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Discussion Starter #61 (Edited)
That reminds me of what happened when I went out into the parking lot after getting my HA's.

My universe expanded - there was a huge feeling of space from hearing hearing distant echos of street sounds, leaves rustling in trees, etc.

I'm very interested to hear your impressions of the Resounds and how much difference the extra 1.5 kHz makes (if any, it's just a fraction of an octave).

Does your audiologist carry Bernafon?
She mentioned that Bernafon were the first to go to 8 kHz, but that Phonek and Resound and others go to 8 kHz now. She feels given my concerns that Phonak and ReSound are the best bets for me to demo and make a choice. We are taking stuff 1 step at a time. However, she emphasized that she really wants me to demo ReSound and that they may be even better, but we didn't get into specifics. Only after did I start looking up ReSound to find out they state their new models have frequency response extended to 9.5 kHz with dynamic range of 116 dB! I am so happy with the Phonak right now - SO HAPPY - but also excited to try out ReSound, as the technology described at their website "sounds" like they will work for me as an audiophile even better IF the technology translates to my "subjective" better sonics. We will "see"!
 

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Discussion Starter #62
Now that my Audiologist last Tuesday "opened up" the frequency correction of my demo Phonaks to fully correct my mild to moderate hearing loss (as opposed to a beginner's milder correction before), all I can say is - WOW!

First little things. Watched a tv show and sound seemed perhaps more open and better than before (comparing to the beginners correction before). I say perhaps. What I really noticed is I turned on my Sony VW5000 projector and heard a high pitched whirring I had never heard before. I thought gee I'm hearing too much gonna have to have the Audiologist turn it down. Fortunately, after a minute or two the high pitch went away, guess it was on startup for a bit. Wore these the past two days and tonight time for some music ! And here's the WOW! This full range frequency correction heck I dig it totally! Music is jumping at me with everything, its like I had an ear/brain transplant! HA! Two channel improvement is marked vs the beginners correction, which was a nice improvement vs no hearing aids.

Tonight listening to music, its like I'm in a whole new world!

When I next see my Audiologist she wants me to demo Resound. She is very interested in my feedback and personal perception as an audiophile. I have started to read up on Resound and interesting including 116 dB dynamics and frequncy correction to 9.5 kHZ.
https://www.resoundpro.com/en-US/hearing-aids/linx-quattro/sound-quality

Though I am happy as a camper right now! Even though the Phonaks only have frequency extension to 8 kHz!
In the past days I have listened to quite a bit of two channel in my theatre room. I must reiterate the "WOW". I find myself listening quieter dBwise than ever yet hearing so much more throughout the audio spectrum particularly the highs. The better the audio quality the source material even the better the improvement! And last night I went to a concert at the Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum (I am addicted), Devon Allman Project with special guest Duane Betts (yes, sons of The Allman Brothers) who were terrific, playing that southern rock etc, but adding in also some soul/R&B:


Poppin' out and back in my hearing aids at times throughout the concert, I continue to be astonished at the improvements sonically. I was warned this band would play loud (often 90 - 100 dB) and to put in earplugs (he was kidding) - but I found the sound level wonderful and pleasing, and
despite with the hearing aids I was able to hear so much more, it didn't sound louder than without the hearing aids, simply sounded much more pleasing (though I admit pre the hearing aids I would have thought this was so pleasing, too - but now I have a much better point of reference).

Keep in mind although these hearing aids can "restore"? frequency response to 8k, one also loses dynamic range of hearing over the years, too. My understanding is this cannot be restored. So I still do not have the hearing I had when I was 20 years old, now at 65! But its so much better.

I have scheduled more live concerts this next week, and then when my Audiologist has me give back these Phonaks and demo ReSound hearing aids I have several more live concerts in the 10 days thereafter.

I wonder if the reason so many audiophiles love turntables is because the reduced dynamic range of LPs better matches the reduced dynamic range of their hearing as they get older??? HA!
 

