picture quality feature (high sharpness, high ANSI contrast, or high on/off contrast) and deem something that isn't a JVC better because that feature is more important to you. This is why some people still swear by DLP as it can still do several things better than any JVC so far. But ignorance is bliss and this is especially true in the front projection world.


You can pick up a refurbished JVC DLA-RS45 (or RS40, or RS46) for as low as $1500 through eBay or direct through a JVC authorized dealer like AVScience. JVC themselves from time to time lists refurb units on their ebay store. These units come with full 3 year warranties and so do the units places like AVScience sell. That is what I'd recommend because you know through tons of professional and user reviews that these projectors are the real deal. I personally wouldn't spend $1000 on something I knew nothing about. From the looks of it it will not perform anywhere near as good as the SP-A800B or SP-A900B. The lens alone was the biggest asset those two models had and you can tell from the pictures of that model, that it doesn't use that awesome lens.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...e-picture-in-digital-projectors#post_24180632


So you're saying that a single chip DLP has less intrinsic noise in its image than a LCOS or SXRD display? Really? Despite the fact that dither is part of what makes up a DLP single chip system??? And never mind RBE, which is totally natural and film like.


I agree that single chip DLP can look great and I've owned several single chip DLP projectors like the Planar 8150 you mentioned but all the touting of a sharper image with benefits of higher ANSI go right out the window in comparisons. I've done matched comparisons of single chip DLPs (Marantz, Samsung and Planar) to several JVC projectors that I've had on hand and the only time any sharpness benefit was shown from DLP was from fixed menus or PC static scenes. At the pixel level or with moving image there wasn't any benefit. Darin and I did a lot of tests for scenes we could find that would show an obvious benefit for the ANSI contrast of the DLPs compared to the JVC as well and came up brutally short.


But I'll tell you what, I am offering an open invitation to anyone that wants to bring a ringer single chip DLP over to do direct comparisons to the X75R I have in house right now. We will ensure that everything is a level playing field. I bet you'd find the results would change your opinion in many ways. I know I was quite surprised at the results of a comparison I did just a few short weeks ago with a Marantz 11S2 compared to the X75R. It wasn't even close.

I was fascinated by the results you and Darin wrote about, at that time.


People also talk about the Sony projectors having more "pop" and "punch" and other such characteristics often associated with higher ansi numbers. I believe the Sonys have higher measured ANSI than JVCs, but not into the DLP

level.


Have you compared Sony projectors with the JVCs looking for such differences, as you have with the DLPs?


(The problem of course is always the variability in image brightness, since a brighter image in of itself can look "higher ansi" in characteristic to teh dimmer image. I'd be interested in your findings with the Sony VW600ES in terms

of image quality, especially in bright scenes, with brightness equalized to your JVC)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...ture-in-digital-projectors/0_50#post_24180632


So you're saying that a single chip DLP has less intrinsic noise in its image than a LCOS or SXRD display? Really? Despite the fact that dither is part of what makes up a DLP single chip system??? And never mind RBE, which is totally natural and film like.


I agree that single chip DLP can look great and I've owned several single chip DLP projectors like the Planar 8150 you mentioned but all the touting of a sharper image with benefits of higher ANSI go right out the window in comparisons. I've done matched comparisons of single chip DLPs (Marantz, Samsung and Planar) to several JVC projectors that I've had on hand and the only time any sharpness benefit was shown from DLP was from fixed menus or PC static scenes. At the pixel level or with moving image there wasn't any benefit. Darin and I did a lot of tests for scenes we could find that would show an obvious benefit for the ANSI contrast of the DLPs compared to the JVC as well and came up brutally short.


But I'll tell you what, I am offering an open invitation to anyone that wants to bring a ringer single chip DLP over to do direct comparisons to the X75R I have in house right now. We will ensure that everything is a level playing field. I bet you'd find the results would change your opinion in many ways. I know I was quite surprised at the results of a comparison I did just a few short weeks ago with a Marantz 11S2 compared to the X75R. It wasn't even close.

