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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Lately, it seems I've been in the minority opinion around here. My infocomm report partially extends this trend at least for the meantime.


I was not disappointed by Infocomm. There was a lot of information to be gathered. This could very possibly be because I'm new the fp hobby as of Oct last year (the day I discovered AVScience).


I was lucky to run into Canuck, a fellow AVS'er. He lead the way to all the attractions and I was smart enough to follow.


On Sony: As everyone knows by now, the 11HT wasn't present. The salesman said they didn't want to kill sales of the 10HT in the meantime, but the 11HT was on schedule for August. My interpretation? The 11HT wasn't ready for prime time so they didn't bring it along. My prediction (based on educated guess only) is at least a couple month delay in the release of the 11HT.


On Stewart: Stewart had a demo running with a split screen between their 1.3 gain material and grayhawk. I've included a picture at my link that I link shows the difference pretty well. I had the opportunity to meet Don Stewart. Great guy, and not just because he injured himself getting me a T-Shirt. I really enjoyed my conversation with Don and he also takes criticism very well.


On JVC: JVC had nothing worth seeing. JUST KIDDING! Everyone has heard about the 225k monster. It is amazing. I've included the best picture I could get because of darkness and movement at my link. At least you might be able to get an idea of contrast. As an aside I also saw the 3 chip dlp units at Digital Systems??? They were terrific as well and it would be a heck of a shootout between these units using the same video content and lighting.


The 150HT was at a disadvantage because it was located in the same room. It just couldn't compare and I hesitate to evaluate it because of this circumstance.


We had an interesting conversation with a sales guy named Jack from JVC. He got really defensive when we started talking about dead pixels and return policies. He said something to the effect of if we were to buy 1000 units then we could talk about a dead pixel free return policy. He also stated that the consumer needs to be more sensitive to the manufacturers issues. Huh?


Luckily Tom Stites came around and bailed out the sales guy. JVC apparently has never refused to take care of a customer who was unhappy about dead pixels. They are sensitive to end users who countlessly complain about unit after unit they receive and I understand that concern.


On Hitachi: I thought the LCOS unit (5500) looked great. Color and contrast were excellent in my opinion. I have three pics at my link. Unfortunately, none of them came out that well. Actually, the first one 'aint bad. At a price point of 9k retail, this is currently the front runner for my next projector. It is planned for an October (yeah, right) release.


On Infocus: Infocus might have been the only company I saw who placed their images under bright lights. The result, of course, was the most washed out images I saw at the show. Dear infocus, please note that the purpose of the show is to make your products look good. Hello?


Still, I got to take a look at the LP530 and what I saw I liked. Even in the horrible lighting conditions, the faroudja chip looks like it's doing a good job. I also thought color was rich although they were running animation which tends to bring out the best in projectors. The LP530 appears to be aggressively lumen rated as I also think the LP350 is.


On NEC: An LT150 with a zoom? You betcha. Someone has been listening at NEC and there was an LT150z on display. The best picture I saw at the entire show was at the NEC show. The NEC 61" plasma was absolutely breathtaking. I couldn't believe the contrast it was so clear and 3d-like. If they can only make this unit about 50" longer in diagonal and for 5k, I think we have something. I'll start holding my breath now.


On Sanyo: I'm the one guy on this forum who is just not excited about the Sanyos. I just find the screen door far too prevalent and distracting. This was true again when I saw the PLV-60 in the Sanyo booth. Interesting to note, when I first saw the projector in the shootout, I didn't think I noticed the screen door as much. We tried to go back and double check the shootout after we viewed the one in the Sanyo booth, but unfortunately they closed it early. We also tried to find out what was driving the Sanyo in the shootout to see if it could be the hardware that made the difference, but no one knew or could tell us how to find out.


I did like the Sanyo EF30. It's 5500 Lumen powerhouse and I could not see the screen door. I took a picture and included it at my link for completeness, but unfortunately it came out blurred because of motion and lightning conditions.


On the video processor shootout: Mostly embarrassingly bad. The one surprise was a company called inline. I thought their processor did a real nice job. We stopped by and spoke with a sales engineer who introduced us to his product line ranging from about 1.8k to 6k. I asked him what he thought about the rock and vigatec and he didn't know who they were.