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Discussion Starter #63
In the past days I have listened to quite a bit of two channel in my theatre room. I must reiterate the "WOW". I find myself listening quieter dBwise than ever yet hearing so much more throughout the audio spectrum particularly the highs. The better the audio quality the source material even the better the improvement! And last night I went to a concert at the Phoenix Musical Instrument Museum (I am addicted), Devon Allman Project with special guest Duane Betts (yes, sons of The Allman Brothers) who were terrific, playing that southern rock etc, but adding in also some soul/R&B:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsI6N4HUWR4
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7H6RNcnJffc

Poppin' out and back in my hearing aids at times throughout the concert, I continue to be astonished at the improvements sonically. I was warned this band would play loud (often 90 - 100 dB) and to put in earplugs (he was kidding) - but I found the sound level wonderful and pleasing, and
despite with the hearing aids I was able to hear so much more, it didn't sound louder than without the hearing aids, simply sounded much more pleasing (though I admit pre the hearing aids I would have thought this was so pleasing, too - but now I have a much better point of reference).

Keep in mind although these hearing aids can "restore"? frequency response to 8k, one also loses dynamic range of hearing over the years, too. My understanding is this cannot be restored. So I still do not have the hearing I had when I was 20 years old, now at 65! But its so much better.

I have scheduled more live concerts this next week, and then when my Audiologist has me give back these Phonaks and demo ReSound hearing aids I have several more live concerts in the 10 days thereafter.

I wonder if the reason so many audiophiles love turntables is because the reduced dynamic range of LPs better matches the reduced dynamic range of their hearing as they get older??? HA!
My above impressions continue to hold true! And music in my audio room is simply a joy listening lower volume wise on my Theta Casablanca IVA SSP yet being more engaged musically, not just highs, but across the audio spectrum up to the 8k limits of the Phonak hearing aids. Looking forward to demo the ReSound starting this Wed.
 

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Great thread, Steve--thanks for sharing your experiences with the rest of us. I am seventy, and I have a notch in my hearing between 4 and 6 kHz in my left ear, to the point where the difference in my two ears is noticeable. I can her up to a little past 8k, but I'm sure there's some rollof there, too.

Hopefully I'll be able to find as good an audiologist in the Albuquerque area as you did.

My one concern is, is there any danger that boosting the frequencies where we're deficient will make the problem worse in the long run?

Also, do your HAs introduce any distortion?

I've spent a lot of money on my current system, and I'd like to be able to get the most out of it.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
My one concern is, is there any danger that boosting the frequencies where we're deficient will make the problem worse in the long run?
Not of which I am aware and I've seen nothing in my online sleuthing to indicate this. I'll put this on my list of questions to ask my Audiologist though.

Also, do your HAs introduce any distortion?
This is a totally legit question. Online stuff like 5 - 10 years ago indicated some audiophiles had big issues with this - too much compression as hearing aids were primarily designed to speech not music. But in the past few years this has been changing - as with the Phonak HAs I am having no compression or distortion issues that I can tell at all. Its amazing!
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Last night I watched the 4k blu ray disc of "Crazy Rich Asians". What a surprise. Beatiful video taking place over in China! A reference picture! And the sound - a very wonderful and very musical soundtrack. With the Phonak hearing aids, the improvement in sonics was remarkable. Music was simply a good amount more - musical.
Soundstage for music was improved and wrapped around me even more than without the HAs. And all across the audio spectrum the musical soundtrack was more full bodied and real as well as the more natural and expanded soundstage.
 

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My one concern is, is there any danger that boosting the frequencies where we're deficient will make the problem worse in the long run?

I was wondering about that too; maybe boosting the treble sufficiently to restore it to previous perceived SPL would further damage the little hairs.

Or, perhaps, and hopefully, it's the same hairs that are responsible for both mid and high freq hearing and that it's excessive mid freq SPL that does the damage.

Steve, could you ask your audiologist about this?
 

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Discussion Starter #68
I was wondering about that too; maybe boosting the treble sufficiently to restore it to previous perceived SPL would further damage the little hairs.

Or, perhaps, and hopefully, it's the same hairs that are responsible for both mid and high freq hearing and that it's excessive mid freq SPL that does the damage.

Steve, could you ask your audiologist about this?
I think we’re splitting hairs (Ha!) as my hearing is already damaged and hearing aids only improve my hearing. I think the proper answer is that improper use/adjustment of hearing aids could over time make hearing worse just as too loud of noise can make hearing worse! But I’ll ask. This is a good reason to find and use a top notch Audiologist in the first place. To avoid improper hearing aid/device settings that could perhaps cause more issues with your hearing!

