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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I spent the last couple of days working with the Womble trial and my registered Tsunami TDA. Here's the problem. Data transfer is taking forever. Maybe there is a better way. I'm using programs dubbed to RAM from the Panny 85 and 95. I am working on a 2 part PBS program so there is not a lot commercial editing, just adding chapters and selecting thumbnails.

I read the DVD-RTAV file from the RAM disc to select each program within TDA. TDA then recommends writing the mpg file to the hard drive. Here is the first time eater.

The editing is next. Straight forward, no problem here. I use one of the standard templates for the menu to keep it simple.

Now the next time eater, write the disc image file to the hard drive, about 28 minutes here.

Then the burning process. This is drive and media dependent but still takes about 20 minutes.

Am I missing a trick? The three steps of writing is taking forever. I could reload the RAM files back to the Panny, edit and do a simple menu (without the chapter level which is why I'm doing this program in TDA), and then redub back to -R in a lot less time. Is anyone editing the files directly on the RAM disc. I'm afraid to edit the source file until I know I have a safety level.
 

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Kelson is the one to ask/answer. He recommended TDA to me and I've only used it once or twice in trial version. Just bought it but haven't had the time to practice with it. It's possible with practice things will go faster. Changing Ram format to -R proably requires re-encoding. If so, that does take time. Burning to disc however is more dependent on the speed of the burner as well as the media.


BTW I also tried Womble which I didn't like. Takes forever to do anything and it can't createsubmenu for the chapters..
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I am hoping Kelson will jump on this.

There shouldn't be any recoding because I'm extracting the MPEG2 files from the DVD-RTAV folder and staying in the MPEG2 domain throughout the editing process. It's this 3 steps of writing the files that is the pain.


I spent all day day with Womble. I don't think I'll be using it to edit material captured on the DVD recorder. It is is much harder to find the black frame between segments than it is with TDA. It does have nice editing tools like dissolves and fades and I can scroll through the video faster than TDA but finding the edit point is harder. I'm going to try Video ReDo next because it claims to have an automated commercial editor option. I assume it seeks the black frames.
 

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Try dragging and dropping the entire DVD_RTAV file from the RAM disc to the HDD, then point TDA to the DVD_RTAV file. Everything should run a lot faster. Yeah, it will take between 15 to 30 mins (max) to get the RTAV folder onto your harddrive (about the same time it takes to do a high speed dub to DVD RAM), but once its there all the TDA functions will go faster since you are not then pulling files from or accessing the RAM disc. Don't know why burning to DVD-R is taking 20 min, should be about 8 to 15 min for a 4x/8x burn. When you are done you can just delete the DVD_RTAV file from your HDD if you wish. (Also, when you first dub the DVD_RTAV file to the HDD you've then freed up the RAM disc for more recording). That's generally how I do it. Drag and drop the DVD_RTAV and then go off and do something else. Come back and TDA away. I actually have a USB/Firewire drive that I use as a que to drag and drop DVD_RTAVs to for authoring and even archiving, then when I have time, I come back and author the various DVD_RTAVs using TDA. This also has the added advantage of being able to freely mix and match programs from various RAM discs to a single DVD-R without having to swap RAM discs and import each time and the RAMs are freed up for recording. Good luck.
 

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My apologies vferrari. Didn't know you also use TDA. So Ram is RTAV just like RW disc. I also import the entire DVD into the HDD and go from there. I use my main 200 gig HDD. I'd use my extra 200 gig HDD but it's filled with movies I'm backing up.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Davis
So Ram is RTAV just like RW disc.
Yes, all VR mode discs regardless of type (RAM or -RW) use the same DVD_RTAV/vro file structure. Comparing RAM vs. -RW in a nutshell: -RAM is generally more robust than -RW (more rewrite cycles allowed/physical protection via carts), but is recorded exclusively in VR mode on all RAM compatible standalone DVDRecorders. -RW has the advantage that it can be recorded as either VR mode (for editing) or Video mode (for playback compatibility).
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
My 20 minutes for the DVD burn is because I am being very conservative and using 4x on 16x media with a 16x burner. (Read too many horror stories from people burning media only to find high failure rates in a very short time.) I'm using the data verification option on ImgTool Burner also which takes almost as long as the burning. The time for burning the DVD-R would happen on the PC or the set top. I guess the main issue I have is the time it takes to create the disc image to the hard drive. If TDA would burn directly to disc, it would eliminate that step. I can't find a way to do that even though TDA has a burning tool option.
 

