AVS Forum banner
1 - 20 of 35 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Ok, I was trying to wait out on purchasing the Lord of the Rings trilogy on Blu-ray because I don't like to double dip, and I already have the Extended Edition Boxed sets, but on Black Friday Amazon was selling them for $7.99 each, so i jumped on it...


well...now i've got an issue with the audio...


All three movies should have 6.1 DTSHD:MA tracks. However, my receiver is only reporting a 5.1 track, and I'm not getting sound from either of my rear speakers.


my current setup (audio wise) is...


Samsung BD-P1500 Blu-ray Player

Sony PS3 (both a slim and a fat)

Onkyo 605

7.1 speakers


Now, i'll try to be as thorough as possible.

- Samsung 1500 set to "bitstream (audiophile)":605 displays audio as "DTSHD:MA 5.1". Sound from only 5 channels. (605 cannot matrix HD audio).

- Samsung 1500 set to a second "bitstream" option (can't remember the exact name now): 605 displays audio as "DTS 5.1." Sound from all 7 channels because PLIIx is doing its thing.

- Samsung 1500 set to "PCM": 605 displays audio as "PCM 5.1." Sound from only 5 channels (605 cannot matrix multichannel PCM).

- PlayStation 3 (slim) set to "bitstream": 605 displays audio as "DTSHD:MA 5.1". Sound from only 5 channels. (605 cannot matrix HD audio). PS3 display shows audio as: "DTSHD:MA multi-channel."

- PlayStation 3 (slim) set to "LPCM": 605 displays audio as "PCM 7.1." Sound from all 7 channels.

- PlayStation 3 (fat) set to "LPCM" (fat can't bitstream): 605 displays audio as "PCM 7.1." Sound from all 7 channels.


Now, I know the simple answer is "just watch them on the PS3." And this is fine for me, but certain members of my family don't feel as familiar with using the PS3, and prefer to use the stand alone player, and I generally leave the PS3 set to bitstream, so its confusing to try to explain to them to change it.


- I'm wondering first, if anyone knows why the 605 is not seeing the 6th channel when either player is set to bitstream, and why even with PCM the 605 is not seeing the 6th channel when coming from the stand alone?


- Secondly, I'm wondering if anyone knows how to fix this?


- Third, Is there anyway to get the 605 to recognize the 6th channel using bitstream? The Sound seemed "fuller" when the receiver was doing to decoding as opposed to the 1500/PS3.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,923 Posts
If I understand, Samsung 1500 can bitstream lossless. DTS HD 6.1 was expected but you got 5.1? What does the Samsung itself report?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/19633410


If I understand, Samsung 1500 can bitstream lossless. DTS HD 6.1 was expected but you got 5.1? What does the Samsung itself report?

the 1500, and both PS3's can bitstream, and 6.1 would have been expected. However the Receiver is only getting 5.1, as are my speakers.


Unfortunately, the 1500 reports relatively limited information when you click the "info" button. The only thing i can get is it says "DTSHD:MA MultiChannel"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,923 Posts
Odd. I admit that it's beyond my diagnostics ability to provide a solution. Is it possible the Samsung is confused, and is making a 5.1 downmix? I don't know.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Discussion Starter · #5 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelJHuman /forum/post/19633475


Odd. I admit that it's beyond my diagnostics ability to provide a solution. Is it possible the Samsung is confused, and is making a 5.1 downmix? I don't know.

that doesn't explain the exact same issue with the PS3 (slim) however.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,006 Posts
I believe LOTR is DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1. It has ES Matrix encoding which apparently is not triggering the ES decoder on your receiver. Others have reported that, too. But, no problem. Simply engage the ES decoder yourself. Or, apply a DSP such as Neo:6 or even PLIIx. Of course, you have limits with the ability to apply DSPs when decoding dts-MA with of some of your equipment. But, again, LOTR is not dts-MA 6.1. It's 5.1 with ES-Matrix.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,923 Posts
Good point, sorry. I did not read carefully enough.


As I recall, my DVD copies do have 6.1 mixes, so I think you are correct on the 6.1 thing (and I assume the boxes are labeled as such.)


I will be interested to see any explanation people can offer about this.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,395 Posts
If you can afford the time and effort...


(1) Temporarily disconnect the appropriate rear speaker from the Onkyo 605 to convert your system into a 6.1 [don't bother to rebalance the speakers; just get the internal configuration reset to 6.1]. (2) Rerun the 'bitstream' test using either/both the Samsung 1500 and PlayStation 3 (slim). (3) Check for content from all six speakers and the Onkyo display to say "DTSHD:MA 6.1" or something similar.


If your Onkyo now correctly plays in DTSHD:MA 6.1, you will have demonstrated that the problem lies in the as-required post-decompression speaker-remapping phase of the DTS-HDMA decoder.


Speaker remapping is required in order to play a DTS-HDMA 6.1 authored disk on a 7.1 speaker configured system (and vice versa). If it is not available, the BD will play in DTS-HDMA 5.1 'mixdown mode' as a fall-back.