Same thing re ear cleaning. Get this done periodically by a good ENT doctor. I know of a person who had ears cleaned by even a family doctor using some instrument and thereafter suffered major hearing loss.
 

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Discussion Starter #69

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"Under most circumstances, the answer to “Will my hearing aids cause hearing loss?” is no. But hearing devices can damage your hearing further if not programmed correctly. Because hearing loss can caused by prolonged exposure to loud noises (80 decibels is typically considered the top threshold), programming your hearing aids properly is critical. If your hearing aids are programmed to make noises louder than needed, that programming could cause additional hearing damage. However, if hearing aids are programmed correctly, fit well, and filter sounds properly, then they should not damage your hearing."


Taken at face value, the above means that damage will occur if it takes >80dB for the HA to compensate for high freq loss.

But it doesn't specifically address my question about the frequency dependency of the loss.
 

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Discussion Starter #72 (Edited)
Got demo ReSound hearing aids mid afternoon today. Came home and listened to music not impressed. Didn't seem to do much compared to no hearing aids and I felt dynamics perhaps limited a bit. I was prepared to bring them back tomorrow very disappointed and get the Phonaks I had demod back whichwere excellent! I went out for dinner using the hearing aids and all I started getting was a minor headache. I came back home quite dejected. However, I decided to try again but expecting to be disappointed listening to 2 channel music. Surprising after a bit the sound has opened up and I'm srarting to really like ths music! Popping the hearing aids in and out I am now hearing a marked sonic improvement vs no HAs! Lyn Stanley's new album "London Calling: A Tribute to Julie London" is hitting me off the charts now more than I recall yesterday listening with the Phonaks! Same for another new album "Carpenters with The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra"! Now I'm listening to "Tettero Plays Eddie Harris and Les McCann". Whereas earlier today this not much different than without my new demo ReSound HAs. now its no doubt as nice, full bodied, better across the board especially highs and as good if not better than I remember with the Phonaks.

I had thought that since I had the Phonaks for more than 2 weeks at full frequency correction that my ear/brain would be used to these demo ReSound hearing aids right away. But apparently it took some hours of using the ReSound hearing aids for my ear/brain to start really adapting!
It "looked" like this was gonna be a good example that what you expect, better sonics as ReSound is speced to 9.5 kHz (8 kHz for Phonak) and 116 dB, was simply not the case, thus the folks who argue you must "blind test" don't know jack S--T! But I am glad this is gonna be a contest now!

And yea I was wrong re pricing. We had discussed price per each single hearing aid before. So yea for latest current model more suited for the crazy audiophile it can be a lot more than going to Costco and getting a more basic model without the auto music mode and what I consider more audiophile features. Up to each consumer to determine what they can and are willing to spend I guess - nothing new in high end audio. But I will say this. My Audiologist only can bill Medicare for the first hearing test visit - not after. And she is willing to continue following up with me, get me fitted in the best hearing aids, and follow up at no extra cost for a good year or more. That is worth something - to me!
 

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Got demo ReSound hearing aids mid afternoon today. Came home and listened to music not impressed. Didn't seem to do much compared to no hearing aids and I felt dynamics perhaps limited a bit. I was prepared to bring them back tomorrow very disappointed and get the Phonaks I had demod back whichwere excellent! I went out for dinner using the hearing aids and all I started getting was a minor headache. I came back home quite dejected. However, I decided to try again but expecting to be disappointed listening to 2 channel music. Surprising after a bit the sound has opened up and I'm srarting to really like ths music! Popping the hearing aids in and out I am now hearing a marked sonic improvement vs no HAs! Lyn Stanley's new album "London Calling: A Tribute to Julie London" is hitting me off the charts now more than I recall yesterday listening with the Phonaks! Same for another new album "Carpenters with The Royal Philharmonic Orchestra"! I had thought that since I had the Phonaks for more than 2 weeks at full frequency correction that my ear/brain would be used to these demo ReSound hearing aids right away. But apparently it took some hours of using the ReSound hearing aids for my ear/brain to start really adapting!
Is there any way you can have them both at once so you can A/B them?
 

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Discussion Starter #74
Is there any way you can have them both at once so you can A/B them?
I'm not gonna even ask.

Plus it takes ear/brain time to adapt to different brand/somewhat different technology hearing aids. Switching between brands on the fly will have its own issues!
 

