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AT screen vs Regular

4274 Views 14 Replies 9 Participants Last post by JohnnyWilkinson, Oct 19, 2019

GasPasserDoc

Discussion Starter · Oct 14, 2019

So I currently have dedicated home theater room with zero ambient light. The equipment is also over 20 years old so I have an older Epson (no HDMI) projector that sits in back of room. like a real theater and a 135 inch or so diagonal 4:3 AT screen. I have a dolby digital Receiver. I also have 4 polk audio speakers - 2 in middle and 2 in rears. I have presumably 2 or 3 unknown speakers behind the screen which can’t be accessed without bringing the screen down. I am looking to upgrade.

I have one installer telling me to keep all speakers and changing screen to a Screen Innovations 130 inch AT screen ($4200). Positives are that it keeps the clean look of the theater and the sound coming from behind the screen.

Another installer has suggested switching to a non AT screen but changing the speakers . Golden ear wall mounted speakers and one golden ear center channel. Positives are presumable no light reflection /moire effect.

Thoughts ?

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rekbones

· #2 · Oct 15, 2019 (Edited)

Looks like the whole theater needs an upgrade. Current Audio needs up to 11 surround speakers + Subs. I would put my money in a new projector first. As for At screen its faults are some degradation in PQ (depending on screen size and viewing distance) and attenuated high frequency. The plusses are sound comes directly from screen and cleaner look. You need to decide what you want. Minimum audio is 3 speakers on the front wall and two to the side/rear for 5.1, preferably with a added sub. Spending $4K plus on a screen is nuts for a 20 year old projector. In a nice dedicated room like that a 16:9 $300 non AT screen or $600 AT screen will look great with a modern projector.

EDIT: For $4k or less you could upgrade projector to something like a Epson 5050, new 16:9 screen and maybe even an HDMI modern AVR with 7.1 audio. With the tilt on that projector you are using a large amount of keystone correction farther degrading the picture from what ever its native is.

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GasPasserDoc

Discussion Starter · #3 · Oct 15, 2019

Thanks for the reply! My goal was to update the whole theater . The question isn’t to upgrade one or the other other. I want to upgrade everything but not sure whether to do upgrade to a AT screen or a regular one because I’m getting conflicting advice. Also I’m not sure what you mean by keystone and how that should affect my decision.

bud16415

· #4 · Oct 15, 2019

GasPasserDoc said:
Thanks for the reply! My goal was to update the whole theater . The question isn’t to upgrade one or the other other. I want to upgrade everything but not sure whether to do upgrade to a AT screen or a regular one because I’m getting conflicting advice. Also I’m not sure what you mean by keystone and how that should affect my decision.

IMO both screen types can produce wonderful results and it comes down to a few things. Cost is one and then if you are bothered by having the speakers show. Then there is the audio coming from the screen or closer to where the sound should come from. Especially the center channel that has to be dropped below and angled up or above and angled down with a non AT screen. honestly some people are very sensitive to sound direction and others are not.

Here is what I think will be your main driver in remaking your theater. 20 years ago 4:3 projectors were fairly normal and DVD and VHS tape had 4:3 framing as did the TVs of the day. The resolution was very poor by today’s standards and peoples seating distance reflected that. it seemed huge because we were used to 25”-32” TV sets. Today’s equipment is so much better full on theater visual immersion is what most people desire. Your room does not look super wide and if we knew your first and second row seating distance along with the dimensions of your screen wall and even the throw distance of your projector and how high the porthole is better recommendations could be made.

My guess is your going to want a screen that almost spans the room and that will then dictate an AT screen.

As a side note if you look at how the old projector was placed on an angle that is a sign of a projector that didn’t have vertical lens shift and wasn’t mounted upside down as it should have been. When you do that the image projected will be a trapezoid or keystone shape. Most projectors have a way of fixing that called keystone correction. It is not a good feature to use as it does scaling of the image and looses resolution in the process. For that reason most of us here avoid using it, and we rather select projectors that have the lens shift feature or we carefully place them so the image comes out a rectangle.

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rekbones

· #5 · Oct 15, 2019

GasPasserDoc said:
Thanks for the reply! My goal was to update the whole theater . The question isn’t to upgrade one or the other other. I want to upgrade everything but not sure whether to do upgrade to a AT screen or a regular one because I’m getting conflicting advice. Also I’m not sure what you mean by keystone and how that should affect my decision.