Picture Link: http://albums.photopoint.com/j/Album...995&a=13283690


--Les

 

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Thank you for a very good report. I liked your pictures and I can see why you are all excited about the JVC $225K machine.


I am wondering if you saw the Toshiba MT7 projector and what your impressions are of the same. I saw it at CES 2001 and thought it was very good. However at the time, I was less keen than I am now on what to look for in a projector. The other ones I would ask your impression about are the Mitsubishi x400 and x390, because I have recently seen them at a nearby dealer. Comparing what I see and think with what you see and think gives me a better idea of what to look for in the future. At least from one reference point.


On your report on the InFocus you say that you liked what you saw. Were you able to determine if the Faroudja was clearing-up jaggies on the image? I saw your pictures of the Hitachi images, the bridge, the rocket launch, and the airplane and I think that I could see jaggies on the diagonal lines. Was that the case?


I thank you for any help you can provide and are providing with your reports.


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cai
 

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Hi Les,


Glad you could see all the fun stuff! I enjoyed it, too. I wish I could have met you while there.


I think that the Hitachi might be a good projector that was just set-up incorrectly. Did you see the aerial footage of the planes on this projector? The whites were definitely hot and blooming on the shots of the clouds. Reds were also a bit blown out, and the whole picture was a quite a bit too "contrasty" for my tastes.


However, these are normally set-up issues, and may not say much about the projector itself (except to say that Hitachi doesn't know how to set it up).


I was not impressed with the Infocus booth at all, and gave them just a quick "walk through", as nothing was ready for a critical evaluation. No good comments. No bad comments, except that they need to work on their show displays.


I did like the Sanyo, however. You are right, the show-stopper on this is the screen door. I don't quite understand why it is WORSE than other LCD projectors, but it clearly is (especially in the side-by-side-by-side shootout).


By the way, did you notice that Sanyo and Sony put the projector and information brochure right at the limit of where you can see the screen door? If you stand behind the information brochure, you usually can't see it. However, take ONE step forward towards the projector and YUCK. Its very apparent.


I noticed this with the Sony 10HT and the Sanyo LCDs. Clever trick!
 

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Les,


I gotta say, the difference between the Greyhawk and the StudioTek 1.3 was much greater to my eyes than what your pictures show. The absolute black level was quite visibly better.


On Infocus, I suppose they might have been trying to show how their projectors perform in ambient light, after all they are a business projector manufacturer at show that doesn't focus on HT. Maybe they'll have a good setup at CEDIA where they should be targeting HT. Not that I don't wish they had a proper setup at Infocomm! http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif


Regards,


Kam Fung
 

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Les:


It was good to meet you. Thanks for the report and pics. I agree with pretty much everything you said. Milori and Stevehifi called the Hitachi "dogcrap". I was surprised because I certainly thought it was by far the best under $10,000.00 projector at the show.


Brian
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Mark, sorry I missed you. I was present at Stewart at noon on Friday, but I guess many had their run of the show the previous two days and had flown out already.


I did see the aeriel footage you're referring to but didn't have the same negative impression. I suppose it's possible someone helped Hitachi out by adjusting the projector between when you viewed it and I did. But who knows.


Cai, the Toshiba looked pretty poor as shown. They were showing it through composite in the Toshiba booth. Nice huh? As mentioned by others, it also didn't look that great at the shootout.


I didn't get a chance to pass through Mitsubishi, but I'm sure others here can fill you in on those projectors.


I think the jaggies are artifacts of the pic scaling by photopoint. If you expand the pics, by clicking on the thumbnail and then clicking on the next pic that shows up, you'll download it at full 2048x1536. The jaggies will mostly disappear.


I didn't see jaggies in the LP530. But the lighting was terrible and the source was animation. I did get the impression that the faroudja chip improved on the already pretty good scaling/deinterlacing of the LP350. But I'd want to take a closer look in much better circumstances. I also don't believe the 2000 lumen rating.


