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Discussion Starter #1
I understand the difference between 480, 720, & 1080 lines of resolution. 480 looks bad on a 1080 set. The larger the set, the more pronounced the difference gets. Yet, there are inexpensive upscaling dvd players that make 480 dvds look at least passable on HD sets. The picture can be displayed at 1/2, 1/3 or 1/4 size. I've seen advertisements on HD channels that are being shown at reduced size also. So, are there any HD sets out there that allow one to shrink the picture size to a point where SD looks okay?
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaguy /forum/post/14223385


480 looks bad on a 1080 set.... So, are there any HD sets out there that allow one to shrink the picture size to a point where SD looks okay?

The only thing I have found that works is to sit furthur away trom the TV. It works wonders!!
 

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I've heard tell that HD CRTs are the least unfriendly to low def. I can neither confirm nor deny that from personal experience. It might only be due to the limited size of those sets. But shrinking the picture makes no sense to me.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Shrinking the SD picture works. I've loads of old dvds that do look better on a HD set if they are shrunk, typically I use 1/3 size. 1/4 size yields the best picture of course, albeit smaller. My point is that inexpensive items, built into the set, could make SD a less "unwatchable" experience for many.


It's too bad cheap upscalers only have outputs with no inputs, and I do realize good upscalers cost hundreds and really good ones cost thousands.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaguy /forum/post/14223385


I understand the difference between 480, 720, & 1080 lines of resolution. 480 looks bad on a 1080 set. The larger the set, the more pronounced the difference gets. Yet, there are inexpensive upscaling dvd players that make 480 dvds look at least passable on HD sets. The picture can be displayed at 1/2, 1/3 or 1/4 size. I've seen advertisements on HD channels that are being shown at reduced size also. So, are there any HD sets out there that allow one to shrink the picture size to a point where SD looks okay?

HD TVs of necessity upconvert any input to the native resolution of the display (unless the input equals the display resolution). How well they do it is the question. Any competent review of a particular model (Consumer Reports, C/NET, etc.) includes information if not ratings on this important aspect of the set's performance.


Indeed, some HD TVs are more friendly towards SD than others.


Dana
 

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This is definitely one area where "you get what you pay for" applies. A 1080p plasma or LCD with a good video processor (which costs money) can do great things with SD signals. I have a Pioneer 5010 (Kuro), which is ISF calibrated, and 480i from both DirecTV and OTA look great, as good as our 480-native TVs that we still use. I also have a Toshiba 52hm84 720p DLP rear projection monitor, also calibrated, and it did a very passable job with 480i/480p signals. The Kuro does better, even though it's 1080p vs. 720p. So don't just assume that 1080p automatically looks worse with 480i/p because it's got more pixels to fill. Of course, the sub-$1500 flat-panels out there, while decent, are going to be sacrificing some of the internal hardware to keep the prices low, and a high-quality video processor is one of them (or, at least one that's properly implemented into the specific display).


I feel that, even though the number of HD feeds is growing, reviewers should always assess 480i/p processing capabilities of a display. We've got two young kids, and therefore watch a good bit of SD television, and so this requirement is fairly important to us.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
I still feel that a shrink picture option should be offered to everyone, if the black lines won't cause permanent damage to picture. Broadcasters and advertisers are doing it. If you are not satisfied with SD picture on your HD set OTA, watch one of your locals with a weather subchannel. Make sure the primary channel is showing SD and compare that with the picture on the weather channel. That's about 50% of the screen where the national forecaster is talking and looks o.k. in my opinion.


Shrink would be a cheap add-on which could make future HDTV buyers much happier overall. The kids could sit closer to the set.
 

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My Olevia has a 1:1 aspect option that will accomplish that, but I usually find it's adequate to leave the TV in "Aspect" mode - the TV seems to do OK on upconverting. I usually watch from 5 feet out to 11 feet. The Aspect with a 4:3 picture is about the same size as a 4:3 26 inch TV on 4:3 programming.
 