Not put down professionals but many will recommend what will make them the most profit. Not knowing the exact dimensions of your room it is had to guess but looks like an AT screen is the way to go. Unless your sitting close enough to see the weave/perforations the cleaner look is more the stile of the room. If money is no object their are some higher end screens but in a dedicated room like that the difference between them is minimal. Ask a lot of questions in the different sections here for each component upgrade to get good advice as none of us will make a profit off of our free advice.

sirjaymz

· #6 · Oct 15, 2019 (Edited)

First and foremost - Welcome to the forum @GasPasserDoc . I can only imagine where this name came from.

Normally i don't respond to low posters, but I had to in this case.

20 year old dedicated home theater re-vamp is an exciting project. No small feat to update it to current 'standards'. Can be expensive, however, the first thing I would recommend, is a drawing of the room, with measurements. As others have asked, dimensions of the room, the space currently behind the screen, current speakers, etc.

Never go into a project without a plan. It will help allot to get thing rolling with some of the very smart people on this forum.

Sound Control Strategy - Are you re-doing the walls, tearing down that is, adding DD+GG, clips+Channel?, sound proofing, acoustic treatments,
Are you just wanting to change the gear and leave the room the way it is? Bass traps in the corners?
I take it , you are going to remove the mirror's leaning up against the walls, and such.

and remove the popcorn machine from the front of the room.... could get in the way of the new screen..

You have to decide the content you like to watch 1.78 (16x9), such as HD Tv, sports, news, etc, now days..
or are you higher percentage into movies that would potentially drive you to a 2.35/2.39/2.40 cinescope screen.

Since you have an AT screen already, I would continue that route. continue to utilize the space behind the screen for addtional treatments, such as bass traps in the corners, and putting some linacoustic behind the screen on the front wall.

Looking at the speaker placements, those are WAYYY to high for standard base layer 5.1/7.1 speaker placements.
Please reference the Dolby specifications for proper height and angle placements.

Forewarning on new hardware.. the question you have to ask yourself, 'How far down the rabbit hole do you want to go?"
Set a budget, and drive towards that.. it is very very easy to change to different hardware at an expense, and sacrifice the overall solution.

Have a clear and concise idea on what you would like to fund initially to get to your minds eye vision for the room.

This can be a very expensive hobby.
Are you DIY'ing, or are you planning on hiring out the work?, or planning on a mix?

DO NOT BUY anything until you have a pretty good plan.
Lot's of people on the forum here to get you pointed in the right direction.

EDIT : If I were you, I'd start a thread in the 'Dedicated Theater Design & Construction' forum and solicit for information there.

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DigsMovies

· #7 · Oct 15, 2019

GasPasserDoc said:
I want to upgrade everything but not sure whether to do upgrade to a AT screen or a regular one because I’m getting conflicting advice.

I use an AT screen. It's one of the single best decisions I made in my theater. I will never go back. I'm building another house now, and an AT screen will be a must. Get that center channel speaker (if not all 3 LCR) behind the screen where it belongs.

I also recommend a widescreen/scope aspect ratio if the space allows.

GasPasserDoc

Discussion Starter · #8 · Oct 16, 2019

Thanks for the interest and the advice. I will go ahead and post there as well. Since I have this post open as well. Here is a hand sketch of the dimensions.

So i have a 252 inch by 168 inch dedicated Home theater room. The setup is unusual as the screen has been built behind a border of wall so the actual screen is wider than what you can actually see, which is 110 inches wide. It is a perforated screen that has these hooks attached to a steel frame. I have no clue what brand it is. I have a this weird corner design on each side of the screen - like 4 corners back to back. I have zero access to the rear of the screen without taking the screen down. I have to guess there is about 2-4 feet behind the screen. Unknown speakers behind the screen either 2 or 3, most likely Polk Audio as the other speakers are that brand. There are 3 levels of floors. One is immediately in front of the screen and the the other 2 rows are elevated where the reclining chairs are. There are 2 speakers in middle on either side which are like a triangle shape and can produce sound on the 2 sides facing away from the wall. Two speakers located in the rear as well as a Klitsch Subwoofer in the rear. There is a Sanyo projector from a rear window. I have a Onkyo Dolby digital AV receiver.