If I had my Planar PD8150 still I would've brought my X90 with me too to show you what I'm talking about. Seriously try what I said. Go up to your screen and look. It's easier to see on solid color backgrounds. The easiest color to see it on is green. Download a movie trailer and pause it at the beginning green screen and go up to your screen and look at the noise. The closer you stand to the screen the easier it is to see what I'm talking about on the JVCs. I've seen the same intrinsic noise on the X3, X30, X55R, and now the X90. I don't remember seeing it on the RS10 or RS20 but at that point I wasn't stress testing every projector I had so it could've been there too. It's not something that the DLP models I mentioned have. They definitely have a cleaner image.
 

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As I've mentioned before, I found my RS55 (first E-shift model) produced more image noise than the JVC RS20 it replaced, pretty much like that described by Seegs. (It's also noisier with noise in dark scenes. It's gorgeous with well transferred material, but if there is some noise in darker areas due to film grain or poor compression, it brings out "dancing" image noise in those areas on the RS55, which did not occur on the RS20 (or, if so, much more rarely).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...e-picture-in-digital-projectors#post_24180696


I was fascinated by the results you and Darin wrote about, at that time.


People also talk about the Sony projectors having more "pop" and "punch" and other such characteristics often associated with higher ansi numbers. I believe the Sonys have higher measured ANSI than JVCs, but not into the DLP

level.


Have you compared Sony projectors with the JVCs looking for such differences, as you have with the DLPs?


(The problem of course is always the variability in image brightness, since a brighter image in of itself can look "higher ansi" in characteristic to teh dimmer image. I'd be interested in your findings with the Sony VW600ES in terms

of image quality, especially in bright scenes, with brightness equalized to your JVC)

Image brightness is the best and worst thing for projectors. I love a bright image but I also HATE how people start going apeshit over their new projectors talking about how much punchier they are not even taking into account the new bulb and brightness (or say that they take that into account, riiiigghhhttt). If you are going to compare two projectors you have to match their light output unless the comparison is for the sake of how much light they can offer for an image.


I would love to compare the newer Sony's with the JVC but haven't had the chance yet. I've heard nothing but great things about both the 1000ES and 600ES but haven't had the chance to tinker with one myself. I got to play around with a 1000ES at a dealer's setup but walked away unimpressed but I didn't set it up and I don't know what he had wrong/right with the setup. I wanted to come back and do all the tuning myself but he sold it and didn't replace it with a new one.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...e-picture-in-digital-projectors#post_24180697


If I had my Planar PD8150 still I would've brought my X90 with me too to show you what I'm talking about. Seriously try what I said. Go up to your screen and look. It's easier to see on solid color backgrounds. The easiest color to see it on is green. Download a movie trailer and pause it at the beginning green screen and go up to your screen and look at the noise. The closer you stand to the screen the easier it is to see what I'm talking about on the JVCs. I've seen the same intrinsic noise on the X3, X30, X55R, and now the X90. I don't remember seeing it on the RS10 or RS20 but at that point I wasn't stress testing every projector I had so it could've been there too. It's not something that the DLP models I mentioned have. They definitely have a cleaner image.

I know exactly what you are talking about. It stems from JVC trying to eliminate some of the banding that was noticeable in ramps early on (and motion issues) by dithering the image (much like a DLP does). I agree completely that at the screen it is visible (as it is on a DLP) but from my normal seating distance (1.5 - 1.8x) it is anything but an issue. DLP has far more distractions (RBE, dither, lack of contrast, color wheel noise, etc) than LCOS at this point, by a LARGE margin. But again, I would love for someone to bring a DLP over and do some testing with me and prove me wrong. My doors are ALWAYS open to fun stuff like that, and I have absolutely NO issue at all with being proved wrong. Certainly wouldn't be the first time!!
 

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Also, I don't want people reading this to think that the JVC's are "noisy" because I don't think the issue I'm talking about is bad enough to label them that way. They just happen to have more inherent noise compared to some other projectors. The noise I'm talking about is only rarely visible from normal seating distances which will be seen on solid color backgrounds which are fairly rare with video/film content hence the rarity of people actually seeing it. If you sit close to the screen YMMV with seeing it regularly and will depend on your visual acuity. But it has definitely been there for several generations now.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...e-picture-in-digital-projectors#post_24180728


"Dancing" noise is a great term for it. That's exactly what it looks like. I've heard some people say it's an inherent dithering issue. But I'm no expert so I don't want to label it as such because I don't know if that's truly what the noise is.

