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AURO-3D® isn't a native format?

1140 Views 22 Replies 8 Participants Last post by sajihassan, 5 h ago

Saturn2888

Discussion Starter · 7 d ago

3

I have a Marantz AV 10, and I bought both AURO-3D demo discs:

Looking through the audio files, many of them are 7.1 PCM and the others are DTS-HD MA 5.1 and 7.1. There are no files I've found so far that are natively AURO-3D.

IMAX Enhanced content is just a modified DTS:X, but it still shows up differently in my pre-pro without me touching anything. From what I've tested, I need to enable the AURO-3D upmixer when watching AURO-3D content just like I would with Dolby Pro Logic and Pro Logic II.

Am I wrong?

And it doesn't even work 100% of the time. With the Vol. 2 disc, everything enables height channels, but with the original 2014 disc, I couldn't get the height channels to activate while the AURO-3D upmixer was enabled neither in PCM nor DTS-HD. This is very strange. I really thought AURO-3D was a native format; heck, there's even something called Auro3D Native.

Supplimental Research
The Yamaha RX-A6A I own also has AURO-3D capabilities. I haven't yet tested it, but this line in Yamaha's release article makes me wonder what it means:

Rectangle Font Circle Number Paper

Source: What is AURO-3D®? An In-Depth Exploration - Yamaha Music

It would make sense that AURO-3D requires the upmixer because it can ride on another format like PCM, Dolby Digital (AC3), and DTS. This way, it's available on all sorts of players like Roku, Apple TV, every Smart TV, etc and will work even if you don't have the proper decoder (just like Dolby Pro Logic).

Additional Thoughts
If AURO-3D really is something that needs an upmixer, does that mean that some DTS-HD 5.1 discs are actually AURO-3D in disguise? Yamaha noted some movies as being in AURO-3D, and I'm wondering if their tracks are DTS-HD MA but really AURO-3D in disguise:

American Sniper (Atmos)
Black Panther (Blu-ray is DTS-HD MA; UHD is Atmos)
How To Train Your Dragon 2 (Blu-ray is DTS-HD MA; UHD is DTS:X)
Red Tails (Blu-ray is DTS-HD MA)
Spider Man: Homecoming (Blu-ray is DTS-HD MA)
The Expendables 3 (Atmos)

From seeing these releases, there's some evidence of AURO-3D from the use of DTS-HD MA, but most Blu-rays use DTS-HD, so it's not conclusive.

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1 - 20 of 23 Posts

niterida

· #2 · 7 d ago (Edited)

Firstly - yes Airo-3D is a native mix. It is presented in 7.1 format and then the Auro-3D decoder extracts the height signals from the 7.1 using metadata encoded in the 7.1 stream.
Auro, DTS and Dolby are 3 completely separate entities/codecs and Auro does not "use" DTS
You need to have the AVR set to AURO mode for it play Auro tracks.

Saturn2888

Discussion Starter · #3 · 7 d ago

Ok, so AURO-3D requires I change the receiver manually unlike Dolby Digital, TrueHD, and the various DTS formats correct? There's no way for my receiver to know the content being played is AURO-3D otherwise?

And what metadata exists in the 7.1 stream? Doesn't all AURO-3D content have height channels? Because they're not always activating on the first demo disc's content.

niterida

· #4 · 7 d ago

Saturn2888 said:
Ok, so AURO-3D requires I change the receiver manually unlike Dolby Digital, TrueHD, and the various DTS formats correct? There's no way for my receiver to know the content being played is AURO-3D otherwise?

Not sure but if it is an Auro source and the AVR doesn't automatically change to Auro then I guess you will have to do it manually.

Saturn2888 said:
And what metadata exists in the 7.1 stream? Doesn't all AURO-3D content have height channels? Because they're not always activating on the first demo disc's content.

I am assuming it is the same as Atmo where the source is actually 7.1 so it plays over a 7.1 system, but the Atmos decoder uses the metadata to extract the height channel signal. The height channel signal is still contained within the 7.1 so you don't lose anything when played on 7.1

Smarter users than me (@sdurani

) can explain it better

Reactions: 2

sdurani

· #5 · 7 d ago

Saturn2888 said:
Ok, so AURO-3D requires I change the receiver manually unlike Dolby Digital, TrueHD, and the various DTS formats correct? There's no way for my receiver to know the content being played is AURO-3D otherwise?

In theory, the soundtrack should have an Auro3D flag in the metadata and the receiver should recognize the flag so that it automatically switches to Auro3D decoding. In theory. IF this doesn't happen, you can switch to Auro3D mode manually.

And what metadata exists in the 7.1 stream? Doesn't all AURO-3D content have height channels? Because they're not always activating on the first demo disc's content.

Auro3D encoding works by discarding the least significant 6-8 bits from each base layer channel. Each height channel is dithered down to 6-8 bits and spliced onto its respective base layer channel to bring it back to its original 24 bits. Despite the height info being encoded, the soundtrack is indistinguishable from a standard 5.1 or 7.1 track. This is how Auro maintains backwards compatibility. It's also why Auro3D decoding might not always activate in your receiver.