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It's also worth pointing out that SD DVDs are often significantly higher quality and less compressed than many digital SD broadcasts, and also usually free of any composite artefacts that an SD analogue composite source will have (such as analogue cable or analogue OTA)
 

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While I agree with that sneals, SD DVDs are also often plagued with excessive edge enhancement....and their mastered transfer quality often leaves much to be desired.


However, I havent made the switch to Blu Ray, and am satisfied with DVD quality in general.
 

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Given a half-way decent SD signal, 480i doesn't really look bad on my 64" year-2000 1080i CRT HDTV. For several years initially I used its built-in 480/60i=>480/60p Genesis converter and S-video, viewing at the same 8' distance recommended for true-1080i images to obtain a 33-degree-wide picture width. Also stretched images--most of the time--from 4X3 to 16X9. When cable STBs improved I switched to upconverting 480i to 1080i and using STB component outputs. All-digital cable signals here (NYC's TWC) helps. While HD acquisition seems to automatically imply fixed-pixel displays these days, a visit to the RPTV (or direct-view CRT and CRT front-projector) forums shows lots of members are still viewing SD/HD with CRTs. -- John
 

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My Vizio has better than average SD video processing. One all Mediatek and one Mediatek plus Genesis DCDi.


You get what you pay for....
 

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Yeah, LG guts and Genesis DCDi should make a difference, for sure.


Actually, I spoke too soon. Age of the display and source quality is more important.


Most newer displays have decent scalers in them. Even my absolutely at-the lowest-possible-end-of-the-price-spectrum bedroom Dynex does a bang-up job with SD, provided the source is good.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by deltaguy /forum/post/14228460


I still feel that a shrink picture option should be offered to everyone, if the black lines won't cause permanent damage to picture. Broadcasters and advertisers are doing it.

Uh, no, they're not. The only thing they're doing is pillarboxing: Taking a 4:3 SD picture and adding black bars on the sides to preserve the aspect ratio when it's upconverted to 16:9 HD. If that's what you meant by "shrinking", then yes, almost all 16:9 TVs do have a way of doing that already (and you're misusing the term "shrinking").


Sometimes a letterboxed SD program will be upconverted with pillarboxing, resulting in bars on all four sides. That still doesn't constitute "shrinking".
 

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wmcbrine, FYI....


Some Vizios have a zoom option which allows you to shrink the image. Most Vizios have a 1 to 1 pixel mapping scheme which show 16:9 SD material with black bars all around....like anamorphic SD DVDs.


I get my TV OTA, and I get SD 16:9 ratio stuff broadcast which is shown with pillarboxing all the way around. This isnt "upconverted."
 

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Deltaguy, in answer to your querry...here are some guidelines etc


Smaller is better than bigger.

CRT is better than Plasma and LCD.

Plasma is better than LCD.

720p is better than 1080p.


Good processing helps. With SD DVD players you can do this in the DVD player....but for broadcast you are generally stuck with the TVs internal scaling and processing....unless you spend big bucks for and off board processor...though some decent implementation of good chipsets can be found in A/V Recievers.


The Best SD processing Flat Panels are....


Olevia 747i 47" LCD with Silicon Optix Realta

Vizio VP505 50" Plasma with Silicon Optix Reon
 

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Discussion Starter #19
NBC Weather Plus still constitutes a shrunken picture. I forget the company, but Universal HD featured an ad that was not only pillarboxed during the Olympic Trials this past weekend. The picture occupied a space much smaller than the weather subs picture. I believe it was for insurance. This would make sense as all ads are not created equal.


When I got into this in 2006, I did my homework and wound up with a 19" Samsung LCD and a 42" Panny plasma. Both were rated highly. I must say I don't remember seeing much on SD picture in the reviews. I didn't think of it too much at the time really, but think those considering HD should. I gave HD a no confidence vote just the other day. It was easy. He wants sports in HD. She watches daytime tv and reruns alot. I told her you'll pay more for HD and your shows will look worse. I proved it with the plasma set and the PQ it gives for one of her SD favorites.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
During the 10:00pm news on channel 13 tonight, Kaiser Permanente. I was watching via a Zenith 900 with cropped as the viewing option. Not only did it become pillarboxed, but the top and bottom of the cropped screen became pillarboxed as well. It was the bad boy ad.
 
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