Yeah, I first noticed it when setting up the focus on my RS55. Close to the screen I could see all this dithering noise that I never saw with the RS20. I still see my RS20 in action at my friends' place (he bought it from me) and

it's so low in image noise.


And yet, on the other hand, from my actual viewing distance, one of the characteristics I see when engaging E-shift is a slightly more solid looking image! Go figure.
 

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One thing to keep in mind, you can not even think about replacing one of these high end DLPs for what they sell for used. How much do you have to spend on a New projector to surpass the total image quality of one of the aforementioned high end DLPs?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...e-picture-in-digital-projectors#post_24180749


I know exactly what you are talking about. It stems from JVC trying to eliminate some of the banding that was noticeable in ramps early on (and motion issues) by dithering the image (much like a DLP does). I agree completely that at the screen it is visible (as it is on a DLP) but from my normal seating distance (1.5 - 1.8x) it is anything but an issue. DLP has far more distractions (RBE, dither, lack of contrast, color wheel noise, etc) than LCOS at this point, by a LARGE margin. But again, I would love for someone to bring a DLP over and do some testing with me and prove me wrong. My doors are ALWAYS open to fun stuff like that, and I have absolutely NO issue at all with being proved wrong. Certainly wouldn't be the first time!!

I was always sensitive to the DLP RBE.


A weird thing happened to me, though, when I replaced my JVC RS20 with the RS55. The motion on the RS55 looked to me significantly more blurry, to the point I had a hard time watching it at points. I did everything to try and figure out what was "wrong" and what had changed, and why I was suddenly seeing image blur. When I directly compared it to my RS20, they actually looked very similar, and yet when my eyes watched the RS55 it drove me nuts.


Over time, this issue petered out and a month after owning the RS55 it became pretty much a non-issue. It doesn't even look blurry when I look for it, for the most part. Clearly it was a perceptual thing - something my brain was latching on to, and exaggerating to begin with, and then likely getting used to, so it "disappeared" as an issue. (I presume the issue was my experiencing the sample and hold effect).


I wonder if that would have happened with the RBE. The problem with the RBE is that it seemed like it could go either way: you either get used to it and it becomes a non-issue, or it drives you more crazy over time.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kris Deering  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...ture-in-digital-projectors/0_50#post_24180749


I know exactly what you are talking about. It stems from JVC trying to eliminate some of the banding that was noticeable in ramps early on (and motion issues) by dithering the image (much like a DLP does). I agree completely that at the screen it is visible (as it is on a DLP) but from my normal seating distance (1.5 - 1.8x) it is anything but an issue. DLP has far more distractions (RBE, dither, lack of contrast, color wheel noise, etc) than LCOS at this point, by a LARGE margin. But again, I would love for someone to bring a DLP over and do some testing with me and prove me wrong. My doors are ALWAYS open to fun stuff like that, and I have absolutely NO issue at all with being proved wrong. Certainly wouldn't be the first time!!

Kris, if you didn't live literally on the other side of the nation, I'd be over all the time to prove you wrong.



I respect your opinion, but I just don't agree with your view on (certain) DLPs and image noise. The models I mentioned have a cleaner looking image compared to the newer JVCs. When I still had the PD8150 and other DLP models I put them side by side next to many recent JVCs models and the PD8150, among others, had less noise (including dithering noise) I'm fairly certain the unishape lamp modulation helped as it creates 1-2 extra bits of color information.


I know Zombie has a PD8130 and two JVCs right now. Maybe he can take a quick look and give us an extra subjective opinion on the matter.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...e-picture-in-digital-projectors#post_24180697


If I had my Planar PD8150 still I would've brought my X90 with me too to show you what I'm talking about. Seriously try what I said. Go up to your screen and look. It's easier to see on solid color backgrounds. The easiest color to see it on is green. Download a movie trailer and pause it at the beginning green screen and go up to your screen and look at the noise. The closer you stand to the screen the easier it is to see what I'm talking about on the JVCs. I've seen the same intrinsic noise on the X3, X30, X55R, and now the X90. I don't remember seeing it on the RS10 or RS20 but at that point I wasn't stress testing every projector I had so it could've been there too. It's not something that the DLP models I mentioned have. They definitely have a cleaner image.