My goals are to upgrade the system as to modernize it. I want to upgrade the screen, upgrade the projector and AV receiver, upgrade the speakers in the front for sure and probably add 2 atmos speakers in the front. I dont want to tear down any walls like that corner thing thats there, which will eat up some of the budget. I am not a DIY so I need a professional help. I would primarily watch movies , but would like to watch sports and gaming as well when the kids get a bit older.

So far I was I was adviced by various vendors these recomendations

Option 1: Screen Innovations 126" AT screen ($$$)
keep the speakers, Sony projector either the 1080p or 4K (pending budget) and Integra AV receiver
Option 2: Dragonfly 120" Regular Screen (either ALR or matte white depending on what I want)
Either Golden Ear Speakers for the fronts, center and atmos speakers, Integra AV, Sony projector

My audiophile friend thinks I shouldnt do the AT screen because youre paying more for less. I am confused!

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GasPasserDoc

Discussion Starter · #9 · Oct 16, 2019

Here is the sketch

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rekbones

· #10 · Oct 16, 2019

GasPasserDoc said:
My audiophile friend thinks I shouldnt do the AT screen because youre paying more for less. I am confused!

An audiophile isn't willing to compromise the high frequency and possible imaging loss from an AT screen. Most say this can be compensated for by EQ but it just isn't the same to a perfectionist. The same goes for a videophile as they aren't willing to sacrifice the slight light loss/degradation from an AT screen. The Movie buff wants the audio to come from the center of the screen plus it's a cleaner look and add the fact it cost more (A lot more for high end screens). You need to decide what category you fall into.

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Craig Peer

· #11 · Oct 17, 2019

GasPasserDoc said:
Thanks for the interest and the advice. I will go ahead and post there as well. Since I have this post open as well. Here is a hand sketch of the dimensions.

So i have a 252 inch by 168 inch dedicated Home theater room. The setup is unusual as the screen has been built behind a border of wall so the actual screen is wider than what you can actually see, which is 110 inches wide. It is a perforated screen that has these hooks attached to a steel frame. I have no clue what brand it is. I have a this weird corner design on each side of the screen - like 4 corners back to back. I have zero access to the rear of the screen without taking the screen down. I have to guess there is about 2-4 feet behind the screen. Unknown speakers behind the screen either 2 or 3, most likely Polk Audio as the other speakers are that brand. There are 3 levels of floors. One is immediately in front of the screen and the the other 2 rows are elevated where the reclining chairs are. There are 2 speakers in middle on either side which are like a triangle shape and can produce sound on the 2 sides facing away from the wall. Two speakers located in the rear as well as a Klitsch Subwoofer in the rear. There is a Sanyo projector from a rear window. I have a Onkyo Dolby digital AV receiver.

My goals are to upgrade the system as to modernize it. I want to upgrade the screen, upgrade the projector and AV receiver, upgrade the speakers in the front for sure and probably add 2 atmos speakers in the front. I dont want to tear down any walls like that corner thing thats there, which will eat up some of the budget. I am not a DIY so I need a professional help. I would primarily watch movies , but would like to watch sports and gaming as well when the kids get a bit older.

So far I was I was adviced by various vendors these recomendations

Option 1: Screen Innovations 126" AT screen ($$$)
keep the speakers, Sony projector either the 1080p or 4K (pending budget) and Integra AV receiver
Option 2: Dragonfly 120" Regular Screen (either ALR or matte white depending on what I want)
Either Golden Ear Speakers for the fronts, center and atmos speakers, Integra AV, Sony projector

My audiophile friend thinks I shouldnt do the AT screen because youre paying more for less. I am confused!

If it were me I'd get a new AT screen, and a 4K projector. Screen Innovations makes good screens, but they wouldn't be my go to for AT screens. Either Seymour or Dreamscreen would be my go to. And a Sony or JVC 4K projector. I like your projector room - I have a similar arrangement.

And if you like your current speakers, and just augment them for a new surround system with either a Denon or Marantz receiver.

AV_Integrated

· #12 · Oct 18, 2019

If you can't go any wider at the front of the room, then getting a new screen, if your current screen is in good shape is pointless.

