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Discussion Starter #1
Fairly interesting reading with lots of measurements. SVS is a surprise and shows why I'm beyond happy with my dual Servo 15. Funnily enough I sold the two sig 15s and went back to the originals a few months ago. Still amongst the most accurate for music.




SVS PC Ultra


http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....t=0&rid=0&SQ=0



Velodyne DD-18

http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....t=0&rid=0&SQ=0



SVS: 20-39 PC Plus (12Hz tune)


http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....t=0&rid=0&SQ=0


Paradigm Servo 15


http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....t=0&rid=0&SQ=0



SVS: 20-39 PC Plus (20Hz tune, measured horizontally)

Very similar results to Round 1. There was about an extra 1dB available at the bottom end due to the ports being slightly closer to the mic, but conversely the top end rolled off slightly quicker because the driver was further away. The response of this sub still worries me in this tune. 23Hz is some 7dB louder than 80Hz. With room gain in the average UK living room, the 20-40Hz octave is going to dominate over the 40-80Hz octave so much that you are going to be forced to start applying some fairly aggressive EQ from a BFD/SMS-1 to try and keep the thing in balance. Distortion is quite high at the top end, and I still cannot explain the 120Hz 'resonance' in this mode. In a subsequent test I performed at home, I tried removing the baseplate to see if that was it. Nope. We would need to do a whole lot more experiments to pin down the source exactly.


SVS: 20-39 PC Plus (12Hz tune)

I think you get a better balanced frequency response result with this tuning. Admittedly, overall output is rather limited and the 100dB sweep shows a pronounced 'sag' because the amp is still recovering from the 10-15Hz part of the sweep you cannot see on the plot.


Genelec: HTS4

I was hoping for great things from this sub. It has a nice flat response, but compression starts to set in a little earlier, and distortion rises rather quicker than I was expecting. It would be interesting to see how the newer HTS4B model compares.


Paradigm: Ultracube 10

An interesting little unit this with 1 active and 2 passive drivers. Pretty good extension to below 25Hz for a small 10" unit although there is quite severe power compression apparent. Distortion is not too bad considering. Group delay is a little higher than I would like at the bottom end making this sub a little sluggish.


Velodyne: SPL800 Series 1

Simple physics means you are never going to be able to get a huge amount of bass out of a box this size. Within its limits, the compression is tolerable and the distortion is not completely OTT like some of the subs we have measured.


Paradigm: PS1000

Interesting 'band-pass' design this one. Considering we had the crossover set to 150HZ, the rolloff from 80Hz up was very steep. It actually went quite loud, but distortion does tend to take off at the bottom end.


Velodyne: SPL800-R (Results to follow shortly)

More to say about this one shortly...


Paradigm: PDR12

This is at the more budget end of Paradigm's range. It produced a reasonable amount of output, but little below 32Hz. Not great for organ buffs like me! Distortion is pretty high but group delay is not bad. Bit like a REL really!


Velodyne: HGS18

The results speak for themselves. In many ways better than the DD18. Maybe a tad higher distortion than with the digital servo, but a flatter frequency response. Really good results.


Paradigm: Signature Servo

Maybe we are being slightly unfair to this sub because we used a stepdown transformer, but the power compression results would tend to indicate that this sub is going to mess around with relative dynamics well before you hit the endstops. Also distortion is well controlled below 20Hz but is higher than I would expect from a servo design from 50Hz upwards. In many ways this is not really a move ahead for Paradigm over the original Servo 15. It does look stunning in birdseye maple though!




Genelec HTS4


http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....t=0&rid=0&SQ=0


All tests and conclusions:


http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....&SQ=1121598092




REL Stampede:

We couldn't get a huge amount out of this one, its only 100W after all. The bass rolloff is quite smooth and gentle so it should have tolerable extension in-room despite the fact the rolloff starts a bit early. The striking thing is the enormous amount of distortion being generated - below 50Hz it really takes off. Group delay is quite low and linear in nature. This characteristic is shared by several of the subs that are considered 'musical'. Perhaps this is more important than low distortion? The ETF Spectrogram is pretty clean, mirroring the Group Delay behaviour.


Acoustic Energy Aegis Evo:

A bit of a funny one this. It is clearly designed to work with its partnering Aegis Evo speakers - I assume the rolloff at the top end is designed to match the crossover behaviour of the other speakers. It didn't go hugely loud but the bass rolloff is smooth and gentle so should give decent bass extension in-room. Group delay and ETF Spectrogram are good pointing to a decently clean sound.


Velodyne DD18:

The bass rolloff is interesting. In my room, as I pointed out in the introduction, it is virtually flat down to 15Hz without applying any EQ boost. In a larger room, then it might be necessary to apply some EQ to keep the bass from rolling off, but at least the DD series gives you the EQ tools with which to do this. Another thing worthy of note is that this is an 18" woofer and here it is with so little rolloff at the top end, so it would have no trouble integrating with some quite small satellites. The other thing to say is that measured distortion in-room is even lower at the bottom end because room-gain tends to boost the fundamental more than the harmonics (true of all the subs, but the ground-plane measure gives a true baseline measure of distortion, unaffected by the room, that can be compared between subs). Eric and I have done further testing on the DD18 changing the servo setting and the subsonic filter slope and managed to get even more out of the beast, albeit at the expense of slightly higher levels of distortion.