If you verify this as the problem, there may be a firmware update from Onkyo to fix the issue.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,006 Posts

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex /forum/post/19633594


If your Onkyo now correctly plays in DTSHD:MA 6.1, you will have demonstrated that the problem lies in the as-required post-decompression speaker-remapping phase of the DTS-HDMA decoder.


Speaker remapping is required in order to play a DTS-HDMA 6.1 authored disk on a 7.1 speaker configured system (and vice versa). If it is not available, the BD will play in DTS-HDMA 5.1 'mixdown mode' as a fall-back.



Does this apply if the disc is actually 5.1?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander /forum/post/19633523


I believe LOTR is DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1. It has ES Matrix encoding which apparently is not triggering the ES decoder on your receiver. Others have reported that, too. But, no problem. Simply engage the ES decoder yourself. Or, apply a DSP such as Neo:6 or even PLIIx. Of course, you have limits with the ability to apply DSPs when decoding dts-MA with of some of your equipment. But, again, LOTR is not dts-MA 6.1. It's 5.1 with ES-Matrix.


ok, let me get this straight...excuse me for just trying to cover all bases.


- Even though its labeled as DTSHD 6.1 on the packaging, its not really?


- I am not exactly sure what you're saying about "ES decoder" so how do i engage it?


- The DSP in the 605 is somewhat limited when it comes to "HD-audio." It only has 1 "listening mode" for DTS:MA.


- Why is it that i use the PS3 on LPCM it gives me the full audio?

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex /forum/post/19633594

If you can afford the time and effort...


(1) Temporarily disconnect the appropriate rear speaker from the Onkyo 605 to convert your system into a 6.1 [don't bother to rebalance the speakers; just get the internal configuration reset to 6.1]. (2) Rerun the 'bitstream' test using either/both the Samsung 1500 and PlayStation 3 (slim). (3) Check for content from all six speakers and the Onkyo display to say "DTSHD:MA 6.1" or something similar.


If your Onkyo now correctly plays in DTSHD:MA 6.1, you will have demonstrated that the problem lies in the as-required post-decompression speaker-remapping phase of the DTS-HDMA decoder.


Speaker remapping is required in order to play a DTS-HDMA 6.1 authored disk on a 7.1 speaker configured system (and vice versa). If it is not available, the BD will play in DTS-HDMA 5.1 'mixdown mode' as a fall-back.


If you verify this as the problem, there may be a firmware update from Onkyo to fix the issue.

will try this in a few minutes...


- Can i just unhook the wires from the back of the speaker? or does it need to be from the back of the receiver itself?


Update: just got off the phone with Samsung...based on my conversation with level 2 support. The 1500 can bitstream, but not decode DTSHD. Knowing the PS3 (slim) can do both, that explains why when they are both set to "PCM" i get the proper audio out of the PS3, but not the 1500. The PS3 is properly decoding the 6.1 mix and sending her along the way as PCM, im assuming the 1500 is decoding a DTS downsample to PCM and sending it along as 5.1 PCM...


so that leads us back to the Onkyo 605.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,395 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander
Does this apply if the disc is actually 5.1?
Whether or not a DTS-HDMA 5.1 track--either 'native authored' or 'forced mixdown'--once decoded in the AVR can then playback on a 6.1/7.1 speaker configured system would seem to depend on the particular AVR's capabilities to add EX/DPLIIx/etc post processing. I can't see why there would need to be a treatment distinction between a 'native authored' or 'forced mixdown' DTS-HDMA 5.1 track . . . but then I didn't write the code!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,923 Posts
You can probably just configure the Onkyo to tell it one rear speaker.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
9,006 Posts
Comments in bold.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metfanant
- Even though its labeled as DTSHD 6.1 on the packaging, its not really?
Yes, I believe that's the case. Mine say 5.1. But, there are some cases that say 6.1. From the reading I've done, I'm almost positive the LOTR BDs are 5.1 ES Matrix.


- I am not exactly sure what you're saying about "ES decoder" so how do i engage it?
It would just be a surround mode like PLIIx and DTS Neo:6. Not all receivers have the option. But, DTS Neo:6 does the same thing.


- The DSP in the 605 is somewhat limited when it comes to "HD-audio." It only has 1 "listening mode" for DTS:MA.
Yes, that's a limitation with the 605 - no room correction or surround processing when decoding lossless.


- Why is it that i use the PS3 on LPCM it gives me the full audio?
I think the PS3 decoder is picking up the ES flag and processing it properly. I have a vague recollection seeing posts from people on this subject saying the PS3 handles LOTR correctly. But, I'm not sure about that. I only have a 5.1 system.
This is from an email from Oppo posted at blu-ray.com answering an inquiry about LOTR in April:

"As long as the HDMI is set to Bit Stream the player is sending the raw data to your receiver for processing. What your receiver does with the signal is then up to the DSP capabilities.