You can mask the current screen down to 16:9 aspect ratio and get a new projector and call it done. No new speakers, no new screen.

The ONLY reason to get a new screen would be if you intend to get rid of the art at the front of the room and move to a proper 16:9 setup. Movies or not, your room has plenty of height for a 16:9 screen and not enough width for a full on 2.35 setup, so stick with 16:9.

The initial installation, if done 20 years ago, completely failed to account for 16:9 which already existed and was clearly the future of home theater. A shame if that was the case. That said, I dealt with many 4:3 setups from about 25 years ago that needed to get a 16:9 upgrade. All of them were using CRT projectors though and not digital projectors. Especially digital projectors installed with severe keystone correction in use.

Yes, I would keep the AT screen.

If you are looking for a full upgrade, then remove the artsy corners and get a wider 16:9 screen in there. Otherwise, just reframe the current screen to a 16:9 aspect ratio. The ONLY reason to get a new screen is to get more width, which this room desperately needs.

Speakers can be a lifelong purchase. Good speakers from 20-25 years ago are STILL good speakers! Same thing with good amplifiers. The technology is a bit different today, but it isn't vastly improved. Things still sound really good? Great! Keep them!

Yes, you will need a 4K capable A/V receiver. You will need 18Gb/s HDMI cables. You will need a few 4K sources so you can enjoy it all.
So, that's like $1,500 to $3,000 for a decent receiver. Maybe a bit more if you get a bit more serious and get a separate amp.
Cabling should be under $100. If the receiver is near the projector, then it should be under $20 for 6' or shorter HDMI cables.
Sources should include a decent UHD Blu-ray Disc player ($100-$500) a Roku Ultra ($100) and whatever live TV service you currently use with a decent cable box.

The projector can be a JVC (I would skip Sony) which is going to start at $5,500 or so. But, the Epson 5050 is a great choice and the lens shift of the Epson may allow for the exact placement you want to get without the tilt and keystone correction of your current bastardized setup. Yes, that tilt of the projector is hurting a lot of people here!

Go wider or don't replace that screen.

THIS SAID: If you are having someone specify a $4,200 screen, look at SeymourAV.com - Their Center Stage material with black backing is under $2K for the current width you have. Working things much wider, as you should, pricing only jumps to about $2,500. I know as a dealer, I make a bit of a profit on their stuff, so any dealer should be able to support this type of purchase. A $4,200 fixed frame AT screen is a pretty hefty money grab.

In reality, a Silver Ticket woven screen may be fine...
https://www.amazon.com/STR-169135-S...erticket+at+screen&qid=1571408668&sr=8-1&th=1

I'm just not sold on you getting a new screen at all if you aren't planning on redoing the front wall completely. That really seems like the first step. Even if it pisses you off that you should do such a thing.

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Cremer Lee

· #13 · Oct 19, 2019

GasPasserDoc said:
So I currently have dedicated home theater room with zero ambient light. The equipment is also over 20 years old so I have an older Epson (no HDMI) projector that sits in back of room. like a real theater and a 135 inch or so diagonal 4:3 AT screen. I have a dolby digital Receiver. I also have 4 polk audio speakers - 2 in middle and 2 in rears. I have presumably 2 or 3 unknown speakers behind the screen which can’t be accessed without bringing the screen down. I am looking to upgrade.

I have one installer telling me to keep all speakers and changing screen to a Screen Innovations 130 inch AT screen ($4200). Positives are that it keeps the clean look of the theater and the sound coming from behind the screen.

Another installer has suggested switching to a non AT screen but changing the speakers . Golden ear wall mounted speakers and one golden ear center channel. Positives are presumable no light reflection /moire effect.

Thoughts ?

Maybe you can refer to this review:
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/23-screens/3005728-xyscreen-comparison-review-5.html#post58063268

GasPasserDoc

Discussion Starter · #14 · Oct 19, 2019 (Edited)

AV_Integrated said:
If you can't go any wider at the front of the room, then getting a new screen, if your current screen is in good shape is pointless.

You can mask the current screen down to 16:9 aspect ratio and get a new projector and call it done. No new speakers, no new screen.

The ONLY reason to get a new screen would be if you intend to get rid of the art at the front of the room and move to a proper 16:9 setup. Movies or not, your room has plenty of height for a 16:9 screen and not enough width for a full on 2.35 setup, so stick with 16:9.