--Les
 

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The Hitachi had no screen door, is speced with a contrast of 500:1, has 1500 lumens and needed a better scaler IMO.


The light control was poor compared to the JVC booth, but list price at about $9000 means that we would see a projector that would be what the G3010z was supposed to be.


The QXGA Cinema was nice but the consensus of everyone I talked to was that the new JVC HT DILAs, although the king of the hill in picture quality, were a bit pricey.


Sanyo also has LCOS in the works, but only had a demo, not a really working model, in their booth.


------------------

Ken Elliott


[This message has been edited by kelliot (edited 06-17-2001).]
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by Knuck:
Milori and Stevehifi called the Hitachi "dogcrap". I was surprised because I certainly thought it was by far the best under $10,000.00 projector at the show.

Brian
What we saw definitely was not "dogcrap". However, I believe them when they describe their impression of what they saw.


Who knows what happened between when they saw it and we did. However, I anxiously await the release of this projector so I can test it more closely.


--Les
 

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Damn, I missed the supermodels!


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Ken Elliott
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by milori:
Was there another one being demonstrated, or are we talking about the same projector?
We're talkin about the same one. Hard to believe, huh, since we have two such directly opposing opinions.


I missed the supermodels too. Though, I did see Ken Elliott and he comes really close...


--Les

 

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You need to be careful when you say 'supermodels' because everything is relative at such a testosterone-laden show. It is always amazing to me just how male-dominated our industry is, but we are reminded of the fact every show. Anyone stay at the Aladdin? What a place! I think I'll go back just to get free drinks from cocktail waitresses dressed like I dream of Genie!

Anyway, to clarify my position on the Hitachi...I saw the projector on Wednesday and was really prepared for a great picture. However, Hitachi must not want to sell many of the projectors based on their setup as they were demonstrating static computer graphics on about a 70" screen. Worse than that, the image did not even fill the screen properly. That is a pet pieve of mine and it was sure not helpful that Hitachi chose to display the projector in a closet.

I did not notice any pixelization, but ANY projector shown on such a small screen viewed from 10+ feet away would not show pixelization at all.

Contrast Hitachi's presentation to JVC's, where all four of their upper-end projectors were shown inside a completely sealed blacked-out enclosure with suitable source material and plenty of room to view and critically assess the quality of the picture.

Who knows? I could be completely wrong about the Hitachi, but they would have to part the seas to overcome my initial objection to their presentation. Not overall very impressive, and can you really expect great service and support from a company unable or unwilling to set up one of their new projectors with any semblance of professionalism?

Steve

Synergy MultiMedia, LLC

Atlanta, GA
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
On Friday, they were showing the static images on the Hitachi also. But we flipped around the input signal and found the HD feed.


I agree. I would have liked to have seen it on a bigger screen.


--Les
 

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Just to make sure that we are on the same page here...


The projector I looked at was almost tucked into a closet, under the "stage" where they had the "supermodels" walking around with projectors. It was a little hard to find back there.


Was there another one being demonstrated, or are we talking about the same projector?
 

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But JVC did not put much emphasis on the ex-G3010z, aka DS1 which is closer to the price range of the Hitachi.


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Ken Elliott
 

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In defense (defence for Canuck and KBK)of Hitachi and others, including us, that showed some of our projectors in high light environment, this is a general AV show, not HT. Most of the projectors sold by the dealers at this show will be sold for either portable or conference room applications that will never see a low light level.


When we show our high contrast models in a dark room, the first thing most of the AV sales people will ask is "how does it look with the lights up?"...at which point I usually say "who cares?" Same is true for the staging and rental industry where high light output is more important than contrast ratio.


In general, other than Sony, most of the mfrs from the AV market don't have a clue yet about the HT market, like us they are taking a look at it to get a feel for what the potential really is and where their products might fit without to much development cost.



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Tom Stites

Director, Business Development

Digital Systems Division

JVC Professional Products

"My opinions do not necessarily reflect..."
 

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Les,


By the way, the "Sales guy, Jack" is my boss...anyway, the point he was trying to make is that it really is impractical to make any large quantity of projectors with a guarantee of no dead pixels at a reasonable cost.


