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Like your computer the Pioneer will automatically create chapter marks at scene changes when importing from your camcorder via Firewire. They also are easy to change in the editing menus.


The commercial skip is a button to skip forward past commercials during playback. As you noted, it doesn't automatically notice the presence of commercials and pause recording. People would be really miffed whenever it guessed wrong. But unlike the VCR's you can go back later and remove the commercials when recording to the HDD or a VR-mode DVD. A chapter marker is automatically inserted where you edit out content.


The Pioneer will insert a chapter marker whenever you press the pause key during recording.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy
Like your computer the Pioneer will automatically create chapter marks at scene changes when importing from your camcorder via Firewire. They also are easy to change in the editing menus.
Thanks for the reply. That's good and changing the markers is simple but I'm more concerned with the below since it's MUCH more work...

Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy
The commercial skip is a button to skip forward past commercials during playback. As you noted, it doesn't automatically notice the presence of commercials and pause recording. People would be really miffed whenever it guessed wrong. But unlike the VCR's you can go back later and remove the commercials when recording to the HDD or a VR-mode DVD. A chapter marker is automatically inserted where you edit out content.
Actually I don't think anyone would be miffed if it guessed wrong since the fast forward feature would just fast forward to the next marker in the same way on the VCR. You could stop it by hitting play if you see the picture going past the program returning. Doesn't TIVO and other DVRs have this feature? My friends who have TIVO tell me it does and they love the commercial skipping feature.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy
The Pioneer will insert a chapter marker whenever you press the pause key during recording.
Two issues:

(1) I'll be using the DVR to record programs I'm not watching live, as I would expect most uses. I'd have to watch the program again and manuall edit every single time.

(2) More problematic, I don't see any "divide chapter" or "create chapter" button like apparently there is on the Toshiba XS34 remote per the manual I just downloaded. Thus you'll have to screw up the live recording if you're viewing to press pause and then pause again to get back to recording just to create a chapter. That's not good if you're recording stuff like music and want to create easy chapters between songs.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by HealeyGuy
Like your computer the Pioneer will automatically create chapter marks at scene changes when importing from your camcorder via Firewire. They also are easy to change in the editing menus.


The commercial skip is a button to skip forward past commercials during playback. As you noted, it doesn't automatically notice the presence of commercials and pause recording. People would be really miffed whenever it guessed wrong. But unlike the VCR's you can go back later and remove the commercials when recording to the HDD or a VR-mode DVD. A chapter marker is automatically inserted where you edit out content.


The Pioneer will insert a chapter marker whenever you press the pause key during recording.
In addition to what you've already mentioned, my understanding is the 533HS will automatically insert chapter markers (every 10 or 15 minutes, depending on my preferences) on a V mode DVD that has not been dubbed with High Speed Mode. Can someone confirm this? Also, is there anyway to have chapters automatically inserted on the HDD? Do I have to change the HDD from VR to V mode to do this?
 

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slinky, I just compared the 633's manual with my 510. I wasn't aware that you don't have the "chapter" button on your remote. I can press this button during regular fullscreen playback from the HDD or VR DVD and it will place a chapter marker. I wonder if this would work on the 633 if someone added this command to a programmable remote.


I misunderstood what you want the Pioneer to automatically do with commercials. What you have is the commercial skip button. Press it quickly as many times as you need to skip up to 10 minutes ahead in your program. It's not like having a chapter marker, but it is a quick way to jump past commercials (it is really useful when marking commercials for cutting in the Edit menu). I also use this button to skip the huddles in football games.


Probepro - I don't know. The manual says automatic chapters are added to video-mode recordings so it may work if the HDD is set to that format. Let us know what you find out.
 

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I have the Pioneer 531 and I don't think there is any way to have it automatically create chapters on the HDD. It will automatically create chapters writing to a DVD other than in high speed dub mode.


I use the comercial skip button in chapter edit mode to quickly go thru a HDD movie to add chapters (10 min intervals) manually. Takes me about 2 minutes for a 2 hour movie. Its very easy to trim the end(s) of a movie, change title if necessary and set the thumbnail on the Pioneer. I then high speed dub it a DVD-R for keeps. I love the high speed dub (about 8 minutes for me) and try to always record in the right FR mode for best fit on a DVD-R.