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Most DVD Authoring applications have to create the DVD-Video file structure on HDD first before burning to disc (other applications, however, don't split up the process between creation of the file structure on HDD and the final burn from that "image"). The reason this is done rather than burning to disc on-the-fly is precisely to preclude the burn errors that you, yourself painstakingly try to avoid through the other precautions you take during the burn process. The vob's and ifo pointer files have to be created first before you can burn them, otherwise you risk an error if you try to create the file structure while at the same time attempting to burn it to disc. If anything, I wish you could just tell TDA to automatically continue on with the burn once the file structure has been created. But it really doesn't take more time than other apps, provide you are there to start the burn process once the file structure is created.
 

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vferrari... Ram cost is also a factor. Best Buy had a 10 pack w/o carts for $30.00. That's $150.00 for fifty vs $35.00 for -RW. I would go with Ram with carts as they are less likely to be physically damaged in handling and have their merits over -/+ R/RW. But, it hasn't been accepted by the majority of people. IMHO, if Panasonic recorders could only record on Ram they probably wouldn't sell a 10th of what they're selling. They are to DVD recording like Sony Beta was to VHS or Apple was to Windows. Superior but the average Joe couldn't understand the advantages of better PQ(or stability of Apple OS and superiority of graphics apps) or accept the way Beta and Apple were marketed.


Sunnycrest... be patient, especially with your Home Movies of family events. I have yet to complete my project of transferring 55 'Home Videos' in VHS and 8mm to DVD. Trying out apps like, Roxio, Womble, Intervideo, Sonic and TDA which I think is the winner.


Not satisfied with the results of the 20 VHS transfers made from VHS to my Sharp 300 standalone. Partly due to the Sharp and its' BLB or the fact that I dubbed them in 4 hour mode hoping to reduce the number of final DVD's. I'm also using a new VHS recorder that IMO adds video noise by sharpening the picture.


Have only practiced with one Home Video dubbed to the Sharp and put in my computer to edit make menu, etc with TDA. Right now don't have the time as getting the house in order to sell it.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Davis
cost is also a factor. Best Buy had a 10 pack w/o carts for $30.00. That's $150.00 for fifty vs $35.00 for -RW
Agreed, cost is a factor. But I think you are looking at two extremes. Where are [quality, brand name] RW's regularly selling at $35 for $50? I usually see them at best buy for $10 bucks in a 5-pack or $20 bucks in a 10-pack. I've also bought DVD-RAM at best buy for $15 for a 10-pack which was cheaper than the DVD-RW's it was sitting next to. I think the best you can say is that DVD-RW has the slight edge cost wise vs. DVD-RAM with an avg. cost around $2/disc.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jay Davis
IMHO, if Panasonic recorders could only record on Ram they probably wouldn't sell a 10th of what they're selling.
Couldn't agree with you more. Just as if Pioneer (or anyone else) sold recorders that only recorded to DVD-RW, they would be hosed as well. Point is, everyone sells multi-disc format DVD recorders nowadays so the DVD-RAM, -RW debate is really moot. I personally call it a wash and that was the point of my previous post. Both formats have their plusses and minuses (no pun intended). ;)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by vferrari
Yeah, it will take between 15 to 30 mins (max) to get the RTAV folder onto your harddrive (about the same time it takes to do a high speed dub to DVD RAM)
OR use DVD-RW instead to reduce the time it takes to less than 10mins, usually around 7mins. DVD-RAM is great but the speed is just too damn slow.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
shawbros, My Pannys can not write to DVD-RW, wish they could. The non-HDD Pioneer I have stopped recognizing RW discs so I can only use it to record to -R.

Any new machine considered will have to have lots of media compatibility.


Does anyone know where to get 5x DVD-RAM?
 