The initial installation, if done 20 years ago, completely failed to account for 16:9 which already existed and was clearly the future of home theater. A shame if that was the case. That said, I dealt with many 4:3 setups from about 25 years ago that needed to get a 16:9 upgrade. All of them were using CRT projectors though and not digital projectors. Especially digital projectors installed with severe keystone correction in use.

Yes, I would keep the AT screen.

If you are looking for a full upgrade, then remove the artsy corners and get a wider 16:9 screen in there. Otherwise, just reframe the current screen to a 16:9 aspect ratio. The ONLY reason to get a new screen is to get more width, which this room desperately needs.

Speakers can be a lifelong purchase. Good speakers from 20-25 years ago are STILL good speakers! Same thing with good amplifiers. The technology is a bit different today, but it isn't vastly improved. Things still sound really good? Great! Keep them!

Yes, you will need a 4K capable A/V receiver. You will need 18Gb/s HDMI cables. You will need a few 4K sources so you can enjoy it all.
So, that's like $1,500 to $3,000 for a decent receiver. Maybe a bit more if you get a bit more serious and get a separate amp.
Cabling should be under $100. If the receiver is near the projector, then it should be under $20 for 6' or shorter HDMI cables.
Sources should include a decent UHD Blu-ray Disc player ($100-$500) a Roku Ultra ($100) and whatever live TV service you currently use with a decent cable box.

The projector can be a JVC (I would skip Sony) which is going to start at $5,500 or so. But, the Epson 5050 is a great choice and the lens shift of the Epson may allow for the exact placement you want to get without the tilt and keystone correction of your current bastardized setup. Yes, that tilt of the projector is hurting a lot of people here!

Go wider or don't replace that screen.

THIS SAID: If you are having someone specify a $4,200 screen, look at SeymourAV.com - Their Center Stage material with black backing is under $2K for the current width you have. Working things much wider, as you should, pricing only jumps to about $2,500. I know as a dealer, I make a bit of a profit on their stuff, so any dealer should be able to support this type of purchase. A $4,200 fixed frame AT screen is a pretty hefty money grab.

In reality, a Silver Ticket woven screen may be fine...
https://www.amazon.com/STR-169135-S...erticket+at+screen&qid=1571408668&sr=8-1&th=1

I'm just not sold on you getting a new screen at all if you aren't planning on redoing the front wall completely. That really seems like the first step. Even if it pisses you off that you should do such a thing.

Damn man, you dropped a bomb on me.

I appreciate your input and Im glad you are knowledgeable enough to advise me. My screen does need an update and I have no desire to open up that wall. So new info, I took the screen down and observed this layout. Looks like 3 speakers and a subwoofer in a a custom built plywood with black felt over it. here are the pics. btw the last pic is upside down.

I am ending this post and continuing the conversation in the Home Theater Section.
https://www.avsforum.com/forum/19-d...ting-dedicated-home-theater.html#post58704674

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JohnnyWilkinson

· #15 · Oct 19, 2019

GasPasserDoc said:
So I currently have dedicated home theater room with zero ambient light. The equipment is also over 20 years old so I have an older Epson (no HDMI) projector that sits in back of room. like a real theater and a 135 inch or so diagonal 4:3 AT screen. I have a dolby digital Receiver. I also have 4 polk audio speakers - 2 in middle and 2 in rears. I have presumably 2 or 3 unknown speakers behind the screen which can’t be accessed without bringing the screen down. I am looking to upgrade.

I have one installer telling me to keep all speakers and changing screen to a Screen Innovations 130 inch AT screen ($4200). Positives are that it keeps the clean look of the theater and the sound coming from behind the screen.

Another installer has suggested switching to a non AT screen but changing the speakers . Golden ear wall mounted speakers and one golden ear center channel. Positives are presumable no light reflection /moire effect.

Thoughts ?

In my opinion, there is absolutely no debate - AT screens are the way forward. If you have a proper one (woven not perforated) it is literally impossible to even distinguish whether the screen is in front of it or not (from an audiophile perspective). It's barely different to standard speaker mesh. Any measurable drop can be fully corrected by EQ. And the gains you get in terms of coupling the audio to the action are immeasurable.

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