Definitely cleaner...as long as your boring holes in your screen looking at a solid green screen for 18 hours straight! You'll see all kindsa' strange $hit after that...



All joking aside, its just a preference thing. I convinced myself I was a DLP projector guy because all of the early projectors I saw had sharpness issues, except the DLPs. Well, now that Sony and JVC have gone to work closing the sharpness and pixel gap, other things are much more obvious to me than the difference in sharpness. I won't rant about how great the new JVCs are, almost surely, most of this will wear off after the brightness drops 20-30% and the bulbs stabilize. But, when the dust clears, and everyone calibrates and really dials these babys in...I have a feeling there are going to be bou-coup single chip DLPs (and even older LCD, LCOS/SXRD) go for sale on ebay because they see how sharp these new machines are, and the black level smokes anything we've seen from a DLP under $15K. I just traded a 5 year old Sim2 for an RS4910 and, as far as picture quality goes, there's no contest...newer technology wins hands down! (regardless of the 4 X MSRP difference).


Anyway, to the OP, try to see one in person first...and bring your Samsung and an HDMI switcher so you can A-B and see what a differnce there is.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...ture-in-digital-projectors/0_50#post_24180834


Definitely cleaner...as long as your boring holes in your screen looking at a solid green screen for 18 hours straight! You'll see all kindsa' strange $hit after that...



All joking aside, its just a preference thing. I convinced myself I was a DLP projector guy because all of the early projectors I saw had sharpness issues, except the DLPs. Well, now that Sony and JVC have gone to work closing the sharpness and pixel gap, other things are much more obvious to me than the difference in sharpness. I won't rant about how great the new JVCs are, almost surely, most of this will wear off after the brightness drops 20-30% and the bulbs stabilize. But, when the dust clears, and everyone calibrates and really dials these babys in...I have a feeling there are going to be bou-coup single chip DLPs (and even older LCD, LCOS/SXRD) go for sale on ebay because they see how sharp these new machines are, and the black level smokes anything we've seen from a DLP under $15K. I just traded a 5 year old Sim2 for an RS4910 and, as far as picture quality goes, there's no contest...newer technology wins hands down! (regardless of the 4 X MSRP difference).


Anyway, to the OP, try to see one in person first...and bring your Samsung and an HDMI switcher so you can A-B and see what a differnce there is.

That's partly why I have the JVC now. It just does so much, so well. As Rich pointed out, motion has never been a D-ILA strong suit and I think starting with the 4th generation D-ILA panels that were put in the 2012 models (RS45,55, 65) and newer handle motion better now. Before there was way too much "smear" in the image for me to handle. It's very well behaved now from what I've seen on the X55R and X90R. It's not something I find annoying anymore. But, like Rich, it took me a little while to adjust to it after coming from a DLP.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Seegs108  /t/1510508/are-the-joe-kane-samsung...e-picture-in-digital-projectors#post_24180571


The noise is not defeatable. I don't know if you have access to either of the aforementioned models anymore or something like a Sharp XV-Z20000, Marantz VP-11S1, 11S2, 15S1, or even a Samsung SP-A900B, but if you were to do the same on those models you would see an almost perfect noise free image, even on lower APL content. These models in particular are fantastic at low APL dithering, or should I say the lack of it from any normal viewing distance.
I agree with you on that noise, but there is noise besides just noise on static images. One of the issues DLPs of that generation had was exacerbating noise in sources. With a super clean source things would be very clean, but a little bit of noise in the image could be multiplied beyond how it really existed in the source. I know this was an issue at least one manufacturer dealt with, but the control was mostly on TI's side.


I don't recall specific testing against a JVC for this, so not saying they don't have any of that issue, but I know it was an issue with DLP.


Some of the much older JVCs (like the HD2K) were really bad for smear, but I wonder if some of these new models are actually sharpening things beyond what is in the source during movement. Not that I would necesssarily complain, just wondering.


--Darin
 
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