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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I received my Audyssey Sub Equalizer today. My wife took the boys to my mother's for a couple hours so I could 'quickly' calibrate it and my Denon AVR-3808CI.



The process to calibrate the Sub Equalizer was pretty painless, and rather quick. Running MultEQ Pro on my Denon proved to move along rather quickly as well. I believe I was able to take 8 measurements for each calibration in about 1 1/2 hr. I don't think that was too bad considering I hadn't even opened the FedEx package yet.


Unfortunately I haven't had any time to test any demo material yet. By the time the wife and kids came back, it was time for baths, bedtime stories, and some chores around the house.
I have taken the time to run some REW graphs (doing so doesn't wake the boys!). Last night I took some pre-EQ graphs, so today I could run some post-Sub EQ graphs. Hopefully I don't bore you guys to tears!



I am going to break up these graphs in 3 parts...

1) Pre Sub Equalizer

2) Sub Equalizer

3) Post Sub Equalizer

Pre Sub Equalizer consists of FR graphs that I took last night before I had a Sub Equalizer in the mix. At this point all I had was MultEQ Pro run on my Denon.

Sub Equalizer consists of FR graphs that I took after calibrating the Sub Equalizer, and re-calibrating MultEQ Pro on my Denon. For these FR graphs I simply turned off Audyssey in my Denon.

Post Sub Equalizer consists of FR graphs with Audyssey turned on in my Denon. As well as some final FR graphs showing exactly what the Sub Equalizer did for my system in regards to flattening my FR.


NOTE: I always take 3 measurements, using my main 3 listening positions, and average them when I use REW. Also, for all of my REW graphs I set the crossover for my mains at 120Hz and pulled the wires from them. Only my subs (dual SVS PB13 Ultras) are in the sweeps. I used a digital Radio Shack SPL meter.


Let's get started...
 

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Discussion Starter · #2 ·
Pre Sub Equalizer


Here is what MultEQ Pro showed as my before FR...




Here is what REW showed as my before FR. I used 1/3 smoothing to make it look similar to the one above...




Just in case you don't like smoothing...




Here is a waterfall of a before measurement...




Here is what MultEQ Pro showed as my after FR. It looks pretty darn good if I do say so myself. I do see room for improvement though
...




Here is what REW showed as my after FR...




Again, just in case you don't like smoothing...




Here is a waterfall of an after measurement...




Before and after MultEQ Pro together...




No smoothing...

 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Sub Equalizer


Here is what MultEQ Pro showed as my before FR...




Here is what MultEQ Pro showed as my after FR...




Here is what REW showed as my after FR...




No smoothing...




Here is a waterfall of an after measurement...

 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Post Sub Equalizer


Here is what MultEQ Pro showed as my before FR...




Here is what MultEQ Pro showed as my after FR...




Here is what REW showed as my after FR...




No smoothing...




Here is a waterfall of an after measurement...




Before and after MultEQ Pro together...




No smoothing...



Okay, now here are the most interesting graphs. Here is a comparsion between what MultEQ Pro only and MultEQ Pro with a Sub Equalizer got me...



No smoothing...

 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
I know you guys would like to read some really indepth initial impressions, but I just don't have many right now. What I can say though is that MultEQ Pro had already done wonders for my system. I only purchased the Sub Equalizer because I just wanted to see what all the buzz was about with the SVS AS-EQ1. As you can see, adding a Sub Equalizer really does flattening the FR that much more. Doubling the resolution really does the trick.


I will hopefully post more tomorrow if I have time to watch some movies or listen to some music.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
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Thank you so much for these measurements!

If it's not taking too much time, would you be kind eough to show us some more

REW's waterfall graphs? I believe many of us are interested to see how that works

in the time domain.
 

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Thanks


It looks like the "pre" had a 10-20Hz "bump".

How does it sound without that?

I suspect that for some HT material that could have actually been a benefit, if a little boomy.


Mike
 

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Thanks, Doug. I am looking forward to your listening eval as well. Will you be able to compare the various permutations, or just comment on one configuration/combination?
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ken wu /forum/post/16964539


Thank you so much for these measurements!

If it's not taking too much time, would you be kind eough to show us some more

REW's waterfall graphs? I believe many of us are interested to see how that works

in the time domain.