Velodyne CHT-10R:

This one goes bl**dy loud for its size! It hasn't got great bass extension, even in-room, but it does produce a lot of bang for the buck, with decent distortion levels if you don't push it too hard. Interesting that the 3rd harmonic seems to predominate below 25Hz, although it has to be said there's not much output down there anyway. Group delay is nudging the limits, and it can be a little slower than some in the very low bass.


SVS PC Ultra:

We tried to get a bit more out of this one, we really did! But as Jeff will attest, the driver was hitting the end-stops so we abandoned the final 105dB sweep. The distortion levels with the Ultra driver are considerably better than with the PC Plus and there isn't that annoying lump in the bass response around 23Hz that the PC Plus has. The response does tend to fall away somewhat at the top end. Group delay tends to increase around the port tuning frequency as expected.


SVS 20-39 PC Plus:

Very similar to the PC Ultra except as noted above. Group delay was slightly less than the Ultra in fact, though the ETF plot shows quite sluggish performance below about 30Hz.


Velodyne HGS10 Acrylic:

A stunning looker is this little special edition model! Performance is great too for a 10"er - it had the lowest -3dB point (17.1Hz) of all that we tested, including the mighty DD18! The response is wide and flat. The power compression is as expected for a servo design, and the distortion behaviour is not quite as good as the later DD models because it lacks the faster digital feedback. Group delay is under control and the ETF response looks clean with a little bit of sluggishness in the extreme bass. At least it plays some bass!


B&W ASW2500:

Quite a nice flat response with a gentle rolloff. It should give good extension in-room. We couldn't get an awful lot out of this one because the distortion measures went so far off-scale. Within its working envelope, the group delay and ETF show it as slightly above average for speed in this group.


Mordaunt Short MSW20:

Reasonable output. Fairly flat response with a moderate rolloff in the bass. This one won't give a huge amount of low end. Distortion is quite high, but by no means the worst here. Group delay is about average and the ETF plot is clean, albeit that there isn't a whole lot of really low bass anyway.


REL Q200E:

Not much of this response could be called flat! It rolls off at both ends. I wouldn't use this with a crossover higher than 80Hz or you will get a 'hole'. The bass rolls off far too early for room gain to help out much. Distortion is pretty high. Group delay is very low, but then again it doesn't produce any bass to speak of which is why the ETF plot looks so clean.


Paradigm Servo 15:

What can I say that hasn't already been said about this sub. How did Richer Sounds ever sell it for less than £400?? Frequency response is very wide'n'flat. Maybe a touch too flat at the extreme low end for my room and I'd need to use a BFD to tame it, but it may suit others perfectly. It didn't go hugely loud in our test. Since the limit is reached across the board, it appears to be the amplifier limiting things. Distortion and Group delay are well under control. I'm sure there are some out there that have known these things about this sub for a long time and this merely confirms the facts. Wink


MJ Acoustics Pro 50:

Some astonishing claims have been made for this little sub! Like the REL Q200E, there is little in the response that could be called flat. Roll off at both ends and little chance of much decent in-room low end. Distortion fairly high but curiously again, group delay very low giving a very clean ETF plot, albeit with little actual bass to show for it.





SVS: 20-39 PC Plus (20Hz tune, measured horizontally)

Very similar results to Round 1. There was about an extra 1dB available at the bottom end due to the ports being slightly closer to the mic, but conversely the top end rolled off slightly quicker because the driver was further away. The response of this sub still worries me in this tune. 23Hz is some 7dB louder than 80Hz. With room gain in the average UK living room, the 20-40Hz octave is going to dominate over the 40-80Hz octave so much that you are going to be forced to start applying some fairly aggressive EQ from a BFD/SMS-1 to try and keep the thing in balance. Distortion is quite high at the top end, and I still cannot explain the 120Hz 'resonance' in this mode. In a subsequent test I performed at home, I tried removing the baseplate to see if that was it. Nope. We would need to do a whole lot more experiments to pin down the source exactly.


SVS: 20-39 PC Plus (12Hz tune)

I think you get a better balanced frequency response result with this tuning. Admittedly, overall output is rather limited and the 100dB sweep shows a pronounced 'sag' because the amp is still recovering from the 10-15Hz part of the sweep you cannot see on the plot.


Genelec: HTS4

I was hoping for great things from this sub. It has a nice flat response, but compression starts to set in a little earlier, and distortion rises rather quicker than I was expecting. It would be interesting to see how the newer HTS4B model compares.


Paradigm: Ultracube 10

An interesting little unit this with 1 active and 2 passive drivers. Pretty good extension to below 25Hz for a small 10" unit although there is quite severe power compression apparent. Distortion is not too bad considering. Group delay is a little higher than I would like at the bottom end making this sub a little sluggish.


Velodyne: SPL800 Series 1

Simple physics means you are never going to be able to get a huge amount of bass out of a box this size. Within its limits, the compression is tolerable and the distortion is not completely OTT like some of the subs we have measured.


