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Audiophile PC-DVD Transport?

353 Views 7 Replies 5 Participants Last post by David Panko, Dec 6, 2000

PanamaMike

Discussion Starter · Dec 5, 2000

Hello everyone,

I'm new to the board. I'm in the process of selecting parts for a HTPC. Unfortunately I haven't had much feedback on the Home Theater PC board regarding the best quality PC-DVD transport.

From what I can tell the Pioneer PC-DVD players are considered the best. I was wondering if these transports are similar or equivalent to their Audio equipment transports?

Are these transports of good quality or will I want to go out and buy a separate unit for high quality sound?

Is there a good way to get high quality audio play back from a PC that would be comparable to a good piece of audio equipment such as a Theta? (I'm using them as an example since they use the Pioneer transport).

I'd appreciate any input you guys could provide.

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Buzz Goddard

· #2 · Dec 5, 2000

It appears that the mechanics of the transport have more to do with the ultimate sound quality then would appear to be the case on the surface.

Not a huge surprise given that the real reference quality machines seemed to have a common design; top loading.

Don't think you'll find a top loading rig for a PC http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif

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Buzz Goddard
www.tagmclarenaudio.com

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TheaterJeff

· #3 · Dec 6, 2000

PanamaMike:

In a word, no, you can't get reference quality playback on a PC. There is nothing even close that can do what Theta, Pioneer, Meridian, or any other reference stand alone player can. If you simply want the best DVD drive on a HTPC, then I would suggest the Pioneer or Ricoh units that offer 12X playback. You will get a good quality drive for a PC, but it won't even come close to a reference stand alone unit. If you need help building a HTPC or choosing a drive for it let me know.

Happy shopping,

Jeff

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Come visit our new theater site at: www.AudioVideoForum.com

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Dave T

· #4 · Dec 6, 2000

This is very interesting! I always thought that as long as you sent the digital audio signal to your pre-amp from the PC, there was no way for the PC to screw up the audio at all. In what way can the pc affect the audio quality one way or the other, if it's not modifying the digital signal?

There's an interesting thread at http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/Forum12/HTML/003123.html , in which someone proved that there was no difference in the AC-3 audio from two different sound cards.

Or, perhaps I'm missing something. Not the first time!

- Dave

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David Panko

· #5 · Dec 6, 2000

Hi DaveT,

If you spend some time searching the HTPC forum you'll find a number of great suggestions on how to get excellent DVD playback from a PC. Yes, you can get high quality audio from a PC by using the AP 24/96 soundcard. It's been designed for professional use and a lot of effort has gone into shielding and isolating the card from the RF noise within a PC.

BTW.. one of the findings in that thread was that jitter can affect an AC-3 bitstream, so you can't assume that all DVD transports are created equal.

Cheers,

Dave.

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PanamaMike

Discussion Starter · #6 · Dec 6, 2000

Thanks for the input guys, it pretty much validated what I thought regarding the build transport quality. Jeff, I'll be sure to consult with you if I need additional help making final descisions on the pc-dvd choice. Right now it looks like the Pioneer 115 tray loading.

I've also heard something along the lines that Pioneer is the only one that is capable of passing a true 24/96 signal. Is this also true in the PC-DVD world?

Knowing what you all have presented here begs the question, is it worth investing the extra $$$ in the HTPC for high quality audio? Should I just dedicate it to DVD play back and get a lower cost SPDIF, SB Value, pass thru for 5.1 and build a dedicated sound system?

I guess my main curiousity is what level of HIFI or mid fi is possible from a PC with the quality equipment.

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Dave T

· #7 · Dec 6, 2000

Ok, Dave, thanks!

I just scanned through that thread again, and it's sister thread " Topic: Does the sound card/dvd player affect Dolby Digital over S/PDIF? ". I see that you were an active participant in both. This is from your summary in the second thread:

Quote:

As a re-cap of the Best sound card to use with Lexicon DC-2? thread for those just joining this thread, here's the story so far:

The question is whether a soundcard or a software DVD player can affect the sound quality of a Dolby Digital (AC-3) signal over S/PDIF. Todd is an R&D engineer at Dolby Labs who has been kind enough to run some tests for us on various soundcards and software players to assess the differences.

Software DVD players

Todd found that the audio data bitstreams between PowerDVD 3.0 and WinDVD 2.3 were identical

We discussed whether improper padding of the data packets could affect sound quality. Todd demonstrated that both software players correctly pad the data.

It is still an open question whether or not the software players affect the Dolby Digital "Meta-data" which controls dynamic range compression on the decoder.

Soundcards

Todd found that the audio data bitstreams between the SBLive! and Delta Dio were identical

Todd and Cliff explained how jitter in a AC-3 S/PDIF bitstream can be propagated to the the decoder's DACs since most pre/pro's extract their master clock from the S/PDIF signal

Some high-end processors (MC-1, Ovation, 861, Casablanca II) advertise re-clocking so jitter should not affect these processors

Todd presented evidence that jitter on the order of 20 nanoseconds can be audible

It remains to be determined what the SBLive! and Delta Dio jitter measurements are in terms of nanoseconds.

So I think the remaining open questions before putting this thread to bed are whether software players can affect the meta-data and whether the jitter on a SBLive! or Delta Dio is greater than 20 nanoseconds.

This has been very educational so far!

Cheers,

Dave.

There's a lot of stuff there, and I only had time for a 10 minute scan. But, I don't see where there's conclusive proof of a difference in audio when playing AC/3 off of a DVD on an HTPC. It looks like there is a possibility of jitter, which is moot if you have a high-end processor that does jitter compensation, and even then, nobody has proven that there is actually any audible difference. Also, that the sound card is as much or more important in the audio playback quality as the DVD player. Is this correct?

- Dave

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David Panko

· #8 · Dec 6, 2000

Hi guys,

"I've also heard something along the lines that Pioneer is the only one that is capable of passing a true 24/96 signal. Is this also true in the PC-DVD world?"

The ability to pass 24/96 audio is a function of the software and soundcard, not of the DVD-ROM drive.

"Knowing what you all have presented here begs the question, is it worth investing the extra $$$ in the HTPC for high quality audio? Should I just dedicate it to DVD play back and get a lower cost SPDIF, SB Value, pass thru for 5.1 and build a dedicated sound system?"

Given that the AP24/96 is only $150 or so more than a SBLive, I'd get the pro soundcard to give you the flexibility to play CDs, MP3s and 24/96 DVDs with high quality. The Chesky 24/96 DVDs played through the MAudio's DAC sound better than any CD player I've heard, including Mark Levinson and Krell gear.

That said, I don't recommend using a PC for dedicated audio.. it's a pain to boot Windows whenever you want to listen to a CD and the whine of the fans and hard drive is distracting.

"Also, that the sound card is as much or more important in the audio playback quality as the DVD player. Is this correct?"

I think the soundcard is much more important than the software DVD player, since the soundcard is generating the clock. It's been demonstrated that the AC-3 bits are identical between different soundcards and players, the other variable still in question is the timing of those bits. Many people have noticed a difference between consumer-grade and pro- soundcards on DD5.1 audio, so either jitter is a factor or we have a case of mass delusion http://www.avsforum.com/ubb/smile.gif .

Dave.

[This message has been edited by David Panko (edited 12-06-2000).]

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