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Discussion Starter #75

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I have moderate hearing loss and got a Starkey Completely in the ear IIc. Certainly helped with my general hearing but audiologists have the market cornered and they control the price. On sale with a supposed 10% discount it cost me over $7000 for the pair. They probably pay a tenth of that. There's a huge mark-up the same with dentists and crowns and even Lasik surgery. The ophthalmologist here does them like an assembly line taking around 5 minutes each doing over 20 in the morning alone. Making well over a grand a pop. Absolutely absurd. He made so much money he bought several floors of a large medical office and even has a large private jet. I don't mind paying but I hate getting ripped off. Getting back to my Starkey, it was supposed to be great with music but I disagree. I have perfect pitch and can hear some of the mid-range notes (just a few) slightly off key and even distorted at times. I've been listening to classical music my entire life and without the aids sometimes my brain puts the note I should hear that I'm not cooking me into thinking I've heard it if that makes sense. For example listening to the third movement of Chopin's 1st piano concerto some of the piano runs and the high notes I don't hear if I concentrate if not my brain put them in and I think I heard them. My wife didn't want me to get the behind the ear models which certainly would have been better because she didn't want me to look like an 'old man'. I did go to Costco but I wanted the smallest and best available which they didn't have. Interesting tomlearn they use older models. Personally I think using 2015 technology is old. Hearing aids should be improving like Moore's law every 18 months.
 

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Discussion Starter #78
Interesting discussions about 16 bit vs 24 bit DACs (analog to digital converters) for hearing aids:

http://www.hearingreview.com/2015/07/back-basics-heads-finally-water-hearing-aid-processing-moves-new-era/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4040855/

16 bit DACs are only capable of 95-96 dB on intake, whereas 24 bit DACs may be capable of up to 119 dB on intake. Therefore as ReSound states that their top new line (out a few months now) has 116 dB dynamic range these DACs must be 24 bit.

When I say on input, this is the original dynamic range of sound that the DAC can capture and convert. Lets say you are at a concert, and some of the sonics extend up to dynamic quick peaks of 105 dB. With a 16 bit DAC, everything above 95-96 dB is truncated and this leads to distortion in the analog digital conversion.

Even if a DAC is 24 bit, this doesn't guarentee it sound better on music and live concerts than a 16 bit one. That depends on the programming and software. Thus yesterday, when I first got the ReSound to demo, they sounded "horrible" in that hardly any different than no hearing aids at all and I thought I could actually ascertain some compression at times. But after wearing them some hours, they opened up and sound great!

In coming years as technology improves and computer/DAC chips become more powerful, no doubt more and more hearing aids at least at the top levels will move to 24 bit, to the extent they haven't done so already. My online sleuthing indicates hearing aid companies DO NOT advertise specs of whether their DACs are 16, 20 or 24 bit. Maybe in the future this will be more of a marketing point?
 

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Interesting discussions about 16 bit vs 24 bit DACs (analog to digital converters) for hearing aids:

http://www.hearingreview.com/2015/07/back-basics-heads-finally-water-hearing-aid-processing-moves-new-era/

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4040855/

16 bit DACs are only capable of 95-96 dB on intake, whereas 24 bit DACs may be capable of up to 119 dB on intake. Therefore as ReSound states that their top new line (out a few months now) has 116 dB dynamic range these DACs must be 24 bit.

When I say on input, this is the original dynamic range of sound that the DAC can capture and convert. Lets say you are at a concert, and some of the sonics extend up to dynamic quick peaks of 105 dB. With a 16 bit DAC, everything above 95-96 dB is truncated and this leads to distortion in the analog digital conversion.

Even if a DAC is 24 bit, this doesn't guarentee it sound better on music and live concerts than a 16 bit one. That depends on the programming and software. Thus yesterday, when I first got the ReSound to demo, they sounded "horrible" in that hardly any different than no hearing aids at all and I thought I could actually ascertain some compression at times. But after wearing them some hours, they opened up and sound great!

In coming years as technology improves and computer/DAC chips become more powerful, no doubt more and more hearing aids at least at the top levels will move to 24 bit, to the extent they haven't done so already. My online sleuthing indicates hearing aid companies DO NOT advertise specs of whether their DACs are 16, 20 or 24 bit. Maybe in the future this will be more of a marketing point?
Minor point: They're referring to A/Ds, not D/As, in the link you posted. :cool:
 

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