Paradigm: PS1000

Interesting 'band-pass' design this one. Considering we had the crossover set to 150HZ, the rolloff from 80Hz up was very steep. It actually went quite loud, but distortion does tend to take off at the bottom end.


Velodyne: SPL800-R (Results to follow shortly)

More to say about this one shortly...


Paradigm: PDR12

This is at the more budget end of Paradigm's range. It produced a reasonable amount of output, but little below 32Hz. Not great for organ buffs like me! Distortion is pretty high but group delay is not bad. Bit like a REL really!


Velodyne: HGS18

The results speak for themselves. In many ways better than the DD18. Maybe a tad higher distortion than with the digital servo, but a flatter frequency response. Really good results.


Paradigm: Signature Servo

Maybe we are being slightly unfair to this sub because we used a stepdown transformer, but the power compression results would tend to indicate that this sub is going to mess around with relative dynamics well before you hit the endstops. Also distortion is well controlled below 20Hz but is higher than I would expect from a servo design from 50Hz upwards. In many ways this is not really a move ahead for Paradigm over the original Servo 15. It does look stunning in birdseye maple though!
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SteveCallas
I was surprised by how much distortion and group delay there was on most of these subs at and below 25hz. Also, I was expecting the SVS tubes to be bigger - they look quite small.


Go stick one in your living room and tell me how small it is.
 

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PC+: "The response of this sub still worries me in this tune. 23Hz is some 7dB louder than 80Hz. With room gain in the average UK living room, the 20-40Hz octave is going to dominate over the 40-80Hz octave so much that you are going to be forced to start applying some fairly aggressive EQ from a BFD/SMS-1 to try and keep the thing in balance."


I have the same problem with my PB12 Ultra/2.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Prozakk
PC+: "The response of this sub still worries me in this tune. 23Hz is some 7dB louder than 80Hz. With room gain in the average UK living room, the 20-40Hz octave is going to dominate over the 40-80Hz octave so much that you are going to be forced to start applying some fairly aggressive EQ from a BFD/SMS-1 to try and keep the thing in balance."


I have the same problem with my PB12 Ultra/2.
Yea, that's in 20hz mode, in 12hz mode it rolls off 6db from 80hz to 20hz. These subs can change their native tune so their FR will change too.


Also Prozakk, your sub has a problem because of the room and you. The PB12-Ultra/2 isn't close to the same thing as a 20-39PC+. It has 2 drivers, they are different drivers and the box is designed completely different.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNICRON-WMD
Also Prozakk, your sub has a problem because of the room and you.
I didn't realize I was a 40-80hz bass trap! :eek:
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Magnepan
:D :D :D
;) :eek:
 

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I don't get why SVS wont send them some subs to test. Makes me wonder...
 

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Prozakk,


"Makes me wonder".


Who? I don't know of anyone that's reasonably competent that's asked and we've not complied.


Ron Stimpson

SVS
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Quote:
Originally Posted by Prozakk
I don't get why SVS wont send them some subs to test. Makes me wonder...
They tested some in these articles and they were less than flattering results. Group delay and limited output being issues.
 

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ronald says: Who? I don't know of anyone that's reasonably competent that's asked and we've not complied.


So this implies that these av talks people are not competent reviewers? ooohhh that hurts.
 

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I read it as he means that they have not turned anyone down for review that they did not deem was competent.

That's what I got out of it.
 

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I might be lost or something but what is the problem with the SVS subs in this test?


The only subs that did better then the SVS subs in distortion, SPL and extension were more expensive. You get what you pay for.


Also, why aren't there any Klipsch, Infinity, Contrabss, Bag End, HSU, Outlaw, etc subs in this test? Hum, Makes me wonder:p It is because the test was of subwoofers that were owned by people at AVTALK. So no company was asked for a sub to test.


And Prozakk, if there was a human bass trap, you would be it. Just re-read your "something is missing" thread.


Anyways, it looks like this thread is going to go way off track real soon! :D :D :D
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ron Stimpson
Prozakk,


"Makes me wonder".


Who? I don't know of anyone that's reasonably competent that's asked and we've not complied.


Ron Stimpson

SVS
I think you're implying the same thing as me... ;)
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNICRON-WMD
And Prozakk, if there was a human bass trap, you would be it. Just re-read your "something is missing" thread.
I absorb knowledge quite well, but bass...


Send me some of what you're on please.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by mboy
I read it as he means that they have not turned anyone down for review that they did not deem was competent.

That's what I got out of it.
Yup, that's how I read it too.
 

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Quote:
Originally Posted by UNICRON-WMD
I might be lost or something but what is the problem with the SVS subs in this test?


The only subs that did better then the SVS subs in distortion, SPL and extension were more expensive. You get what you pay for.


Also, why aren't there any Klipsch, Infinity, Contrabss, Bag End, HSU, Outlaw, etc subs in this test? Hum, Makes me wonder:p It is because the test was of subwoofers that were owned by people at AVTALK. So no company was asked for a sub to test.


Uncle Eric DID ask:
http://www.avtalk.co.uk/forum/index....&SQ=1123281347
 
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