I was shocked when I first discovered this lack of auto HDD chapter creation, but it turns out that Pioneer is not the only HDD model that works this way. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
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Originally Posted by Oldemanphil
I have the Pioneer 531 and I don't think there is any way to have it automatically create chapters on the HDD. It will automatically create chapters writing to a DVD other than in high speed dub mode. ;)
The Pioneer and Toshiba will both automatically create chapter markers every 10 or 15 minutes, the latter also gives you a 5 minute option. I find this not very useful. How does TIVO allow auto chapter points to edit out commercials as well as most old VCRs?

Quote:
I use the comercial skip button in chapter edit mode to quickly go thru a HDD movie to add chapters (10 min intervals) manually.
Ah... now you are talking - what commercial skip button are we talking about? I don't see it anywhere in edit mode. I think you are talking about the "go 10 minutes forward or 3 minutes back" buttons.... ah, the manul does suck. Playing around I realize that the commercial skip button is auto set for 30 seconds so I think this is what it does - goes fast forward 30 second spots. That's fine. It was just so hard to find.

Quote:
I was shocked when I first discovered this lack of auto HDD chapter creation, but it turns out that Pioneer is not the only HDD model that works this way. ;)
Yes, which is what is really ticking me off.

Quote:
Originally Posted by HealyGuy
I misunderstood what you want the Pioneer to automatically do with commercials. What you have is the commercial skip button. Press it quickly as many times as you need to skip up to 10 minutes ahead in your program. It's not like having a chapter marker, but it is a quick way to jump past commercials (it is really useful when marking commercials for cutting in the Edit menu). I also use this button to skip the huddles in football games.
I don't see any CHAPTER MARK button on the Pioneer 633 at all and it baffles me why they would remove it from the remote - editing is already a chore. I don't see any way you can add a chapter mark while the recording is occurring either. Anyone find out how you can do index/chapter markers while the 633 is recording?


Personally, I think Pioneer did a really lazy job on the manual although the layout looks pretty. Form over substance.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
OK... the answer is that Pioneer has apparently REMOVED THE CHAPTER INSERT BUTTON from the DVR-633-HS and the DVR-533HS!!!!! What this means is that you if you watching the program, you cannot simply click the "chapter insert" button to insert a mark. Instead, you have to wait until after the program is over. Then you have the joy of pulling it up, viewing it in a tiny box on the top left corner of the window and manually placing in edit points as you scroll through the video.

What a major step back this is. I discovered this by downloading the manual to the Pioneer DVR-520-HS which apparently has this button on the remote, as does the 510. It is called "CHP Mark" and it will flash an icon on the screen to show you that a chapter mark has been inserted. My Sony VCR I bought 6 years ago has this. The $500 DVR does not and will require numerous keypresses. How incredibly DUMB or Pioneer is playing games and wants you to buy the next model that has this essential button.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
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Originally Posted by aydu
They must think that people would rarely watch and record at the same time.
Even editing is challenging. You have to watch in that silly little box on the top left for all features. You can't enjoy the broadcast again and index markers as you are watching it, as was the case in prior models. Adding insult to injury, it's more unnecessary keypresses too.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by slinky
Even editing is challenging. You have to watch in that silly little box on the top left for all features. You can't enjoy the broadcast again and index markers as you are watching it, as was the case in prior models. Adding insult to injury, it's more unnecessary keypresses too.
It seems to me they are making it quite a bit more difficult and less convenient to get past those blessed commercials. Technology exists to automatically skip past the commercials upon playback, but we'll never see it. Replay TV had it when it first came out -- then got sued over it.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
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Originally Posted by Kelson
It seems to me they are making it quite a bit more difficult and less convenient to get past those blessed commercials. Technology exists to automatically skip past the commercials upon playback, but we'll never see it. Replay TV had it when it first came out -- then got sued over it.
It seems to be only the Pioneer 533 and 633 have left out the obvious and necessary "chapter insert" indexing button for playback and recording as the Toshiba XS34 seems to have this option.


This is SO dumb and a dealbreaker for me because I don't have the time to waste finding edit points needlessly. I could even live with the crappy TVGOS implmentation as there is a manual timer whose function seems reliable and I'm sure they'll provide a fix if there is a real problem like many are reporting of skipping programs (only TVGOS.) Regarding commercials you are right - if you are watching a program you're recording, you can't hit the index to mark commercials in and out or even great plays if you're watching sports. But it's even worse - if you want to transfer old VHS movies to DVD and are watching and enjoying an old recording, you can't just hit index at the points you want to edit. You'll have to then rewatch the entire recording in a tiny little box on the top corner just to find the edit points. Then you'll have to press buttons repeatedly because the "edit points" are not created on the fly and it actually pauses the playback.
 