I haven't ever messed with that functionality in REW. I saved all of my REW measurements though. Do I just click on the 'Waterfall' tab and then click on 'Create Waterfall'? I just noticed that I can't create a waterfall for the graphs I posted above because they are all averages of 3 measurements each. I can create waterfalls for the individual measurements. I also see that I can overlay one waterfall with another. Point me in the right direction and I will post some waterfalls.
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike_WI /forum/post/16964757


Thanks


It looks like the "pre" had a 10-20Hz "bump".

How does it sound without that?

I suspect that for some HT material that could have actually been a benefit, if a little boomy.


Mike

A 'little boomy' is putting it nicely. Without any EQ my subs are extremely boomy. I have them corner loaded... one in each corner up front. Since I don't have any room up front, the subs are only about 4" front the walls.


Honestly though, I don't think this EQ is going to be for everyone. Regular MultEQ XT on my Denon calibrated my subs hot and boomy compared to how MultEQ Pro calibrated my Denon (even without the Sub Equalizer in the mix). For example, Regular MultEQ XT set my sub trim level to -4.5 and MultEQ Pro put them at -10. It took me a long time to get used to flat, 'reference' bass. With my digital RS meter set to MAX, my subs read 74/75 after running MultEQ Pro versus 79/80 with regular MultEQ XT.


MultEQ Pro has calibrated the Sub Equalizer to the same dB levels on my SPL meter (74/75). My sub trim level is now set at -4, which is kinda cool. Since I was able to level match my subs to -0.1dB each, this tells me I am gaining roughly 4 dB by running duals.


My boys are currently watching Bolt. I am going to try and turn up the volume a bit. I'll post some impressions soon.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle /forum/post/16964798


Sorry,if I missed something,but are using the Audyssey sub equalizer in conjunction with the existing Audyssey in your Denon?

Thanks

The Sub Equalizer is calibrated a bit differently than the AS-EQ1 because the Installer kit is used, namely the Pro mic.


First, you calibrate the Sub Equalizer using the MultEQ Pro software. If you use an Audyssey-enabled AVR or Pre/Pro, you disregard the distance and trim level. Instead you leave the Sub Equalizer in place and calibrate MultEQ Pro (or 2EQ, MultEQ, MultEQ XT, etc) on your AVR or Pre/Pro. That process then sets your distance and trim level for your subs. Since the Sub Equalizer has already 'corrected' your subs, running Audyssey on top of that isn't a problem. You can roughly see in my graphs above what running Audyssey Pro on my Denon on top of the SubEQ did.


Hopefully this answers your question.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by pepar /forum/post/16964891


Thanks, Doug. I am looking forward to your listening eval as well. Will you be able to compare the various permutations, or just comment on one configuration/combination?

I already have a lot of existing impressions on how MultEQ Pro calibrated my Denon. I was planning on comparing that to what adding the Sub Equalizer does. Would you like for me to compare something specific? I really wasn't planning on comparing what turning Audyssey on/off in my Denon does. As you can see, running Mult EQ Pro on my Denon on top of the Sub Equalizer really didn't change things that much (as Chris foretold).
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil /forum/post/16965269


The Sub Equalizer is calibrated a bit differently than the AS-EQ1 because the Installer kit is used, namely the Pro mic.


First, you calibrate the Sub Equalizer using the MultEQ Pro software. If you use an Audyssey-enabled AVR or Pre/Pro, you disregard the distance and trim level. Instead you leave the Sub Equalizer in place and calibrate MultEQ Pro (or 2EQ, MultEQ, MultEQ XT, etc) on your AVR or Pre/Pro. That process then sets your distance and trim level for your subs. Since the Sub Equalizer has already 'corrected' your subs, running Audyssey on top of that isn't a problem. You can roughly see in my graphs above what running Audyssey Pro on my Denon on top of the SubEQ did.


Hopefully this answers your question.

Yes! Thanks. What if you are using multiple subs? The Sub Equalizer can independently handle a couple of different woofers, while built in Audyssey Pro only adjusts for one. You just let the Denon Audyssey treat the sub equalized woofers as one?
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by ddingle /forum/post/16965379


Yes! Thanks. What if you are using multiple subs? The Sub Equalizer can independently handle a couple of different woofers, while built in Audyssey Pro only adjusts for one. You just let the Denon Audyssey treat the sub equalized woofers as one?