Reactions: 2

Saturn2888

Discussion Starter · #6 · 7 d ago

If it doesn't activate, is this a receiver bug? I'll try this out on my Yamaha and see if it fares better than my Marantz.

And the other issue I ran into is that height channels sometimes couldn't be extracted when using the AURO-3D mode on AURO-3D content.

Krobar

· #7 · 7 d ago

Saturn2888 said:
If it doesn't activate, is this a receiver bug? I'll try this out on my Yamaha and see if it fares better than my Marantz.

And the other issue I ran into is that height channels sometimes couldn't be extracted when using the AURO-3D mode on AURO-3D content.

It could be a bug but best ask in the AV10 owners thread to find that out.

One problem I have seen a few times is that Panasonic and other Bluray players need the Secondary Audio option disabled for Auro to be detected. Most receivers/prepros change the display from "Auro 3D" to Auro 13.1 or Auro 11.1 when Auro Native is detected (There are others Auro Native channel layouts).

Of the movies you list; the only one available on Bluray with Auro 3D Native is Redtails and you need the correct German Bluray release which is in fact PCM 5.1 with Auro Native encoding.

Reactions: 1

Saturn2888

Discussion Starter · #8 · 7 d ago

Thanks! I only have an old Samsung Blu-ray player, and I ripped the discs and was trying to load them through the NVIDIA SHIELD. I also tried a Roku Ultra hooked up to my Yamaha RX-A6A receiver with the same issue as my Marantz AV 10.

Some files are DTS in the audio track and some are PCM. The PCM ones don't engage heights when using the upmixer, and some of the DTS ones don't either.

Are the DTS ones gonna load up correctly as Auro Native? What about the PCM ones? What magic do I need to make it work? Does it matter if my SHIELD or Roku is the output device?

Krobar

· #9 · 7 d ago

Saturn2888 said:
Thanks! I only have an old Samsung Blu-ray player, and I ripped the discs and was trying to load them through the NVIDIA SHIELD. I also tried a Roku Ultra hooked up to my Yamaha RX-A6A receiver with the same issue as my Marantz AV 10.

Some files are DTS in the audio track and some are PCM. The PCM ones don't engage heights when using the upmixer, and some of the DTS ones don't either.

Are the DTS ones gonna load up correctly as Auro Native? What about the PCM ones? What magic do I need to make it work? Does it matter if my SHIELD or Roku is the output device?

The Shield will not work for Auro Native on PCM because something in the Android mixer prevents bit perfect multichannel PCM playback (Known issue). The DTS HD based Auro tracks should work with the Shield.

I would try the Samsung player with the original disc to troubleshoot first (Ensure the Samsung is set to bitstream with secondary audio disabled). The AV10 should be reporting something like Auro 11.1 when Auro Native is detected but I dont know that model. The channel callouts on the V2 disc will make it very obvious if Auro Native is working.

Reactions: 1

Saturn2888

Discussion Starter · #10 · 6 d ago

Krobar said:
The Shield will not work for Auro Native on PCM because something in the Android mixer prevents bit perfect multichannel PCM playback (Known issue). The DTS HD based Auro tracks should work with the Shield.

I would try the Samsung player with the original disc to troubleshoot first (Ensure the Samsung is set to bitstream with secondary audio disabled). The AV10 should be reporting something like Auro 11.1 when Auro Native is detected but I dont know that model. The channel callouts on the V2 disc will make it very obvious if Auro Native is working.

I'll try the first disc on my Samsung Blu-ray player. It's definitely in Bitstream. I only tried the second disc from the player.

What about Roku Ultra? Does it do AURO-3D? In fact, which devices support AURO-3D Native output?

Krobar

· #11 · 6 d ago

Saturn2888 said:
I'll try the first disc on my Samsung Blu-ray player. It's definitely in Bitstream. I only tried the second disc from the player.

What about Roku Ultra? Does it do AURO-3D? In fact, which devices support AURO-3D Native output?

I actually have a Roku Ultra but in general they are not considered good for file based streaming. No specific support is required for Auro Native, the device just needs to output bit perfect multichannel PCM or DTS HD MA.

I use a Windows based HTPC with Kodi set to WASAPI HDMI output. This works for both DTS HD and PCM based Auro Native (As long as the software volume is at 100%). The nice thing about PCM based Auro Native is you use Flac format which is good for music. No Dolby Vision support with Windows.

Most Bluray players, Oppo etc do bit perfect output as well. A few Auro music productions are in Auro 8.0 which is PCM 4.0 based. PCM 4.0 support is generally bad outside of Bluray players although I dont think there are any Auro 8.0 PCM samples on the Volume 2 disc.

Reactions: 1

Saturn2888

Discussion Starter · #12 · 6 d ago

Krobar said:
I actually have a Roku Ultra but in general they are not considered good for file based streaming. No specific support is required for Auro Native, the device just needs to output bit perfect multichannel PCM or DTS HD MA.