The OSD of our player based on how many audio tracks are decoded from the stream and does not include the audio tracks created with Dolby Digital ES or DTS EX processing. If HDMI audio is set to LPCM output, the player can only output 5.1ch LPCM since the output is from the decoder (which does not support Dolby Digital ES or DTS EX decoding).


Lord of the Rings uses a DTS-HD Master Audio 5.1 with an ES Matrix for the Surround Back Channel. It is possible that the receiver can't handle the additional EX matrixing. We have seen this on lower end Onkyo and Yamaha receivers.


Best Regards,"
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,395 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metfanant
- Why is it that i use the PS3 on LPCM it gives me the full audio?
The PS3 is reading the 7.1 EDID from the AVR and correctly performing 'in-player' speaker remapping after decompression. (IIRC) The PS3 decoder was fixed with a firmware release a couple of years ago.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Metfanant
Can i just unhook the wires from the back of the speaker? or does it need to be from the back of the receiver itself?
Either, or you may just need to manually select 'one rear speaker' in the AVR setup...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Discussion Starter · #15 ·
Ok, Update #2


tried disconnecting the left rear, then changing for 1 rear speaker, as well as reconnecting the left, and disconnecting the right rear and trying again (once again...just trying to be thorough).


so here goes...


Sammy 1500 "bitstream": Onkyo reports DTS HD 5.1, does NOT play from rear


Sammy 1500 "PCM": Onkyo reports PCM 5.1, does NOT play from rear


PS3 "bitstream": Onkyo reports DTS HD 5.1, does NOT play from rear.


PS3 "LPCM": Onkyo reports PCM 7.1, DOES play from rear


So this leaves ME with these conclusions...


- the Onkyo just doesn't see the "added" channel that the disc is trying to send it when bitstreamed from either the 1500 or PS3


- The 1500 can't decode the DTSHD track, so its sending along a 5.1 PCM track when set to PCM.


- The PS3 DOES see the "added" channel the disc has, so it properly decodes it and sends it along as 7.1 (rear channel doubled to each rear speaker) PCM.



Edit: just for HaHa's i'll reconnect both rear speakers and try just setting the Onkyo to one rear channel and see if it makes a difference...it surely won't. but its worth a shot...




so suggestions? Get on the phone with Onkyo tomorrow and see if this was/can be fixed with a firmware update?..


I know the 605 is very limited in what it can do with DTSHD, TrueHD, and MultiPCM...it only has one listening mode for each of the lossless codecs, and as for PCM can only do "direct" or "multichannel" which adds some kick, and low end grunt to the sound...no PLIIx or anything can be applied to those three audio outputs....


i guess this added rear channel is another limitation?


Edit 2: Just for fun i threw in my DVD copies of the Extended Editions which all come with a DD 5.1 track as well as a DTS 6.1 track...


Samsung 1500 "bitstream": recognized as DTS ES Discrete 6.1, plays fine out of the rear speakers


PS3 "LPCM": PS3 says its a DTS ES Discrete 6.1, Onkyo says 7.1 PCM, plays fine.


PS3 "Bitstream": PS3 says its a DTS "multi channel," Onkyo says DTS 6.1, does NOT play from rear speakers lolol...just one more headache lol
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,395 Posts
Quote:
Originally Posted by Metfanant
Sammy 1500 "bitstream": Onkyo reports DTS HD 5.1, does NOT play from rear.

PS3 "bitstream": Onkyo reports DTS HD 5.1, does NOT play from rear.
This would seem to indicate (1) that the BD is actually DTS-HDMA 5.1 (likely with a legacy DTS6.1-ES core), and that the box labeling is wrong [as discussed widely elsewhere on the net], and (2) that your current configuration can upmix to 7.1 only when decoding in the players...
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
178 Posts
Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by BIslander
I think the PS3 is your only option for lossless with rear channel audio.
right...now here is the question how "good" is the 5.1 going to be compared to the 6.1 decoded by the PS3??...should be the same yes?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoundChex
This would seem to indicate (1) that the BD is actually DTS-HDMA 5.1 (likely with a legacy DTS6.1-ES core), and that the box labeling is wrong [as discussed widely elsewhere on the net], and (2) that your current configuration can upmix to 7.1 only when decoding in the players...
I'm going to try and give Onkyo a call tomorrow (if they are open on Sunday, and if not on Monday) and see what they have to say. Maybe there is something im missing in the setup of the receiver that they could help me with, and maybe there is a firmware update that allows the 605 to pick up on that 6th channel from the BD disc...


at the end of the day...here's to hoping that when the extended editions get released we get a proper 7.1 DTSMA track (though id settle for proper 6.1 as well lol)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,923 Posts
Thanks for clearing all that up Mr. Chex. You can't trust packaging I guess.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
773 Posts
I had this kind of issue with my 805 and panny 1600 bd. I had to do a few things and it then worked great until I replaced it:


Turn hdmi audio out off on my 805 (now i cannot pass-through audio over hdmi)

Turn secondary audio to "off" on the bd player.

Of course bitstream from the bd player (I did not know at the time).
 
1 - 20 of 35 Posts
Top