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I finally stumbled across this thread. VF covered most of it I don't have much to add other than my experiences. As noted RAM is slow. I have a 5X drive which reads Panasonic 3X RAMs at about 3.5X and most other DVDs at 7X. Sometimes I'll pull over the whole RTAV folder like Vic does if I want to use all the content it contains and other times I'll just let TDA import it off the RAM to the HDD if I don't want it all. It helps to have a nice big HDD if you are going to do video editing on a PC.


I tend to do a lot, if not most, of my editing (commercial sniping) directly on the RAM using Panasonic's DVD Movie Album (DMA). Since that wipes out 1/3 of the video file it effectively speeds up the transfer to HDD when I want to author with TDA. TDA has a nice editor for snipping that I like working with, but my one knock on it is the lack of an .mpg Export option. TDA's editor doesn't modify the source files but rather builds a cut list which it applies when it builds the .VOB files during authoring. It would be real nice to have an .mpg Export option so that you can save a copy of the edited clip as an .MPG for when you want to use it in another project. That's why I use DMA a lot. It's a real shame Movie Album is not generally available because it's a great utility that is actually very fast to use and I know of no other application (and I've looked) that can edit the .VRO directly on the RAM.


The processing time for TDA to author is a function of how much horsepower your PC has. I have a 2.6 GHz CPU/1 gig RAM. TDA generally takes 4-5 min to author a 40 min video clip (1 hr episode sans commercials). Your burn time sounds about right. I like to use DVD Decrypter to do my burns because it has a verify cycle -- a 4X burn of a full DVD-R generally takes ~23 min (15 min/burn + 8 min/verify).
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Thanks Kelson. You pretty much confirmed everything I am finding. My processor is a 3.06ghz with 1gb of memory and tons of hard drive space but everything in this process is i/o constrained, not cycles constraint. It just takes time to read and write using 3x RAM. I sure wish DMA was available because everyone that has used it raves.


My couple of days with Womble has been useful and informative. I don't think I'm sold enough to pop for the license. I have another 10 days on the free version. I found it more useful for fixing some MPEG-1 files I had that had GOP errors. It has some automated fixing tools that seem to work well. The transition editing tool is nice. I like it much better than Pinnacle Studio. While a multi-segment video is playing, I can drop the transition down just ahead of the playback and it seemlessly flows in. But as I said in my earlier post, editing out commercials is a small pain. You can scroll through the video quickly but you don't have the frame by frame timeline that TDA has for selecting the exact black frame to insert the edit point. If something combined the functionality of the two programs, it would be ideal.


I'm next going to try the trial of Video ReDo because of it's claim for an automated commercial finder tool.


If anyone knows where I can get 5X ram, I would appreciate knowing.
 

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vferrari.... Compared to + RW...-4X-RW are hard to find. A few months ago Newegg was selling them 25 for $30.00 with no returns. When they wouldn't work in my 2X Sharp 300 and I complained they sent me 25 more of the same brand for nothing. Shortly after that we learned that the -/dash consortium in their infinite wisdom changed the write strategy starting with 4X making the 75 discs uncompatible until I got a 4X computer burner.


Currently Supermediastore.com has a 50 pack of Ritek/Ridata for $37.00. Verbatim DataLife 2X-RW for $1.90 each(about what Ram goes for).


Newegg has 2X-RW Verbatims Movie Reel 3 pack for $10.99 and Samsung 4X-RW 5 packs for $5.99


CDW has TDK 4X-RW 5 pack for $9.11. Verbatim 10 pack for $16.84.


As you can see the better quality Verbatims are almost half as expensive as Ram when not on sale. When Ram is as currently reported below it's a great deal.


BB has a special (at some stores) on Ram discs. Check a recent thread in this forum. $5.00 for a 10 pack=unbelievable. Office Depot is also clearing their stock out in certain stores. 'Clearance' price makes me wonder if they are no longer going to sell them.


Kelson and Sunnycrest...I also have a 3000 computer with 1 gig Ram and 200 gig HDD and 8X DL Sony DVD burner built in. Have an extra 200 gig external HDD as well as the Plextor PX-716 external DVD burner. Using or will use TDA when I get a chance. Just have patience.
 
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