I use a Windows based HTPC with Kodi set to WASAPI HDMI output. This works for both DTS HD and PCM based Auro Native (As long as the software volume is at 100%). The nice thing about PCM based Auro Native is you use Flac format which is good for music. No Dolby Vision support with Windows.

Most Bluray players, Oppo etc do bit perfect output as well. A few Auro music productions are in Auro 8.0 which is PCM 4.0 based. PCM 4.0 support is generally bad outside of Bluray players although I dont think there are any Auro 8.0 PCM samples on the Volume 2 disc.

I also have a PC hooked up, but it behaved the same way as the NVIDIA SHIELD on an RTX 3090. I also have my volume in Windows set to 100%.

So you're saying I need Kodi? Would Plex in Windows work?

Krobar

· #13 · 6 d ago

Saturn2888 said:
I also have a PC hooked up, but it behaved the same way as the NVIDIA SHIELD on an RTX 3090. I also have my volume in Windows set to 100%.

So you're saying I need Kodi? Would Plex in Windows work?

Not sure about Plex. For Kodi, use the standard Kodi WIndows installer from the official site:
Download | Kodi

The important settings are described here:
Settings/System/Audio - Official Kodi Wiki

Both the output device AND passthrough output device need to be set to WASAPI: HDMI (Will likely include Nvidia or something similar in the name too)
Output Configaration: Best Match
Output Channels: 7.1

bryantc

· #14 · 6 d ago

2

Saturn2888 said:
Looking through the audio files, many of them are 7.1 PCM and the others are DTS-HD MA 5.1 and 7.1. There are no files I've found so far that are natively AURO-3D.

Correct. Auro 3d is not "native" in this sense. It is metadata on top of a PCM or DTS track.

Saturn2888 said:
IMAX Enhanced content is just a modified DTS:X, but it still shows up differently in my pre-pro without me touching anything. From what I've tested, I need to enable the AURO-3D upmixer when watching AURO-3D content just like I would with Dolby Pro Logic and Pro Logic II.

Am I wrong?

No this is normal on Denon/Marantz. You have to select the Auro3d sound mode. Check your input display to verify what channels you are getting.

This is what the Red Tails 11.1 Auro3d soundtrack looks like depending on what sound mode you choose:

Font Multimedia Display device Screenshot Electric blue

Font Electronic device Multimedia Electric blue Screenshot

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Reactions: 1

sajihassan

· #15 · 5 d ago

I am also facing the same problem. Have to manually up mix to Auro-3D. The player is Oppo 203 and the processor is Lyngdorf MP-60 2.1. I think it's the disc problem.

Reactions: 1

Krobar

· #16 · 5 d ago

sajihassan said:
I am also facing the same problem. Have to manually up mix to Auro-3D. The player is Oppo 203 and the processor is Lyngdorf MP-60 2.1. I think it's the disc problem.

It will only be a disc problem if you have purchased the wrong disc (A disc which does not have an Auro Native sound track)

Reactions: 1

Saturn2888

Discussion Starter · #17 · 4 d ago

Krobar said:
It will only be a disc problem if you have purchased the wrong disc (A disc which does not have an Auro Native sound track)

I dunno about @sajhassan, but my discs came straight from the Auro-3D website.

Cal1981

· #18 · 4 d ago

As far as I know, the only place where native Auro-3D has been used in disc releases is Europe and mostly Germany. The two German releases that I'm familiar with are Dragon Heart and Twister. It's been a non-starter in the US but the Auro-3D up-mixer can be very valuable. I have a 5.1.4 system with SVS Prime Elevations as front and rear Heights. I had to play around with their wall mounts to get them pointing as close to a 30 degree angle as I could. It's a compromise since I don't want to drill holes in my ceiling and but after audyssey did its thing, some adjustments in the Elevation's levels resulted in a very nice level of immersion. I find, however, that a fair number of Atmos tracks aren't what they're cracked up to be and that Neural:X and Auro-3D can make a significant improvements in the volume and dynamics of the audio. My Denon x3800 lets you adjust the stength of Auro-3D to suit your own tastes which comes in handy.

Reactions: 1

Krobar

· #19 · 3 d ago

Saturn2888 said:
I dunno about @sajhassan, but my discs came straight from the Auro-3D website.

Did Kodi work for you? I'm guessing the Nvidia Shield worked for DTS HD MA + Auro Native but not PCM + Auro Native.

Saturn2888

Discussion Starter · #20 · 2 d ago

Krobar said:
Did Kodi work for you? I'm guessing the Nvidia Shield worked for DTS HD MA + Auro Native but not PCM + Auro Native.

I haven't tried Kodi yet. Was that on the SHIELD or in Windows?

I setup Plex in Windows with bitstream, and even then, it wouldn't play native Auro-3D from either PCM or DTS files. Something's wonky here. Same issue on the SHIELD.

In Plex on Windows, it'd even play that PCM in 2-channel mode and get stuck in that mode until I played a different bitstream format. Strange!

Is this a Plex issue or something else?

When not using Plex, it activates DTS-HD MA for the DTS files and DTS:X for the PCM files. I'm assuming it's DTS:X because my sound mode for spatial audio is DTS:X in Windows.

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