You are right, the Denon does only handle one sub, but the Sub Equalizer treats the subs as 'one' as well. During calibration, the only time the subs are pinged individually is during the first measurement. Every measurement after that is with both subs together (same as with the AS-EQ1 I believe).


The MultEQ Pro software does allow you to calibrate your subs individually. You can either use the 'dual discrete' mode if your AVR or Pre/Pro has multiple sub outputs (FYI, this functionality is available for the AS-EQ1 as well), or you can use the multi zone modes (specific to MultEQ Pro). At any rate, Audyssey does not recommend you calibrating your subs individually if they are in the same zone.
 

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First, thanks to Counsil for all the measurements:

you're very accurate
.


From the rew i saw that the Sub Equalizer do a good job in your house:

if i don't missed something, rew after the only Sub Equalizer (second step...) is very close to the rew after Audissey Pro + Sub Equalizer (third step..).

That's right?


Moreover i have read all your discussion (in the PB13 official thread...) about the issue with 3808's Multi XT and PB13.

Now, either Audissey Pro and Sub Equalizer seem to identify the right PB13's natural roll off.

Do you think that the SVS AS-EQ1 could do the same mistake that MultiXT did, or it's really similar to your Sub Equalizer (and therefore it could do a good job with our PB13?
).



Thanks again
!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by counsil /forum/post/16965085


I haven't ever messed with that functionality in REW. I saved all of my REW measurements though. Do I just click on the 'Waterfall' tab and then click on 'Create Waterfall'? I just noticed that I can't create a waterfall for the graphs I posted above because they are all averages of 3 measurements each. I can create waterfalls for the individual measurements. I also see that I can overlay one waterfall with another. Point me in the right direction and I will post some waterfalls.

I believe you can only generate waterfall graph from a single measurement(can't do that with an "average").

What I meant was creating waterfall from REW from a single spot measurement, by comparing before and after results we get to observe its time domain effects.


As I understand that the AS-EQ1 requires multiple measurement to generate its FR graph, by repeating one spot measurement

you should be able to get the graph
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo81 /forum/post/16965550


First, thanks to Counsil for all the measurements:

you're very accurate
.

Overall, I think my REW graphs are very similar to the output graphs MultEQ Pro provided in all cases. I have read several posts where folks have tried to compare REW graphs with the output graphs from their AS-EQ1 calibration, but with very little success. I don't see why they are having a hard time doing so. Maybe they don't have REW setup correctly. I also remember reading something from Ed Mullen stating several measurements should be taken (then averaged). This is why I took 3 measurements and averaged them for all of my REW graphs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo81 /forum/post/16965550


From the rew i saw that the Sub Equalizer do a good job in your house:

if i don't missed something, rew after the only Sub Equalizer (second step...) is very close to the rew after Audissey Pro + Sub Equalizer (third step..).

That's right?

Absolutely. Pepar and I have had some 'intense' discussions regarding this very subject. So far, I don't see any adverse effects of running MultEQ Pro in the AVR on top of MultEQ Pro on the Sub Equalizer. This said, I don't think I had any major dips for the two calibrations to over-correct on. The jury is still out.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Simo81 /forum/post/16965550


Moreover i have read all your discussion (in the PB13 official thread...) about the issue with 3808's Multi XT and PB13.

Now, either Audissey Pro and Sub Equalizer seem to identify the right PB13's natural roll off.

Do you think that the SVS AS-EQ1 could do the same mistake that MultiXT did, or it's really similar to your Sub Equalizer (and therefore it could do a good job with our PB13?
).

I really wanted to stay away from this question; however, I knew it was going to come up eventually. I had asked this very question to Ed Mullen. I was desperate. He knew I was. He was able to re-create my scenario in his lab (over and over again). However, MultEQ Pro always provided great results for him. I still have the email, and I believe I copied most of it in the Audyssey thread. At any rate, he steered me towards MultEQ Pro instead of selling me the AS-EQ1. This could have been for many reasons. He could have been trying to get rid of me (my top guess
), he didn't want to sell me someone else's AS-EQ1 to shut me up (my second guess), or he didn't want to admit that the AS-EQ1 wouldn't have detected the naturall rolloff of my subs either (I don't think this is true). Personally, I think the AS-EQ1 would have 'fixed' my issue. From what I have read, I am under the impression that the SubEQ software is based on the MultEQ Pro software.
 
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