We do provide some for simulation applications and those cost quite a bit more due to the screening process that must be performed.


As I have mentioned in another post, we do use a higher standard for the 150HT but we do not guarantee that there will be NONE. I know that is not what many people want to hear but that's why we have 60 mfr's selling projectors... maybe someone will offer such a projector at less than $30,000!



------------------

Tom Stites

Director, Business Development

Digital Systems Division

JVC Professional Products

"My opinions do not necessarily reflect..."
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Quote:
Originally posted by tstites:
I know that is not what many people want to hear but that's why we have 60 mfr's selling projectors... maybe someone will offer such a projector at less than $30,000!
My apologies to your boss for underestimating his title (aka: Jack, the sales guy). I really do appreciate the time he spent with us.


I can understand your frustration in trying to manufacture a perfect panel. It showed on your expressions that you've had this discussion many times.


Unfortunately, you're in a real conundrum. Fact of the matter is John Q. Public is not going to accept dead pixels and I think you know this. This isn't really something you have to do a marketing research study to find out. This is why while the official stance is "dead pixels are part of the product," the unofficial stance is you take care of your customers who are dissatified.


But it was still interesting to hear Jack say that consumers need to be more sensitive to the challenges manufacturers have in producing these products. Ummm..okay.


Best of luck finding that under 30,000 perfect panel. I have confidence in you. You'll find it $$$$$.


--Les

 

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I agree. Nobody in the presentation business is going to notice a few dead pixels.

But when you sit 2 to 4 hours a day in front of your own projector watching movies, there is no way you can tolerate the same dead pixels for the years your projector is going to last. Paying a premium for that would be certainly acceptable though.


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Robert
 

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Quote:
Originally posted by arrow:
Unfortunately, you're in a real conundrum. Fact of the matter is John Q. Public is not going to accept dead pixels and I think you know this
I'm not sure that I agree with this. I recently saw a 10HT with a stuck on green pixel. I never noticed it after watching for 1/2 hour, a variety of materials. In fact, the *owner* didn't notice either, even though he spent a ton of time up at the screen doing callibrations, until after a few weeks, when he was at the screen, he finally noticed it. When it was pointed out to me, I *still* couldn't see it from a normal seating position.


Of course, I don't understand why someone like JVC doesn't offer multiple prices for # of stuck pixels. In other words, let's say that only 50% of the projectors are pixel-perfect (is it really that low?). You could charge a 25% premium for perfect pixels, and a 25% discount for 1 bad pixel. Personally, I'd be happy to get a discount for a minor imperfection, and I think a lot of people here would be willing to pay a small premium for guaranteed perfection.


Mike

 

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Arrow,


I agree completely with you on most of things you mentioned and disagree on the others.


I too thought inline was the best in the scaler shoot-out. However it appeared they were all being shown on projection CRT's and it could have been differences in the CRT's. But the Inline was great.


Sony, agree.


Stewart, agree. The blackhawk was also the best rear projection surface at the show.


Sanyo, I think Sanyo PLV60 is typical of other LCD units. I was very disappointed that the 21n and 18n weren't at the show. Is 3 months old too old in this business? I think they would have done very well in the shoot-out. They're newer brothers were good but not show stoppers.


Nec, I didn't see the projector you were refering to unfortuneately. I did see the 61" plasma but I was far from impressed. In the low light areas there was plenty dither-like posterization. It wasn't easy to see because most of the images they showed were very bright but it was definitely there. The Panasonics showed it to a much lesser exstent.


Hitachi, I had the exact same comments that Mark had and I visited the "tunnel" the had displayed in once on Thursday and then again on Friday. It definitely had some over saturation problems that Mark mentioned. I also think it was being shown on a high gain screen as it appeared to have some hotspotting. I don't think the guy is quite ready for primetime but I think it is another successful display of LCOS potential.


Infocus, the LP530 did look good. I don't know if I will buy a clearsectioned projector for HT but I would consider it as having good business potential.


I will do a post with my impressions latter on tonight. Feel free to comment there if you want.


-Mr. Wigggles


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The Mothership is now boarding.
 
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