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Speaking of chapter marking. Am I the only one who when editing a cable movie for dubbing to DVD adds scene break chapter marks? Rather than the standard every 5 or 10 minutes marks, I scan for scene breaks and insert chapter marks there. My Panasonic has the chapter mark button so I can do that in standard playback mode. I can do it also in the chapter edit mode.

For commerical TV shows, I just go with the chapter marks where I deleted the commercials. Too bad there is no good way to edit the commercials that run at the bottom of the screen during the program. Bravo is really bad at that. My West Wing episodes are full of those. Clearly, those networks know a lot of people are TIVOing out the commercials and now they know people will get frustrated and just buy the DVD's of the full season as I have done with West Wing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
You are far from the only one. I think many who want to edit videos they are/have recorded from their VCR or a prior program would like to set markers while viewing it. The "find scene change" markers are invaluable and such a time saver. Most video editing software pacakages include this feature too. I'd be using my DVR for my VCR transfers and DV mastering... or at least I was going to.


What doesn't make sense is that you won't see the commercials anyways with the 30 second skip buttons so why bother making it difficult. It's an inane compromise and with the invasion into legitimate uses of these features I've found myself caring less about the ethics, morality and prevention of piracy...
 

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I'm close to getting either the 531 or the XP34,so this a big question for me:The Toshiba definately has the chapter insert button?If so,that would probably set my choice.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by lonwolf615
I'm close to getting either the 531 or the XP34,so this a big question for me:The Toshiba definately has the chapter insert button?If so,that would probably set my choice.
Yes, the Toshiba XS34 has the chapter button on the remote and also has an edge on picture quality as well.
 

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New Sony recorders have feature called Intelligent Chaptering. It allows automatically to make chapter marks on each scene change while recording to HDD. BUT, as I know, these chapter marks don't retain after dubbing onto DVD.


ArtS :cool:
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
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Originally Posted by shawbros
Yes, the Toshiba XS34 has the chapter button on the remote and also has an edge on picture quality as well.
How does the Toshiba have a "picture quality" edge? I've seen varying opinions, usually in favor of the DVR owned by the poster.


Regarding the differences between the two, neither is perfect and the only very large difference I can see is that the 533/633 has double layer recording ability, if you need/want to get twice the amount of data onto a DVD for long movies. They are expensive disks though and I don't know how many players are capable of playing the ones produced by these DVRs. Toshiba records on DVD RAM which are a bit more expensive than regular media, last longer but may not be compatible with those players that can play them.


Other than that, differences seem minor with the Toshiba consuming more power and having a louder fan (concern if in small rooms), has a more convoluted way of simply getting to the manual timer, has a bit of a cluttered remote although you can do more using the remote and can also perform more editing tasks.


As much as I don't want to do so, I may wait a bit and see what else is coming out on the market shortly.
 

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Orginally posted in DVDRHELP under obscure topic:


I have a Pioneer 531. Great machine, if you're willing to spend a little time learning how it works. I think this is true of all HDD recorders.


It will NOT create automatic chapters when recording to hard disk (HDD). It WILL when recording from external source directly to DVD.


It will NOT create automatic chapters when doing a high speed dub to DVD. However, manually added chapter markers ARE retained on the HS dubbed DVD (unlike the Sony see above).


Real time conversion dubs to DVD DO create automatic chapters. If you record to HDD (in xp or xp+ mode) and then do a real time conversion dub to DVD (in SP or whatever) it will then create automatic chapters on the DVD.


I love the time saving high speed dub, so I record to HDD in a mode that will fit on a DVD. Edit it: trim ends, select thumbnail, and manually add chapters. An 8 minute HS dub, erase from HDD and I'm done. I work in video mode (no VR) only.


I have several non-HDD DVD recorders, but the flexibility and picture quality of this HDD Pioneer 531 is spoiling me. I don't use the Pioneers EPG (refuses to load via my cable box). My Time-Warner digital cable box's VCR Commander function is able to control recording on the Pioneer.


Your mileage may vary

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Phil - thanks for the comments. I think the real pain with the 531 series (you tell me, I bought a 633) is that they removed the chapter edit button. Even if you don't have automatic scene change detection you also can't just put in chapter indexes while viewing the video you recorded. This means that you can enjoy the recording but then have to watch it all over again in that tiny edit box to create chapters and index points to snip portions of the video. Why you need to do this and also have a tiny edit box to view the video is beyond me.


PQ is very good although from some sources (I suspect the source) I'm getting a good amount of macroblocking. What's your editing experience per the above?
 
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